Layden was a better coach than Sloan

dalekjazz · Post #1 » by **dalekjazz** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:04 pm

I think Frank Layden was a better coach than Sloan. Layden turned the Jazz into a playoff team, won COY in 1984, something Sloan has never won. Layden also took an inexperienced Jazz team to the second round the first two years they went to the playoffs and was head coach when the Jazz took the Lakers of Magic, Kareem, etc, to 7 games in the second round when the Jazz were expected to be swept. During his tenure Mark Eaton, an unheralded fourth round pick, was developed into a defensive beast.

I believe Jerry Sloan is somewhat overrated. He has never won COY, never won a championship, never been head coach of an Olympic team, and never coached an all-star game. He is considered great because of his longevity as head coach of the Utah Jazz. However, Utah is a conservative state resistant to change, so I don't consider it a great achievement. Sloan is considered a great defensive coach. He was a great defensive coach in the 1980's and early 1990's when physical play was allowed. But he has failed to adjust to the rule changes. The Jazz are usually among the leaders in fouls committed and are poor in defensive rotations and defending the pick and roll. In a big market Sloan probably would have been fired after his first season as head coach when the second seeded Jazz were swept by the seventh seeded Warriors. He definitely would have been fired after his second season after the fourth seeded Jazz blew a big fourth quarter lead at home in the deciding game against the fifth seeded Suns in the first round. Under Sloan the Jazz have failed multiple times in the playoffs when they were the higher seed. In 1990, 1995, and 2001, the Jazz lost the deciding game on their homecourt, blowing big leads in the fourth quarter, all three times, and in 2001 the Jazz actually had a 2-0 lead in a best of five series and blew it. Against Chicago the Jazz had the homecourt advantage the second year of the Finals but could not win the championship. Also the Jazz put on one of the most embarrassing performances in NBA playoff history during that series, losing a game by 42 points. Sloan has been outcoached by mediocre coaches like Don Nelson during the playoffs, when the seventh seeded Warriiors swept the Jazz, his first year as head coach and in 2001, when the Mavericks overcame a 2-0 deficit and a big fourth quarter deficit in the deciding game to beat Utah.

carrottop12 · Post #2 » by **carrottop12** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:59 pm

/end rant

But you might be right.

kebutah · Post #3 » by **kebutah** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:53 pm

Layden was a coach who taught players and actually exceeded expectations. Layden had a way ofgetting the best fromhis players and relieving the pressure from them with his humor.

More times than not Sloan's teams have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs by superior coaching in the series. Sloan does an excellant job when he gets to change opponents regularly like the regular season. In the series environment he is slow to make adjustments and only has won when he has had the superior talent.

CAE15 · Post #4 » by **CAE15** » Sun May 24, 2009 12:05 am

yeah mike brown is a way better coach, he has an all star game coaching appearance. oh and a COY, that makes him worlds above sloan.

dalekjazz · Post #5 » by **dalekjazz** » Sun May 24, 2009 12:34 am

New Jazzy Nets wrote:yeah mike brown is a way better coach, he has an all star game coaching appearance. oh and a COY, that makes him worlds above sloan.

He also knows how to develop defensive schemes designed to be successful in today's NBA game instead of sticking to a defensive philosophy which is outdated, leading to the Jazz consistently being among the leaders in fouls committed and having poor defensive rotations.

UTJazzFan_Echo1 · Post #6 » by **UTJazzFan_Echo1** » Sun May 24, 2009 1:59 am

Are you out of your mind? Layden was a good coach but he has nothing on Sloan.

dalekjazz · Post #7 » by **dalekjazz** » Sun May 24, 2009 2:19 am

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:Are you out of your mind? Layden was a good coach but he has nothing on Sloan.

Layden took a team that was in financial crisis and in danger of moving out of Utah and built that team into a playoff team. Under his leadership unheralded players like Eaton and Ricky Green developed into all-star players. Sloan never achieved the next step, which is to take a playoff team and win the championship. In fact after Layden resigned following Utah's epic seven game battle against the Lakers, the Jazz regressed the first two seasons under Sloan's leadership, as the Jazz were eliminated in the first round each of Sloan's first two seasons as head coach, despite the Jazz having the higher seed.

Lava Rock Kid · Post #8 » by **Lava Rock Kid** » Sun May 24, 2009 2:32 am

Sloan improved in one area this year on defense. Last year the team fouled the lakers into wins. At least this year we didnt see the hack defense.

carrottop12 · Post #9 » by **carrottop12** » Sun May 24, 2009 3:39 am

Do you guys think that if the Jazz had an on the floor leader like Kobe, Jerry Sloan would be a better coach.

kebutah · Post #10 » by **kebutah** » Sun May 24, 2009 4:10 am

Lava Rock Kid wrote:Sloan improved in one area this year on defense. Last year the team fouled the lakers into wins. At least this year we didnt see the hack defense.

In most of the Laker series we were behind early and by quite afew points. Therefore, the fouling would have been a waste. We only got into the games when the Laker's became complacent.

HammerDunk · Post #11 » by **HammerDunk** » Sun May 24, 2009 5:39 am

Batronuj wrote:Do you guys think that if the Jazz had an on the floor leader like Kobe, Jerry Sloan would be a better coach.

Yup. This is the main thing I want to see Deron work on this season. He is way below where he should be in this regard, perhaps his biggest weakness. We may have to see Sloan leave before this will happen like it should. It really won't be long I hope, either way...

David Ginola 14 · Post #12 » by **David Ginola 14** » Sun May 24, 2009 10:34 am

I don't know if you might be right...
But now this situation is important...?
We have Sloan...and in the NBA there aren't many coaches better than Sloan..
Sloan is good...I want a good palyers...

idajazz · Post #13 » by **idajazz** » Sun May 24, 2009 5:02 pm

Batronuj wrote:Do you guys think that if the Jazz had an on the floor leader like Kobe, Jerry Sloan would be a better coach.

He had that for Many Many years and still didn't get it done.

Ming Kong! · Post #14 » by **Ming Kong!** » Wed May 27, 2009 2:51 pm

1988-89 season: Layden (11-6, .647) Sloan (40-25, .615)

Not a real major difference, and I really don't wish to check for injuries and what not. Sloan was in his first year as a Jazz coach and did about as good, and the following year the Jazz went 55-27, .671. Layden got coach of the year with a 41-41 team composed of:

Starting Lineup:

Eaton - 9.7ppg 11.3rpg 1.5apg 5.6bpg .449 FG
Bailey - 15.2ppg 6.6rpg 1.7apg 1.3bpg .490
Dantley - 26.6ppg 5.9rpg 3.4apg 1.0spg .531 FG.... that's arguably better than Deron Williams
Griffith - 22.6ppg 4.4rpg 3.1apg 1.7spg .457 FG
Green - 13.0ppg 2.5rpg 7.8apg 1.7spg .477 FG

Drew - 24.4mpg 16.2ppg 4.3rpg 1.8apg 1.2spg .412 FG... played only 19 games; violated NBA's drug policy

That team would be a solid team now a days. They were the #1 rated defensive team in the league then, so could you imagine how good they would of been today?

Ming Kong! · Post #15 » by **Ming Kong!** » Wed May 27, 2009 3:00 pm

idajazz wrote:
Batronuj wrote:Do you guys think that if the Jazz had an on the floor leader like Kobe, Jerry Sloan would be a better coach.

He had that for Many Many years and still didn't get it done.

I really think people overrate the Jazz teams of Karl Malone and John Stockton. In the 90's they were Malone then a big drop off to Hornacek then Stockton, scoring wise. They had so-so teams often which were just carried by Malone and Stockton, and while that was a great combo, Stockton wasn't doing a lot of the scoring, it depended a lot on Malone. Don't get me wrong, he delivered, but he really needed more help throughout the years, and he really never got it. The best 2nd option Malone ever had in his later days was Hornacek, 14.4ppg average with the Jazz. That makes Mo Williams look formidable.

Fido · Post #16 » by **Fido** » Wed May 27, 2009 6:21 pm

...During his tenure Mark Eaton, an unheralded fourth round pick, was developed into a defensive beast...

For the record, Sloan was head coach for 5 of Eaton's 11 years and was an assistant coach for 4 more of them. It was only Eaton's first 2 years that Sloan was not on the coaching staff in one capacity or another. :wink:

dr0welf · Post #17 » by **dr0welf** » Thu May 28, 2009 3:47 am

Ming Kong! wrote:Layden got coach of the year with a 41-41 team composed of:

Didn't sloan do about the same record with a team comprised of AK and a bunch of street pick up guys just a few years ago. And I believe the Jazz were only picked to win an NBA low amount of games that year. Hmmm... makes you wonder who is the better coach. Thanks for the first stat Ming to help point out the obvious.

Sloan doesn't get coach of the year because of his personality. He's not a likable personality. He is straight to the point and often points out the obvious.

You might not like Sloan, but give him credit he is a great coach. He is definately stuck in his ways and that clouds his vision sometimes. (*case in point, playing Knight over Price this year). But I think that's where your Assistant Coaches have to be able to step up and point that out.

dalekjazz · Post #18 » by **dalekjazz** » Thu May 28, 2009 4:15 pm

Ming Kong! wrote:1988-89 season: Layden (11-6, .647) Sloan (40-25, .615)

Not a real major difference, and I really don't wish to check for injuries and what not. Sloan was in his first year as a Jazz coach and did about as good, and the following year the Jazz went 55-27, .671. Layden got coach of the year with a 41-41 team composed of:

Starting Lineup:

Eaton - 9.7ppg 11.3rpg 1.5apg 5.6bpg .449 FG
Bailey - 15.2ppg 6.6rpg 1.7apg 1.3bpg .490
Dantley - 26.6ppg 5.9rpg 3.4apg 1.0spg .531 FG.... that's arguably better than Deron Williams
Griffith - 22.6ppg 4.4rpg 3.1apg 1.7spg .457 FG
Green - 13.0ppg 2.5rpg 7.8apg 1.7spg .477 FG

Drew - 24.4mpg 16.2ppg 4.3rpg 1.8apg 1.2spg .412 FG... played only 19 games; violated NBA's drug policy

That team would be a solid team now a days. They were the #1 rated defensive team in the league then, so could you imagine how good they would of been today?

The year Layden won coach of the year was 1983-1984. The Jazz went 45-37 that year, their first winning season in team history. The Jazz won the Midwest Divison. In the playoffs the Jazz went down 2-1 to the Nuggets in the first round. A journalist in Denver called out the Jazz, saying they lacked heart. The Jazz responded by winning the next two games and the series. Layden has to be given credit. Jerry Sloan had an amazing season in 2003-2004, probably one of the best in NBA history, and should have won COY. However that team consisted of a lot of players Sloan could relate to, undertalented players, playing on one year contracts, willing to work hard and buy into Sloan's system, like Raja Bell, Mikki Moore, etc. Even Giricek and Arroyo were going all out before their big pay day. Sloan has difficulty managing big egoes and adapting his system to the talents of the player.