The Official Playoffs Thread

[Newz]

Some food for thought:

Kobe's top sidekick was the best player on a 50 win team.

Lebron's top sidekick was the third-best player on a 30 win team.

The playing field is nowhere near even to make a fair assessment as to who's better. I think Kobe's more driven mentally though, for sure.

It's a "team" game. You have to consider the effectiveness of the entire rotation. The bottom line is that Lebron's "team" won 66 games while Kobe's "team" won 65 games. The previous year, without Mo Williams, the Great Lebron won 45 games. So to claim that Lebron's cast pales to Kobe's is disinginuous. We've seen how poor Bynum, Odom, Fisher, Vuya-Chick, and Walton have been. Trevor Ariza has stepped up though, much like Pietrus. Both guys playing off of great players in Bryant and Howard.

Ariza and Gasol have stepped up, along with other players on the Lakers.

Who has stepped up on LeBron's team? No one. You are right, it is a team game and LeBron's team is much worse than Kobes.

[Wise1]

Kobe is a better player than both Shaq and Duncan right now. I think the door has closed on the legacies of Duncan and Shaq. Kobe can still win several championships before he's done.

Rings are the difference maker when all other things are equal. Lebron wouldn't even be in the conversation if rings were the end all and be all. But yes, rings do carry a lot of weight.

Oh, so when all things are equal, that is the only time you can bring up rings?

Okay, I got it.

Well at least all things aren't equal. Kobe has a better supporting cast, has won his championships as the second best player on his team, has played with one of the greatest players of all time, has as many MVPs as LeBron even though he is six years older... Has Kobe ever finished as high as second in DPOY voting?

The list goes on and on.

Even without the three rings, Kobe's accomplishments still overshadow Lebron's. Scoring titles, Finals appearances, 81 point game, outscoring a team by himself through 3 quarters 62-61, cluth play against the league's best defensvie teams, guarding the toughest opponent in big games as opposed to hiding on guys like Rafer Alston....on and on and on.

[Ayt]

How can someone talk about the Lakers supporting cast and not bring up Pau?

[Wise1]

If healthy, I don't think Yao takes a second seat to any big man. His overall skillset makes him a better player than Howard at this point imo. Staying healthy is his problem. If health is a factor, then Howard has the edge.

I don't think Yao is even close to be honest. Howard is light years ahead of him defensively and is a ridiculously better rebounder. Yao is more advanced offensively, though Howard adds a lot more on the offensive glass and he is better at finishing in transition and catching on rolls to the basket... Howard is also proving that he can score while posted in the playoffs.

Yao's major advantage is that he can hit FTs and has a jump shot, but Howard has been knocking down FTs when they count.

I guess it's like the Kobe vs. LeBron debate though... You will take the more experienced guy who clearly isn't a better player, just so you can argue.

Niether Howard nor Yao have won yet but I'd say I'd trust Yao more in the clutch than Howard. Yao's defense isn't Howard-esque, but his size does deter a LOT of penetration. He's no slouch defensively. I want a player that can win games in the 4th quarter. In that regard, I'd trust Yao's combination of offense and defense over Howard's at this point.

Beating Lebron James isn't going to put Howard over for me though I acknowledge that he's coming on strong. Beating Kobe Bryant, the game's greatest closer, in the Finals would be very impressive. Kobe's not a perfect player, no one is, but he's the closest thing to Jordan that this league has seen. I think Spike Lee would agree with that.

[Newz]

Kobe is a better player than both Shaq and Duncan right now. I think the door has closed on the legacies of Duncan and Shaq. Kobe can still win several championships before he's done.

Rings are the difference maker when all other things are equal. Lebron wouldn't even be in the conversation if rings were the end all and be all. But yes, rings do carry a lot of weight.

Oh, so when all things are equal, that is the only time you can bring up rings?

Okay, I got it.

Well at least all things aren't equal. Kobe has a better supporting cast, has won his championships as the second best player on his team, has played with one of the greatest players of all time, has as many MVPs as LeBron even though he is six years older... Has Kobe ever finished as high as second in DPOY voting?

The list goes on and on.

Even without the three rings, Kobe's accomplishments still overshadow Lebron's. Scoring titles, Finals appearances, 81 point game, outscoring a team by himself through 3 quarters 62-61, cluth play against the league's best defensvie teams, guarding the toughest opponent in big games as opposed to hiding on guys like Rafer Alston....on and on and on.

Big games against the league's best defensive teams? Like when he played the Pistons in the finals and single handedly lost because they locked him down and he wouldn't pass the ball to O'Neal when they weren't double teaming him? Yeah, I agree. That was impressive.

The 81 point game and the game against the Mavericks was impressive, but two big scoring outbursts doesn't make a player better than someone. For instance, if you want to look at statistics and challenge someone that way, who had more triple doubles? Wouldn't that define who is a better all around player?

LeBron is guarding Alston because they believe that is the most effect way to use him, so he can help on Howard and tonight they have got burned for it. I agree that they should put him on a different player... And maybe LeBron should step up and ask for more defensive responsibility. But as far as 'who is a better defender'... How many DPOY votes did Kobe get as opposed to Lebron?

And you know that all things aren't equal, that's why you cannot argue it. Like Gasol is averaging 17/13/3 with 2 blocks on 60% shooting and 70% from the line... Because besides LeBron, I literally don't think you can put two players numbers from the Cavs together and make them look just as impressive as Gasol's line... Yet you will still argue that their support casts are equal.

[Newz]

How can someone talk about the Lakers supporting cast and not bring up Pau?

Someone who is trying to make a ridiculous argument would do something like that.

[Wise1]

How can someone talk about the Lakers supporting cast and not bring up Pau?

Pau is a part of the team no doubt. 20 points and 10 rebounds look sexy in the boxscore, but being manhandled underneath defensively doesn't show up in that stat. I'd say VeryJoe's winning plays tonight were the equivalent of a 20 and 10 performance. A LOT of what VeryJoe does doesn't show up in the boxscore...and that's far from a cliche.

[Newz]

How can someone talk about the Lakers supporting cast and not bring up Pau?

Pau is a part of the team no doubt. 20 points and 10 rebounds look sexy in the boxscore, but being manhandled underneath defensively doesn't show up in that stat. I'd say VeryJoe's winning plays tonight were the equivalent of a 20 and 10 performance. A LOT of what VeryJoe does doesn't show up in the boxscore...and that's far from a cliche.

Kobe > LeBron
Varaejo >= Pau Gasol

What will you come up with next?

[El Duderino]

If healthy, I don't think Yao takes a second seat to any big man. His overall skillset makes him a better player than Howard at this point imo. Staying healthy is his problem. If health is a factor, then Howard has the edge.

I don't think Yao is even close to be honest. Howard is light years ahead of him defensively and is a ridiculously better rebounder. Yao is more advanced offensively, though Howard adds a lot more on the offensive glass and he is better at finishing in transition and catching on rolls to the basket... Howard is also proving that he can score while posted in the playoffs.

Yao's major advantage is that he can hit FTs and has a jump shot, but Howard has been knocking down FTs when they count.

I guess it's like the Kobe vs. LeBron debate though... You will take the more experienced guy who clearly isn't a better player, just so you can argue.

I agree, i'll take Howard over Yao without anything close to a second thought. Howard is so much of a better rebounder/defender along with running the floor in transition that it easily trumps the better offensive skills that Yao has. The way Howard dominated overtime tonight on both ends of the court, it was something Yao just could do the same because Howard is so much better defensively.

[Buck You]

Wise, do you think Kobe could have led the 2007 Cavs to the finals?

[th87]

Some food for thought:

Kobe's top sidekick was the best player on a 50 win team.

Lebron's top sidekick was the third-best player on a 30 win team.

The playing field is nowhere near even to make a fair assessment as to who's better. I think Kobe's more driven mentally though, for sure.

It's a "team" game. You have to consider the effectiveness of the entire rotation. The bottom line is that Lebron's "team" won 66 games while Kobe's "team" won 65 games. The previous year, without Mo Williams, the Great Lebron won 45 games. So to claim that Lebron's cast pales to Kobe's is disinginuous. We've seen how poor Bynum, Odom, Fisher, Vuya-Chick, and Walton have been. Trevor Ariza has stepped up though, much like Pietrus. Both guys playing off of great players in Bryant and Howard.

PP showed us a study in which championship caliber teams generally have two blue-chippers, or at worst, one blue-chipper and a red-chipper (do you remember it?). The rest of the filler doesn't really matter as much.

Gasol led his Grizzlies to around 50 wins, as their best player by far. He was the main reason that the Grizz made the playoffs. And now he's paired with Kobe. One can argue he's the red-chipper from PP's analysis.

Who is the best player Lebron has played with? Mo Williams? Hughes? Varejao? Ilgauskas? NOT ONE of these guys would be the best player on a 50 win team. It's not even close - Gasol is the best player by far.

The 2006 Lakers and the 2007 Cavs had comparable talent levels. In 2006, the Lakers were bounced in the first round by the Suns.

I can't believe the Lakers far superior supporting cast isn't taken into consideration in your analysis.

[AussieBuck]

In case anyone cares, here are Kobe's career numbers in the Finals.

22.1 PTS
41.0% FG
29.6% 3PT
5.1 AST
4.9 REB
1.7 STL
3.1 TO

Just as I said he's Jamal Crawford in the finals. Moderate scoring at horrible %'s and his counterpart beats him every time.

[AussieBuck]

Kobe Bryant in the NBA finals as compared to his direct opponent at SG. I guess you could argue that he didn't always guard the opposing SG but then it's worth remembering that the 2 times he lost a guy that he could've or should've guarded was MVP.

2000 finals:
Kobe 16 points @ 37%, Reggie Miller 24 @ 41%.

2001 finals:
Kobe 25 points @ 42%, Iverson 36 @ 41%

2002 finals:
Kobe 27 points @ 51%, Kittles 13 @ 45%

2004 finals:
Kobe 23 points @ 38%, Hamilton 21 @ 40%

2008 finals:
Kobe 26 points @ 41%, Ray Allen 20 @ 51%

In conclusion we can see that Mr Bryant is capable of blowing Kerry Kittles out of the water but other than that he's struggled.
For the record as stated by Ayt, Bryant averages 22 points @ 41% while his opponent has averaged 23 points @ 43%.

[Rockmaninoff]

Blah, blah, blah...ideas...blah, blah, blah.

I don't think they need to do all that. All they really need is some of the role players to actually start making wide open jumpers. They definitely played well enough to win game 3 if someone besides James had actually showed up offensively. At least one of Mo and Z needs to start actually helping out offensively. Mo especially needs to shut up and man up.

No, I think defense is their issue.

[paulpressey25]

PP showed us a study in which championship caliber teams generally have two blue-chippers, or at worst, one blue-chipper and a red-chipper (do you remember it?). The rest of the filler doesn't really matter as much..

Here is a link to part one of that nbadraft.net article (two parter). Great piece.

http://www.nbadraft.net/mcchesney005.html

It essentially breaks the stars down as gold, silver or bronze guys. The interesting thing is that Sidney Moncrief was a silver and Marques a Bronze, which correlates with why the 1978-1986 Bucks were so good. We've had no "medalist" level players on our team since then.

[Rockmaninoff]

It takes defense to win in the playoffs, and a Top 5 player in order to contend. Same as it's ever been.

[Neapolitan Buck]

The fact all of you like so much to talk about >Kobe vs. LeBron and who is the best is what pushes the NBA to hope for a Cavs-Lakers finals and screw small market teams like the Magic, and our Bucks. Stop saying "Kobe is the best" or "LeBron is the best", because there is not a single no.1 in this league, to me...They're the 2 best players in the NBA. Full stop. What matters who is the best, if anybody can really say who is? It only matters which teams win and which lose.Moreover, it is and it will always be a subjective thing...

[Wise1]

Wise, do you think Kobe could have led the 2007 Cavs to the finals?

A better question is can Lebron take the league's best team to the Finals in 2009.

[Wise1]

The fact all of you like so much to talk about >Kobe vs. LeBron and who is the best is what pushes the NBA to hope for a Cavs-Lakers finals and screw small market teams like the Magic, and our Bucks. Stop saying "Kobe is the best" or "LeBron is the best", because there is not a single no.1 in this league, to me...They're the 2 best players in the NBA. Full stop. What matters who is the best, if anybody can really say who is? It only matters which teams win and which lose.Moreover, it is and it will always be a subjective thing...

I agree with this, but the Lehype machine will have no part in settling the debate on the court. Excuses, excuses and meaningless stats.

[europa]

I like Mo Williams...

But he really, really has to step up his game. He is the primary reason that the Cavs are down 3-1 right now, they really miss the offense that he brought them during the regular season.

Isn't this what we saw in Milwaukee with both Mo and Redd? You crank up the defense on those guys and they tend to wilt away. They are awesome stat getters against crappy teams in February.

Actually, the last time we saw Redd in the playoffs he was damn good against a very good team.

Mo and Z have both been awful in this series and that's been a big reason in my opinion why the Cavs are on the brink of elimination. At least Ilgauskas has had the smarts to keep his mouth shut and not talk a bigger game than he's shown the ability to deliver.

Oh, go Magic.