Chris Paul

[Jonathan Watters]

So the guy gets traded and it gets rescinded because of an injury, and that tells you that the Hornets will need to include Chris Paul in order to cut salary?

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

[Tekkenlaw]

I think New Orleans would be more likely to try and get a rising star with 2-3 years left on their rookie deal to try and salvage their fanbase. Using Chris Paul to dump salary is just mind boggling, not even a drunk high McHale would pull a move like that.

[shrink]

So the guy gets traded and it gets rescinded because of an injury, and that tells you that the Hornets will need to include Chris Paul in order to cut salary?

LOL. Since you were wrong about it showing "nothing" you have to invent stuff I never said.

Try again to read my words. It shows that the Hornets are choosing to trade one of their big three, even in a play-off race. It shows that saving the money is so important, they'd risk angering Chris Paul. And despite that importance, they weren't able to complete any other trades with other teams to save that money.

Its hardly "nothing." Try reading posts, instead of assigning your feeble exaggerations.

[shrink]

The problem for New Orleans is they have one star, and few other assets. The youth from their picks, Hilton Armstrong and Julian Wright, haven't proven themselves to be anything special. they have seven players making $6 mil or more next year, and $63 mil locked up in six players for the 2010-11 season. All that's left is the #21 pick, and Devin Brown, and Rasual Butler at almost $4. That's a horribly messed up financial situation.

Meanwhile, the team is hemorraghing dollars, despite decent attendance post-Katrina. The sad fact is that there simply isn't enough revenue streams in that small market. A desperate hornets team has even created a new logo, NOLA to try to market the team to the state of Louisiana. They can't stay where they are financially, so what options do they have to move these bad contracts?

I think the most likely situation is that this team gets sold, and moved in 3-4 years. Finances make this is a desperate team.

[Jonathan Watters]

So the guy gets traded and it gets rescinded because of an injury, and that tells you that the Hornets will need to include Chris Paul in order to cut salary?

LOL. Since you were wrong about it showing "nothing" you have to invent stuff I never said.

Try again to read my words. It shows that the Hornets are choosing to trade one of their big three, even in a play-off race. It shows that saving the money is so important, they'd risk angering Chris Paul. And despite that importance, they weren't able to complete any other trades with other teams to save that money.

Its hardly "nothing." Try reading posts, instead of assigning your feeble exaggerations.

It says they are trying to cut costs. It says absolutely nothing about their willingness to part with an asset that is making them money.

Just saying that it does doesn't make it so...

You'll really need to figure this out at some point in life...

So how about actually attempting to refute my supposedly "feeble" point that you keep dodging?

[Esohny]

To be completely fair, Chris Paul just allows them to lose less money. They're in the red either way.

[Copperhead]

Why is this thread even 4 pages long? Unless Chris Paul asks to be traded, the Hornets aren't trading him. Wake up from your wet dreams.

@shrink, where are the numbers that says the Hornets are hemoragghing money? Don't show me something you've read from the ESPN talking heads but please show me actual dollar figures. The perception, or shall I say 'misperception' that people have of the Hornets in New Orleans never ceases to amaze me. It didn't help when the Hornets tried to trade Tyson for some players that can actually suit up and earn their money. Players that might not have chronic ankle injuries that will most likely be able to finish out their contracts. I guess everytime the Hornets make a move it will be because they're broke or as you say, 'hemoragghing'. I keep asking people to show me numbers but I have yet to see actual numbers instead of 'misperceptions'. There are articles out there from teams that talk about how much money they are losing. Even the Timberwolves are said to be losing money. Why don't we see these types of articles from the Hornets? What do they have to hide? Why would they hide it? They even reached benchmarks of attendance and revenue where they didn't even need state subsidies as they have in the past. But because the Hornets would rather not have to pay a lux tax, which no team wants to really do, it must be because they're broke. Yes, they even took advantage of the NBA loan that a few other teams took advantage of, for whatever reason. The Celtics and Magic are also teams that took advantage of this loan. Is it because they're "hemoragghing"? There was an article where the Magic suggested trading Hedo to try to get or stay under cap/tax. Is it because they're hemorragghing? No, I guess N.O. is the only team that's hemorragghing. Give me a break. The Hornets can sell out every single game and yet people will have this big idea about how poor and broke they must be. The Hornets are doing pretty darn good in a small market that has to share the market with another professional team. The Saints just worked out a long-term deal with the state and now that that's done, the Hornets are on their way to the table to work out there's.

http://www.nola.com/hornets/t-p/index.s ... xml&coll=1

Some reports project next season's threshold to be about $68 million, which would leave the Hornets with a luxury-tax penalty for each dollar over the threshold.

But Weber said the team isn't concerned.

Despite national media reports that the small-market Hornets would struggle financially if they had to pay the luxury tax, Weber said the team, which also has the financial backing of minority owner Gary Chouest, is on solid footing.

"The luxury tax is something that all teams are concerned about, not small-market teams, not teams in New Orleans, not teams owned by George Shinn, but all teams are concerned about the luxury tax because it is punitive," Weber said. "I think the real question is if we have to go over the luxury tax to be competitive, will we? And the answer is yes. At the same time, you have to ask yourself the question if you don't have to, we won't. . . . A lot of the speculation is that (getting under the luxury tax) is the priority, and it's not.

NO team wants to pay the lux tax if they don't have to. No matter how rich its owner(s) is/are.

http://www.nola.com/hornets/t-p/index.s ... xml&coll=1

http://blog.nola.com/hornetsbeat/2009/0 ... hey_a.html

Last season the Hornets were more successful than they've ever been since relocating from Charlotte to New Orleans.

Sales of season tickets strong for 2009-10....

Chris Paul's jersey is the leagues' #3 seller. That also makes the team money.

Despite concern nationally that the flagging U.S. economy is negatively impacting NBA ticket sales for next season, the Hornets are hoping to match or exceed their 2008-09 total of 10,700 season ticket holders.
“Our objective is to have more season ticket holders than last year,” Hornets president Hugh Weber said. “We finished the season at 10,700. We are clearly over 9,000 right now.”
One of the overlooked but critical aspects of NBA ticket sales is the ability of teams to renew their current season ticket holders. With several months remaining in the process, New Orleans is off to an excellent start, ranking in the top five of the league's 30 teams in renewal percentage.

http://neworleanshornetsblog.blogspot.c ... -2009.html

“Sometimes (writers) look at (the Hornets) from the perspective of ‘It’s New Orleans, it’s a small market, so they can’t afford it,’ ” Weber said of one misperception, for example, that the Hornets are desperate to cut salaries from their payroll this summer. “Those are the same people who are saying that people are not coming to games, or that (New Orleans) isn’t supporting (the Hornets). They say that we have to rebuild the whole thing. But that’s just not an accurate view.”

http://www.nba.com/hornets/news/051409_ ... -2057.html

I don't know. Until the team actually comes out says they're 'hemoragghing' then I have to believe they're on solid footing. It cracks me up that people actually think that getting rid of Chris Paul can actually "help" the Hornets. LMAO!

MINNEAPOLIS — With some NBA teams, including his own Timberwolves, losing money, Minnesota coach Kevin McHale said "corrections need to be made" in the league’s collective bargaining agreement.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba ... 3514_x.htm

Orlando Magic losing money...

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports ... llion.html

Pacers losing money...

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/03/12/pace ... index.html

Are there any actual real articles that tell exactly how much the Hornets are 'hemoragghing'?

[shrink]

First, let me say that people from MIN understand how the national media can get it wrong. However, I think the truth lies somewhere in-between the reports from ESPN et al, and the rosy statements your own front office is going to tell the local fans through your local media. Demanding the precise numbers to prove it, is a false argument. You'll never get them because these are private businesses.

So we are left with the tidbits we can glean from other sources, and choosing what you want to believe. The Hornets certainly do not act like a team that is healthy. The Chandler trade and grabbing the loan are marks in the negative column. George Shinn is not the richest, or most reliable owner, as you well know from his history that got you the team in the first place. The team lost $20 mil in 2007-08, and while they did better the next season, the numbers since the financial crisis are not in yet. The recent increased ticket sales have helped the Hornets, particularly since when they returned from OKC they were near the bottom in league attendance, and their building stood half-empty on many nights. However, the problem has been corporate sponsorship sales were in the toilet, including companies like Dr. Pepper, Snapple Group, Capital One, Cox Communications, Ochsner, and Harrah's Entertainment. TV revenues will never be great in New Orleans, with New Orleans being the smallest TV market of any NBA team, sitting between Providence RI, and Fresno. For comparison for MIN readers, NOH, they are actually about a third of Minneapolis (#15) who is itself only 1/4th of NYC.

I know you're a fan, but I think you're being overly optimistic to say:

Until the team actually comes out says they're 'hemoragghing' then I have to believe they're on solid footing."

The team is going to be the last people to tell you that, and this market/owner is never going to be on "solid footing." You should be hoping that they can "stay the course" because the giant economic liabilities are not going to change.

Finally, I'm not sure why you kept mentioning that other teams also worry about the lux. I agree, but that doesn't make it any more or less painful for Shinn. I am a strong believer that the lux has been an effective tool to provide parity among most NBA teams, but its hard to argue that smaller market teams like New Orleans who have less chance to recoup expenses aren't more constrained by it.

[Copperhead]

First, let me say that people from MIN understand how the national media can get it wrong. However, I think the truth lies somewhere in-between the reports from ESPN et al, and the rosy statements your own front office is going to tell the local fans through your local media. Demanding the precise numbers to prove it, is a false argument. You'll never get them because these are private businesses.

So we are left with the tidbits we can glean from other sources, and choosing what you want to believe. The Hornets certainly do not act like a team that is healthy. The Chandler trade and grabbing the loan are marks in the negative column. George Shinn is not the richest, or most reliable owner, as you well know from his history that got you the team in the first place. The team lost $20 mil in 2007-08, and while they did better the next season, the numbers since the financial crisis are not in yet. The recent increased ticket sales have helped the Hornets, particularly since when they returned from OKC they were near the bottom in league attendance, and their building stood half-empty on many nights. However, the problem has been corporate sponsorship sales were in the toilet, including companies like Dr. Pepper, Snapple Group, Capital One, Cox Communications, Ochsner, and Harrah's Entertainment. TV revenues will never be great in New Orleans, with New Orleans being the smallest TV market of any NBA team, sitting between Providence RI, and Fresno. For comparison for MIN readers, NOH, they are actually about a third of Minneapolis (#15) who is itself only 1/4th of NYC.

I know you're a fan, but I think you're being overly optimistic to say:

Until the team actually comes out says they're 'hemoragghing' then I have to believe they're on solid footing."

The team is going to be the last people to tell you that, and this market/owner is never going to be on "solid footing." You should be hoping that they can "stay the course" because the giant economic liabilities are not going to change.

Finally, I'm not sure why you kept mentioning that other teams also worry about the lux. I agree, but that doesn't make it any more or less painful for Shinn. I am a strong believer that the lux has been an effective tool to provide parity among most NBA teams, but its hard to argue that smaller market teams like New Orleans who have less chance to recoup expenses aren't more constrained by it.

Why aren't teams like the Magic, Pacers, Bobcats hiding the fact that they have been losing money? Why would the Hornets not divulge how much they're losing? The teams I just listed say they've lost such and such dollars over the past years or so. It's a private business but yet they're divulging how much they've lost over time. They've haven't given numbers all the way down to the dollars and cents but they've made it known the money they are losing. I'm waiting for the Hornets to say how much they've lost. Or maybe you can tell me. These other teams are telling everyone. Why can't the Hornets? The Hornets did not lose $20 million in 07-08. They just had their best season financially since being in New Orleans so I have no idea where you conjured up a $20 mil dollar loss from. No, George Shinn is not the richest of owners so he has to run a profitable business. Every business has to make sure to keep their finances in order. Matter of factly his minority owner (who people seem to ignore) has more money than Shinn himself. Chouest, the minority owner can pay the lux tax but he's in the business to make money, not to throw money away unless there is a calculated payoff. They have to put a competitive team together while staying within budget. No business will succeed if they're foolishly throwing money away. If I'm not mistaken, I think the amount of the loan they took might be around what Chandler is scheduled to make next season. They may intend to use it if they can't get rid of him. Personally I'm hoping he manages to get and stay healthy because I like him on the team. The Hornets themselves have come out and have basically gave a different account but it seems you and the ESPN talking heads know better. No one knows what will happen down the line economy wise but right now, the Hornets are doing better than people expected. They had a 20% growth in corporate sales last season. Yes, the Hornets are the smallest market but that doesn't mean they can't survive. Someone has to be the smallest market. They received an increase of 163% for their regional sports tv network. Not bad. They are the smallest media market but that still doesn't mean they can't survive. Everyone seems to have their reasons for why the Hornets can't make it in New Orleans. So like I said, the Magic are grabbing the loan and spoke of trading Hedo to stay under cap/tax. Are they not a healthy team? Why is it just N.O. gets thrown under the bus when they attempt a trade or grab a loan? Why do other teams get a pass? Is it because people are expecting, some even hoping the Hornets fail? As for that Tyson trade, Tyson's ankle will never be 100%. If you can get rid of a guy who may never play a full season and whose ankle will just regress as the season goes along and they are able to shed his contract in the process, you gotta try to do it. OKC knew there was nothing really wrong with Tyson's toe. It's most likely they knew the depth of his ankle status.

Both Saints and Hornets ranked in the top 40 of professional sports. Not too bad for a small market.

http://blog.nola.com/jeffduncan/2009/03 ... s_the.html

http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/61335

http://blog.nola.com/hornetsbeat/2008/1 ... s_hor.html

Corporate sponsorship hasn't been all that bad. At least not yet because like I said, no one knows what the economy of the future will look like.

The franchise has called New Orleans home since 2002 but only now are the Hornets gaining traction when it comes to corporate sponsorships.

The team boasts three major corporate partners — Capital One Bank, Cox and 7UP — and more than 60 sponsors. While not revealing dollar amounts, Tom Ward, Hornets vice president of corporate partnerships, said the franchise has seen a double-digit increase in sponsorship revenue.

http://www.neworleanscitybusiness.com/v ... ecID=32288

According to Forbes, the Hornets made about $3mil during 07-08 so I don't know where you get a $20 mil loss from. I guess you can just say anything without having something to back it up and people aren't supposed to know any better. Shinn PROJECTED a loss at the beginning of the season after returning from OKC but instead, he didn't lose anything. $3 mil isn't a huge profit but any profit is better than a loss. I haven't seen numbers from the 08-09 season yet but I would think they were even better than 07-08.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/32/nba ... 28959.html

[shrink]

[ Why aren't teams like the Magic, Pacers, Bobcats hiding the fact that they have been losing money? Why would the Hornets not divulge how much they're losing? The teams I just listed say they've lost such and such dollars over the past years or so. It's a private business but yet they're divulging how much they've lost over time. They've haven't given numbers all the way down to the dollars and cents but they've made it known the money they are losing. I'm waiting for the Hornets to say how much they've lost. Or maybe you can tell me. These other teams are telling everyone. Why can't the Hornets? The Hornets did not lose $20 million in 07-08. They just had their best season financially since being in New Orleans so I have no idea where you conjured up a $20 mil dollar loss from. :lol:

To answer your questions,

1. Different teams/owners have different management styles, about what they will divulge.
2. Maybe the Hornets don't divulge because they are afraid if they look cash-poor, someone will swoop in and buy the team. Who knows? They sure won't tell us either way.
3. Forbes, but you're right -- when I looked back, I misread it. The $20 mil loss was projected at the beginning of the season, but later success and extra play-off games got the mto a slight profit.

No, George Shinn is not the richest of owners so he has to run a profitable business. Every business has to make sure to keep their finances in order. Matter of factly his minority owner (who people seem to ignore) has more money than Shinn himself. The Hornets themselves have come out and have basically gave a different account but it seems you and the ESPN talking heads know better. No one knows what will happen down the line economy wise but right now, the Hornets are doing better than people expected. They had a 20% growth in corporate sales last season. Yes, the Hornets are the smallest market but that doesn't mean they can't survive. Someone has to be the smallest market. They received an increase of 163% for their regional sports tv network. Not bad. Everyone seems to have their reasons for why the Hornets can't make it in New Orleans. So like I said, the Magic are grabbing the loan and spoke of trading Hedo to stay under cap/tax. Are they not a healthy team? Why is it just N.O. gets thrown under the bus when they attempt a trade or grab a loan? Why do other teams get a pass? Is it because people are expecting, some even hoping the Hornets fail? As for that Tyson trade, Tyson's ankle will never be 100%. If you can get rid of a guy who may never play a full season and whose ankle will just regress as the season goes along and they are able to shed his contract in the process, you gotta try to do it. OKC knew there was nothing really wrong with Tyson's toe. It's most likely they knew the depth of his ankle status.

4. I think many teams are probably struggling right now, with the economy perhaps changing consumer spending. Perhaps Orlando should be included as well. But Orlando's financial situation is different, because they are twice your size, and they don't carry as many bad contracts as you do. Still, you see them talking about losing Hedo when they are a national contender. That means things are bad.
5. Even if your projection is true, getting rid of Tyson to save money may be what the Hornets have to do, but that is not what every team has to do. For example, the financially strong Lakers would keep Chandler's veteran play, and get what they could out of him on the floor, because that would mean more wins.

Look, I don't want to argue with you about this. You've made several good points about their finances. We may, or may not, know more when the front offices hear the impact of the recession on their sport. Personally, I think several small-market teams will have to make radical deals like MEM did with Pau Gasol because they'll need financial help more. I could see some cities losing their teams .. the Bobcats may have been put on the market just last week. But we won't know any of this for a while. I maintain though that the market forces will hit a team like New Orleans harder than the big market cities.

[Copperhead]

[ Why aren't teams like the Magic, Pacers, Bobcats hiding the fact that they have been losing money? Why would the Hornets not divulge how much they're losing? The teams I just listed say they've lost such and such dollars over the past years or so. It's a private business but yet they're divulging how much they've lost over time. They've haven't given numbers all the way down to the dollars and cents but they've made it known the money they are losing. I'm waiting for the Hornets to say how much they've lost. Or maybe you can tell me. These other teams are telling everyone. Why can't the Hornets? The Hornets did not lose $20 million in 07-08. They just had their best season financially since being in New Orleans so I have no idea where you conjured up a $20 mil dollar loss from.

To answer your questions,

1. Different teams/owners have different management styles, about what they will divulge.
2. Maybe the Hornets don't divulge because they are afraid if they look cash-poor, someone will swoop in and buy the team. Who knows? They sure won't tell us either way.
3. Forbes, but you're right -- when I looked back, I misread it. The $20 mil loss was projected at the beginning of the season, but later success and extra play-off games got the mto a slight profit.

No, George Shinn is not the richest of owners so he has to run a profitable business. Every business has to make sure to keep their finances in order. Matter of factly his minority owner (who people seem to ignore) has more money than Shinn himself. The Hornets themselves have come out and have basically gave a different account but it seems you and the ESPN talking heads know better. No one knows what will happen down the line economy wise but right now, the Hornets are doing better than people expected. They had a 20% growth in corporate sales last season. Yes, the Hornets are the smallest market but that doesn't mean they can't survive. Someone has to be the smallest market. They received an increase of 163% for their regional sports tv network. Not bad. Everyone seems to have their reasons for why the Hornets can't make it in New Orleans. So like I said, the Magic are grabbing the loan and spoke of trading Hedo to stay under cap/tax. Are they not a healthy team? Why is it just N.O. gets thrown under the bus when they attempt a trade or grab a loan? Why do other teams get a pass? Is it because people are expecting, some even hoping the Hornets fail? As for that Tyson trade, Tyson's ankle will never be 100%. If you can get rid of a guy who may never play a full season and whose ankle will just regress as the season goes along and they are able to shed his contract in the process, you gotta try to do it. OKC knew there was nothing really wrong with Tyson's toe. It's most likely they knew the depth of his ankle status.

4. I think many teams are probably struggling right now, with the economy perhaps changing consumer spending. Perhaps Orlando should be included as well. But Orlando's financial situation is different, because they are twice your size, and they don't carry as many bad contracts as you do. Still, you see them talking about losing Hedo when they are a national contender. That means things are bad.
5. Even if your projection is true, getting rid of Tyson to save money may be what the Hornets have to do, but that is not what every team has to do. For example, the financially strong Lakers would keep Chandler's veteran play, and get what they could out of him on the floor, because that would mean more wins.

Look, I don't want to argue with you about this. You've made several good points about their finances. We may, or may not, know more when the front offices hear the impact of the recession on their sport. Personally, I think several small-market teams will have to make radical deals like MEM did with Pau Gasol because they'll need financial help more. I could see some cities losing their teams .. the Bobcats may have been put on the market just last week. But we won't know any of this for a while. I maintain though that the market forces will hit a team like New Orleans harder than the big market cities.

Maybe, maybe not. The only thing I'm hearing RIGHT NOW is that the Hornets are headed in the direction of working out a longterm deal to remain in the city. Not to leave it. The Saints always work out their deal first (which was done last week, netting them Superbowl in 2013) and then the Hornets are next in line. The Bobcats are trying to sell their team. Selling doesn't necessarily mean they'll leave the city. Hornets minority owner is a local guy that can indeed buy the Hornets. But it's Shinn's baby. He's not selling it. He's been adamant about that. But if he happens to need a buyer, that buyer is sitting across the court from Shinn during every game. Hornets' minority owner Gary Chouest. The 07-08 season wasn't a best case scenerio for the Hornets. If they can do like most businesses and manage their salaries while remaining competitive, the best scenerio lies ahead. Good day.

[Jonathan Watters]

This is awesome.

To the death homer vs to the death homer!

Watch out, folks - the aftershocks could be dangerous.....

[Jonathan Watters]

So we are left with the tidbits we can glean from other sources, and choosing what you want to believe.

And you've chosen to believe the tidbits that make the Hornets giving away Chris Paul for breadcrumbs a feasible outcome...

It must be nice.