The Official Playoffs Thread

Post #2701 » by **paulpressey25** » Wed May 27, 2009 4:50 am

Ayt wrote:people have forgotten that dominant bigs on teams that play great D win championships.

So we are pretty much set then with a healthy Bogut coming back next year? I heard he outplayed Dwight for two quarters in a game this past season...... 8-)

Post #2702 » by **paulpressey25** » Wed May 27, 2009 4:52 am

midranger wrote:The Cavs have played as poorly as possible and have been all of these games. I don't know what to glean from that, but if you're a Cavs fan, it's something to hold on to.

I agree. This series is far, far from over. It took some insane three point shooting tonight for the Magic to squeak out this win. We'll be back in Orlando for game six.

REDDzone · Post #2703 » by **REDDzone** » Wed May 27, 2009 4:53 am

midranger wrote:They are also 2 insane shots from being up 3-1.

The Cavs have played as poorly as possible and have been all of these games. I don't know what to glean from that, but if you're a Cavs fan, it's something to hold on to.

The Cavs have played really poorly, but to be fair, a lot of people say that likes its just the Cavs choking hard or something. That number one defense in the NBA has more than a little to do with it I suspect, as well as the fact that the Magic offense matches up perfectly to give that Cavs D fits.

Wise1 · Post #2704 » by **Wise1** » Wed May 27, 2009 4:53 am

Ayt wrote:
Nebula1 wrote:
Ayt wrote:
I agree. Pretty much everyone has gotten caught up with LeBron and Kobe and people have forgotten that dominant bigs on teams that play great D win championships.

And if Kobe beats Dwight in the finals, what will the excuse be then? Surely you don't think Gasol and Odom pose any type of physical threat defensively underneath do you? Bynum will not be able to stay on the court against Howard. Bynum can't be relied upon at this level of competition at this stage of his career.

Wise1 · Post #2705 » by **Wise1** » Wed May 27, 2009 4:57 am

LukePliska wrote:
Wise1 wrote:[quote="LukePliska
Kids. We're debating Kobe v LePrince. Not Kobe v Shaq and Duncan.

Kobe's winning trumps Lehype's winning.

We are debating what makes one player better than another and thus far you guys have used the ring defense a lot...

Then you turn around and say Kobe is the best player in the league, when he doesn't have the most rings.

So which is it? Are Shaq and Duncan the best players? Or do you think Kobe is better than them, even though that goes against how you try to defend him?

Winning is all that matters, that is what you 'old school' guys say, right?

Kobe is a better player than both Shaq and Duncan right now. I think the door has closed on the legacies of Duncan and Shaq. Kobe can still win several championships before he's done.

Rings are the difference maker when all other things are equal. Lebron wouldn't even be in the conversation if rings were the end all and be all. But yes, rings do carry a lot of weight.

Wise1 · Post #2706 » by **Wise1** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:01 am

midranger wrote:They are also 2 insane shots from being up 3-1.

The Cavs have played as poorly as possible and have been all of these games. I don't know what to glean from that, but if you're a Cavs fan, it's something to hold on to.

Keep holding on then. But remember, the Cavaliers were the favorites while the Magic were the underdogs.

Post #2707 » by **ReasonablySober** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:02 am

Ayt wrote:Pretty much everyone has gotten caught up with LeBron and Kobe and people have forgotten that dominant bigs on teams that play great D win championships.

I was thinking about this earlier. When I think of dominant bigs leading their teams to titles I think of Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq, etc...Howard, not so much. But there aren't many reasons Howard couldn't join that group.

Kobe and LeBron have been anointed while the league's best big man has gone relatively unnoticed. Imagine what Howard could do if he developed some of the dream's moves or Ewings baseline fade-away.

Ayt · Post #2708 » by **Ayt** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:03 am

LukePliska wrote:
Ayt wrote:In case anyone cares, here are Kobe's career numbers in the Finals.

22.1 PTS
41.0% FG
29.6% 3PT
5.1 AST
4.9 REB
1.7 STL
3.1 TO

Clutch.

What are Shaqs? (Even though I know that doesn't matter, at least to some people around here.)

28.8 PTS
60.2% FG
48% FT
12.7 FTA
13.1 REB (4.0 ORB)
3.4 AST
2.1 BLK
3.4 TO

Post #2709 » by **ReasonablySober** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:04 am

BTW, in the Cavs vs Magic debate and to who has played better and who has needed the luck, to me it's not even close. The Cavs should be home in Cleveland right now talking about their offseason.

Newz · Post #2710 » by **Newz** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:05 am

Ayt wrote:
LukePliska wrote:
Ayt wrote:In case anyone cares, here are Kobe's career numbers in the Finals.

22.1 PTS
41.0% FG
29.6% 3PT
5.1 AST
4.9 REB
1.7 STL
3.1 TO

Clutch.

What are Shaqs? (Even though I know that doesn't matter, at least to some people around here.)

28.8 PTS
60.2% FG
48% FT
12.7 FTA
13.1 REB (4.0 ORB)
3.4 AST
2.1 BLK
3.4 TO

Well at least he had Kobe there to support him.

I'm pretty sure you need a great player to score 22 points on 41% shooting next to you to win when you put up those numbers.

Wise1 · Post #2711 » by **Wise1** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:06 am

If healthy, I don't think Yao takes a second seat to any big man. His overall skillset makes him a better player than Howard at this point imo. Staying healthy is his problem. If health is a factor, then Howard has the edge.

th87 · Post #2712 » by **th87** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:06 am

Some food for thought:

Kobe's top sidekick was the best player on a 50 win team.

Lebron's top sidekick was the third-best player on a 30 win team.

The playing field is nowhere near even to make a fair assessment as to who's better. I think Kobe's more driven mentally though, for sure.

El Duderino · Post #2713 » by **El Duderino** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:07 am

DrugBust wrote:
Ayt wrote:Pretty much everyone has gotten caught up with LeBron and Kobe and people have forgotten that dominant bigs on teams that play great D win championships.

I was thinking about this earlier. When I think of dominant bigs leading their teams to titles I think of Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq, etc...Howard, not so much. But there aren't many reasons Howard couldn't join that group.

Kobe and LeBron have been anointed while the league's best big man has gone relatively unnoticed. Imagine what Howard could do if he developed some of the dream's moves or Ewings baseline fade-away

Plus, people can't forget that Howard never spent a few years in college to refine his game before entering the NBA.

For me, i just wish i could see Stern's face in private if Orlando and Denver make the finals instead of his wet dream Kobe/LeBron matchup.

Newz · Post #2714 » by **Newz** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:08 am

Wise1 wrote:Kobe is a better player than both Shaq and Duncan right now. I think the door has closed on the legacies of Duncan and Shaq. Kobe can still win several championships before he's done.

Rings are the difference maker when all other things are equal. Lebron wouldn't even be in the conversation if rings were the end all and be all. But yes, rings do carry a lot of weight.

Oh, so when all things are equal, that is the only time you can bring up rings?

Okay, I got it.

Well at least all things aren't equal. Kobe has a better supporting cast, has won his championships as the second best player on his team, has played with one of the greatest players of all time, has as many MVPs as LeBron even though he is six years older... Has Kobe ever finished as high as second in DPOY voting?

The list goes on and on.

http://www.last.fm/user/DPF55 · Post #2715 » by **Buck You** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:09 am

Let's all point and laugh at Mo Williams. What a joke he's been in this series and hell, the whole playoffs. Let's go make guarantees and then play poor basketball!!!! God I feel sorry for LeBron.

Ayt · Post #2716 » by **Ayt** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:10 am

DrugBust wrote:
Ayt wrote:Pretty much everyone has gotten caught up with LeBron and Kobe and people have forgotten that dominant bigs on teams that play great D win championships.

I was thinking about this earlier. When I think of dominant bigs leading their teams to titles I think of Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq, etc...Howard, not so much. But there aren't many reasons Howard couldn't join that group.

Kobe and LeBron have been anointed while the league's best big man has gone relatively unnoticed. Imagine what Howard could do if he developed some of the dream's moves or Ewings baseline fade-away.

I doubt we'll ever see him come close to Hakeem or Ewing in the post, but a better hook shot and better spin moves is really all he needs. He should study tape of prime Shaq's footwork like a madman.

Newz · Post #2717 » by **Newz** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:11 am

Wise1 wrote:If healthy, I don't think Yao takes a second seat to any big man. His overall skillset makes him a better player than Howard at this point imo. Staying healthy is his problem. If health is a factor, then Howard has the edge.

I don't think Yao is even close to be honest. Howard is light years ahead of him defensively and is a ridiculously better rebounder. Yao is more advanced offensively, though Howard adds a lot more on the offensive glass and he is better at finishing in transition and catching on rolls to the basket... Howard is also proving that he can score while posted in the playoffs.

Yao's major advantage is that he can hit FTs and has a jump shot, but Howard has been knocking down FTs when they count.

I guess it's like the Kobe vs. LeBron debate though... You will take the more experienced guy who clearly isn't a better player, just so you can argue.

Wise1 · Post #2718 » by **Wise1** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:12 am

th87 wrote:Some food for thought:

Kobe's top sidekick was the best player on a 50 win team.

Lebron's top sidekick was the third-best player on a 30 win team.

The playing field is nowhere near even to make a fair assessment as to who's better. I think Kobe's more driven mentally though, for sure.

It's a "team" game. You have to consider the effectiveness of the entire rotation. The bottom line is that Lebron's "team" won 66 games while Kobe's "team" won 65 games. The previous year, without Mo Williams, the Great Lebron won 45 games. So to claim that Lebron's cast pales to Kobe's is disinginuous. We've seen how poor Bynum, Odom, Fisher, Vuya-Chick, and Walton have been. Trevor Ariza has stepped up though, much like Pietrus. Both guys playing off of great players in Bryant and Howard.

Sigra · Post #2719 » by **Sigra** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:12 am

paulpressey25 wrote:Isn't this what we saw in Milwaukee with both Mo and Redd? You crank up the defense on those guys and they tend to wilt away. They are awesome stat getters against crappy teams in February.

Exactly PP. You are one Hammond hater that has most chances to get it at the end. I would say that "you have talent" to realize how great Hammond is but you have to use that talent. I am optimistic about you 8-)

Ayt · Post #2720 » by **Ayt** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:13 am

Wise1 wrote:And if Kobe beats Dwight in the finals, what will the excuse be then? Surely you don't think Gasol and Odom pose any type of physical threat defensively underneath do you? Bynum will not be able to stay on the court against Howard. Bynum can't be relied upon at this level of competition at this stage of his career.

Why are you talking about excuses? I'll be very impressed if Kobe wins a championship this year.