Brandon Jennings 2008-09 European Season Stats

[Mumbles]

I get it... you can't get a full picture by looking at just the stats. But, as pointed out, Rubio's stats can be 'excused' by injury. Jennings certainly was limited in playing time due to inexperience and, I imagine, adjusting to life abroad. I'm curious - does anyone know if Jennings had any family move out with him to Italy? What kind of support did he have? It seems to me, that from a player development standpoint, he probably wasn't a priority because he was clearly a 1-year signing. Given the leap from high school to professional ball, he wasn't going to be dominant from the get go and would need proper development. I'm just don't think I would put much effort (if I was the team) to give him minutes or a substantial role to develop, knowing he was just there to get to the NBA draft.

Anyway, that doesn't change the fact that he's far and away better this year than Jennings was.

And it seems as if many think euroleauge stats will automatically transfer to the NBA...they wont...in both cases. You ask a rhetorical question of 'why would an NBA team want such an unproductive player'?..it's basically just another rip on Jennings, and we get it. Cocky young american doesn't do that well in your coveted league, yet gms know that what a player does in the EuroLeague has almost absolutley nothing to do with how they will potentially perform in the NBA. Especially a young player coming off his rookie pro season. Jennings could very well adjust faster than Rubio in the NBA, different game, different style, different country. Brandon could have played better in Europe, but he wasn't going to 'star' there, not at 18. That's the type of league that imposes its will on you, no man is bigger than the league, especially not a young american. (in other words cards were already stacked against him, he had to pay his dues in the form of calls and physical play)

Meanwhile many still whole heartedly believe that Rubio will come in and light up the NBA just because he started play pro bal at an early age. Again, just because a few European leagues are tougher than the NCAA does not automatically mean a player will come in and perform better than a young american prospect. Euroleague is tougher than the NCAA, does that mean Rubio is more prepared, physically and mentally to perform at a high rookie level in NBA style of play than Derrick Rose? No it just means he has more pro experience. The next phenom at point guard will be next year's draft, his name is John Wall.

To the american detractors, Jennings plays one year in college and everyone is all over him. Chill, he'll be aight in the grand scheme of things.

[hamncheese]

So what, if anything, translates from Euro stats. I really don't know much. I know minutes played will be fewer, and lower overall stats are expected. Can anything be gleaned by look at rates per minute rather than per game? I see Jennings has a .15 steal per game in 17 minutes avg. Is that good or average for a guard? What's a good A/TO for a guard in Euro ball? I can use a primer to understand draft value from Euro stats. Also, with all these different leagues, how do they rank in competitiveness?

[Toxicity]

Jennings lacks the outside shot to play the Euro game... he's too young and unexperienced but the lack of a good jumpshot hurted him more. That being said, i was expecting much more from him (even if he wasn't much trusted by his coaches)... Rubio seems on another level so far.

[Joana]

For example, let's look at "euro-busts" . A big majority of them were already "projects with potential" in Europe, nothing more. They barely played, they had no achievements, just this great "potential". Of course a majority of them ended underachieving and/or being "busts".
But, if you look at players that already showed, proved and/or achieved something, you'll have a hard time finding these so-called "busts".

This is very true.

--------------------

I don't think this matters a lot though. Jennings will put up better stats in the NBA in his rookie season. He has very good tools to play the NBA game; his game has some very deep flaws but he seems to be a coachable kid.

---------------

On a related note, to compare Rubio's production to Jennings is truly bizarre. Rubio is one of the best PGs in Europe right now; Jennings is a kid who's not ready to produce consistently at the level he's playing.

[KWSN-Men]

And it seems as if many think euroleauge stats will automatically transfer to the NBA...they wont...in both cases. You ask a rhetorical question of 'why would an NBA team want such an unproductive player'?..it's basically just another rip on Jennings, and we get it. Cocky young american doesn't do that well in your coveted league, yet gms know that what a player does in the EuroLeague has almost absolutley nothing to do with how they will potentially perform in the NBA. Especially a young player coming off his rookie pro season. Jennings could very well adjust faster than Rubio in the NBA, different game, different style, different country. Brandon could have played better in Europe, but he wasn't going to 'star' there, not at 18. That's the type of league that imposes its will on you, no man is bigger than the league, especially not a young american. (in other words cards were already stacked against him, he had to pay his dues in the form of calls and physical play)

Meanwhile many still whole heartedly believe that Rubio will come in and light up the NBA just because he started play pro bal at an early age. Again, just because a few European leagues are tougher than the NCAA does not automatically mean a player will come in and perform better than a young american prospect. Euroleague is tougher than the NCAA, does that mean Rubio is more prepared, physically and mentally to perform at a high rookie level in NBA style of play than Derrick Rose? No it just means he has more pro experience. The next phenom at point guard will be next year's draft, his name is John Wall.

To the american detractors, Jennings plays one year in college and everyone is all over him. Chill, he'll be aight in the grand scheme of things.

Italian League, Spanish League, Euroleague. Most NBA fans have a very bad habit of referring to everything European basketball related as the "Euroleague". It's gotten really old. Jennings was 19, not 18.

[KWSN-Men]

So what, if anything, translates from Euro stats. I really don't know much. I know minutes played will be fewer, and lower overall stats are expected. Can anything be gleaned by look at rates per minute rather than per game? I see Jennings has a .15 steal per game in 17 minutes avg. Is that good or average for a guard? What's a good A/TO for a guard in Euro ball? I can use a primer to understand draft value from Euro stats. Also, with all these different leagues, how do they rank in competitiveness?

Shooting percentages are shooting percentages.

[Mumbles]

And it seems as if many think euroleauge stats will automatically transfer to the NBA...they wont...in both cases. You ask a rhetorical question of 'why would an NBA team want such an unproductive player'?..it's basically just another rip on Jennings, and we get it. Cocky young american doesn't do that well in your coveted league, yet gms know that what a player does in the EuroLeague has almost absolutley nothing to do with how they will potentially perform in the NBA. Especially a young player coming off his rookie pro season. Jennings could very well adjust faster than Rubio in the NBA, different game, different style, different country. Brandon could have played better in Europe, but he wasn't going to 'star' there, not at 18. That's the type of league that imposes its will on you, no man is bigger than the league, especially not a young american. (in other words cards were already stacked against him, he had to pay his dues in the form of calls and physical play)

Meanwhile many still whole heartedly believe that Rubio will come in and light up the NBA just because he started play pro bal at an early age. Again, just because a few European leagues are tougher than the NCAA does not automatically mean a player will come in and perform better than a young american prospect. Euroleague is tougher than the NCAA, does that mean Rubio is more prepared, physically and mentally to perform at a high rookie level in NBA style of play than Derrick Rose? No it just means he has more pro experience. The next phenom at point guard will be next year's draft, his name is John Wall.

To the american detractors, Jennings plays one year in college and everyone is all over him. Chill, he'll be aight in the grand scheme of things.

Italian League, Spanish League, Euroleague. Most NBA fans have a very bad habit of referring to everything European basketball related as the "Euroleague". It's gotten really old. Jennings was 19, not 18.

In no where in my post did I imply all things Europe equal EuroLeague. Nice try though.

[SportsGuy8]

Actually, you're wrong, Euroleague stats translate VERY WELL to the NBA. To some extent also ACB and Italian league stats, for example.

They actually translate much much better than NCAA stats. A good player on a good Euroleague team is very close to a lock to having good production in the NBA, and almost NONE of them end up being "busts".
If a player is a very good player in a top European club, he's almost a lock to be at least a rotation player in the NBA (unless he has terrible athleticism, even for European standards).

The problem is, as always, that all those "Euro-busts" either haven't played at all in Europe (were "projects with big potential" in Europe already) and/or played in inferior euro-leagues. And people just don't seem to get that ...

Edit: P.s.: As for Jennings, we just can't judge him based on this season ... Wouldn't be fair. Too many variables ...

P.p.s.: I remember a Hollinger (the ESPN stat geek ) article from some time ago where he was calculating correlation between Euroleague & NBA stats and you could very accurelately estimate players production in the NBA. On average, their PER is only dropping somewhere from 25-35%.

[SportsGuy8]

To Sportsguy8

Yea I know, I was just asking a rhetorical question, but I think you are also failing to look at the big picture. I am under the impression that most GMs and scouts are competent people who know how to evaluate talent. If they had it their way, they could easily put together a team of average players from 1-12, but they won't win you a championship: you need all-star caliber guys for that. Obviously, all-stars aren't easy to come by, and the obvious ones are easily snatched. But from time to time, there are little gems that aren't so recognizable, and these are the talent that teams take a chance on. Whether they pan out and become a Dirk Nowitzki is hard to predict of course.

I'm not so sure that "most GMs and scouts are competent people". Scouts, yes, probably, but most GMs shouldn't have the jobs that they do. The problem is that too many teams settle on having former NBA players (and/or other NBA personell) at GM positions which is just wrong strategy. Sure, some of them are very good at it, majority not, though.

Teams should act like big companies that already found out that the best thing for business is if they put really smart people (geniuses) to be in charge, people that don't necessarily have a lot in common with the business at the beginning.

So, for NBA, a really smart person who's just a regular NBA fan would be a much better GM than a former player that just doesn't have enough brain-power for making complex decisions ... And I'm not saying they're not smart, just saying they're not super-smart.

Teams have scouts and other personell to provide them data, information, opinions, but then you have to have someone to logically connect all the dots, be able to make complex calculations in his head, think on another level and make right decisions based on all the things ... And most current GMs simply don't have the skills/tool-set for that.

It's like on the floor. You could teach Brian Scalabrine to perfection, give him world class coaching, give him all the experiences in the world, but he would still be nowhere near LeBron James. And the same applies for GMs. Someone can have all the basketball experiances in the world, have whole life concentrated around basketball, but he would still not be able to be close as good GM as some wicked genius ...

I do agree with you how and why teams take chances on certain players and that it's a lot more complex than it looks. But, the problem I have with it, is that teams don't seem to see the right % a certain player has, to be a player that they hope him to be. They should look at every player from a math standpoint and estimate what the probabilities are that he'll be a superstar, a star, a role-player, a bust, black-hole, a cancer, etc. and estimate right value (including calculated risks). I just don't think 90% of GMs are capable of that level of complex thinking and decision making ...

[KWSN-Men]

And it seems as if many think euroleauge stats will automatically transfer to the NBA...they wont...in both cases. You ask a rhetorical question of 'why would an NBA team want such an unproductive player'?..it's basically just another rip on Jennings, and we get it. Cocky young american doesn't do that well in your coveted league, yet gms know that what a player does in the EuroLeague has almost absolutley nothing to do with how they will potentially perform in the NBA. Especially a young player coming off his rookie pro season. Jennings could very well adjust faster than Rubio in the NBA, different game, different style, different country. Brandon could have played better in Europe, but he wasn't going to 'star' there, not at 18. That's the type of league that imposes its will on you, no man is bigger than the league, especially not a young american. (in other words cards were already stacked against him, he had to pay his dues in the form of calls and physical play)

Meanwhile many still whole heartedly believe that Rubio will come in and light up the NBA just because he started play pro bal at an early age. Again, just because a few European leagues are tougher than the NCAA does not automatically mean a player will come in and perform better than a young american prospect. Euroleague is tougher than the NCAA, does that mean Rubio is more prepared, physically and mentally to perform at a high rookie level in NBA style of play than Derrick Rose? No it just means he has more pro experience. The next phenom at point guard will be next year's draft, his name is John Wall.

To the american detractors, Jennings plays one year in college and everyone is all over him. Chill, he'll be aight in the grand scheme of things.

Italian League, Spanish League, Euroleague. Most NBA fans have a very bad habit of referring to everything European basketball related as the "Euroleague". It's gotten really old. Jennings was 19, not 18.

In no where in my post did I imply all things Europe equal EuroLeague. Nice try though.

Yes you did. You implied that Rubio was a good Euroleague player. Again he is not. He is a good Spanish League player.

[KWSN-Men]

To Sportsguy8

Yea I know, I was just asking a rhetorical question, but I think you are also failing to look at the big picture. I am under the impression that most GMs and scouts are competent people who know how to evaluate talent. If they had it their way, they could easily put together a team of average players from 1-12, but they won't win you a championship: you need all-star caliber guys for that. Obviously, all-stars aren't easy to come by, and the obvious ones are easily snatched. But from time to time, there are little gems that aren't so recognizable, and these are the talent that teams take a chance on. Whether they pan out and become a Dirk Nowitzki is hard to predict of course.

I'm not so sure that "most GMs and scouts are competent people". Scouts, yes, probably, but most GMs shouldn't have the jobs that they do. The problem is that too many teams settle on having former NBA players (and/or other NBA personell) at GM positions which is just wrong strategy. Sure, some of them are very good at it, majority not, though.

Teams should act like big companies that already found out that the best thing for business is if they put really smart people (geniuses) to be in charge, people that don't necessarily have a lot in common with the business at the beginning.

So, for NBA, a really smart person who's just a regular NBA fan would be a much better GM than a former player that just doesn't have enough brain-power for making complex decisions ... And I'm not saying they're not smart, just saying they're not super-smart.

Teams have scouts and other personell to provide them data, information, opinions, but then you have to have someone to logically connect all the dots, be able to make complex calculations in his head, think on another level and make right decisions based on all the things ... And most current GMs simply don't have the skills/tool-set for that.

It's like on the floor. You could teach Brian Scalabrine to perfection, give him world class coaching, give him all the experiences in the world, but he would still be nowhere near LeBron James. And the same applies for GMs. Someone can have all the basketball experiances in the world, have whole life concentrated around basketball, but he would still not be able to be close as good GM as some wicked genius ...

I do agree with you how and why teams take chances on certain players and that it's a lot more complex than it looks. But, the problem I have with it, is that teams don't seem to see the right % a certain player has, to be a player that they hope him to be. They should look at every player from a math standpoint and estimate what the probabilities are that he'll be a superstar, a star, a role-player, a bust, black-hole, a cancer, etc. and estimate right value (including calculated risks). I just don't think 90% of GMs are capable of that level of complex thinking and decision making ...

This is very true. Reportedly the highest IQ of any NBA GM is the Rockets GM Daryl Morey. His IQ is 160. That's definitely genius level, but it's hardly by any stretch impressive. It's actually quite an indictment that teams that have billions at stake and only a 160 IQ is the highest in the league. And yeah he's not a former basketball player or coach.

There are lots of people with IQs higher than Morey that could be hired and do a much better job than the average NBA GM does.

[KennerLeaguer]

Officially, the 2008-09 European season of Brandon Jennings is over. Here are the results:

Italian League:

27 games

17.0 minutes

35.1% FG
20.7% 3 PT FG
64.5% FT

5.5 points
1.6 rebounds
2.2 assists

1.5 steals
2.1 turnovers

Team Result: Eliminated in first round of the Italian playoffs.

Euroleague:

16 games

19.6 minutes

38.7% FG
26.8% 3 PT FG
77.4% FT

7.6 points
1.6 rebounds
1.6 assists

1.2 steals
1.2 turnovers

Team Result: Failed to make the Euroleague playoffs.

It's quite interesting that the NBA so highly covets such a performance.

Don't ever overestimate the intelligence of NBA scouts.

[SSUBluesman]

It's quite interesting that the NBA so highly covets such a performance.

I know, right? I mean the two leagues are mirror images of one another and NBA teams are certainly going to look to play Jennings as a spot-up shooting 2. And then there is his athleticism that the fanboys keep talking about, like that's ever helped anyone in the NBA. I mean, gimme a break.

[EddieJonesFan]

What the hell does IQ scores have to do with how well you run a basketball team? I mean, I'm sure having a high IQ doesn't hurt, but IQ test scores aren't the end all be all measurements of intelligence.

[vincecarter4pres]

^^^On top of that, a 160 IQ is extremely high, flatout genious level. This tool shed makes it sound like people with 160 IQ's grow on trees.

[KWSN-Men]

^^^On top of that, a 160 IQ is extremely high, flatout genious level. This tool shed makes it sound like people with 160 IQ's grow on trees.

Well it's low compared to my IQ and plenty of other people's as well.

[vincecarter4pres]

^^^On top of that, a 160 IQ is extremely high, flatout genious level. This tool shed makes it sound like people with 160 IQ's grow on trees.

Well it's low compared to my IQ and plenty of other people's as well.

GTFO. An estimated 1% of the world's population has an IQ of 135 or higher.
People like Stephen Hawkins, Bill Gates and Paul Allen are "only" in the 160's.
Bobby Fischer has an extremely high IQ and was I believe in the high 180's.
You're full of $hit.
Maybe you do have an extremely high IQ, if you're not lieing for attention, but truthfully I do not care and it doesn't mean your opinion is any better then mine or someone else with a lower IQ.
On top of that, stop talking out of your ass and making up false facts. Again, it is not normal or common for people to have IQ's that high.

You prove with each post that you are just an arrogant, condenscending, cantankerous prick that lives to hear himself speak.
What happened to your website anyway? Couldn't afford to keep hosting it on godaddy?

So here's to you and your amazing IQ, I wish mine was above 80. Then I wouldn't need this shower helmet and safety scissors when I'm making my European draft prospects collage.


I've got mail! Yay! Yaaaayy!

[Mumbles]

Yes you did. You implied that Rubio was a good Euroleague player. Again he is not. He is a good Spanish League player.

Wow, do I have to actually hold you by the hand/cheir and walk you through my post to illustrate how you failed again.?

All references to Rubio in my post...

Jennings could very well adjust faster than Rubio in the NBA, different game, different style, different country.

Somehow you got Rubio is a good Euroleague player from that?

Meanwhile many still whole heartedly believe that Rubio will come in and light up the NBA just because he started play pro ball at an early age. Again, just because a few European leagues are tougher than the NCAA does not automatically mean a player will come in and perform better than a young american prospect. Euroleague is tougher than the NCAA, does that mean Rubio is more prepared, physically and mentally to perform at a high rookie level in NBA style of play than Derrick Rose?

Again..what is the one the main reasons Rubio has garnered to much hype? His age, he started playing pro basketball at an early age, and he is often the youngest player on the court. I make that point and somehow you construe that as saying Rubio is a good/great Euroleague player...And again, If you would have read the post, you would have saw that I was talking about multiple national or 'European' leagues. Not just the Euroleague, but because so many euroheads like to beat the drum that euroleague is much tougher than NCAA.. you would think almost any average euroleague player would be more prepared to play in the NBA than a kid coming out of the NCAA. But we all know that is not true..I make that point and for some reason you put in your mind that I'm calling Rubio a good Euroleague player...lolz the kid is overhyped enough..i'm certainly not contributing to that.

You would think reading comprehension would come with a 'high' IQ..

[pj_tor]

[

]



Yes you did. You implied that Rubio was a good Euroleague player. Again he is not. He is a good Spanish League player.

Yeah, well, that's like saying Tayshaun Prince is a good NBA player but not a good Olympic Games player.

Give the kid a break. How many Euroleague games has he played? I'm gonna tell you: 21

16 games in 2006-2007: being 16 years old he averaged 3.3 assists and 3.45 steals (stat leader) in 18 mpg. You probably remember that 7 assist 7 steals game against your "beloved" Panathinaikos and a 5 reb 3 ast 7 stl game against Olympiacos. I'm sure you were wondering where on earth had that kid come from. This Euroleague season contributed a lot to his fast increasing hype.

5 games in 2008-2009: played 5 games with just one hand, failing to log more than 10 minutes in 3 of those games. So the stats are irrelevant.

So technically you probably can't say he is a good euroleague player but you certainly can't say the opposite. But you and I don't have the slightest doubt that given consistent playing time on a team that consistently made it to the Euroleague Rubio's stats would be as good as the ones he has on the ACB. Because yes, ACB stats translate pretty well to the Euroleague.

So it's not that he didn't do great in Euroleague (steals leader at 16 is not bad though), it's that playing limited minutes in 21 games he hasn't had the opportunity to show anything. Just to make your point more precise.

And the things people say about Jennings... I truly haven't seen him play, but from what everybody says he didn't perform great on the Italian league, which is not even top 2 in domestic euro leagues. His Euroleague stats are similar I think. But I don't think it's fair to call him a bust or say that the stats are shameful and translate into an NBA bench warmer. Give him a break too, he is a kid playing totally different basketball in a far away country. He will get better, just give him some time before passing judgement on him.

[KWSN-Men]

^^^On top of that, a 160 IQ is extremely high, flatout genious level. This tool shed makes it sound like people with 160 IQ's grow on trees.

Well it's low compared to my IQ and plenty of other people's as well.

GTFO. An estimated 1% of the world's population has an IQ of 135 or higher.
People like Stephen Hawkins, Bill Gates and Paul Allen are "only" in the 160's.
Bobby Fischer has an extremely high IQ and was I believe in the high 180's.
You're full of $hit.
Maybe you do have an extremely high IQ, if you're not lieing for attention, but truthfully I do not care and it doesn't mean your opinion is any better then mine or someone else with a lower IQ.
On top of that, stop talking out of your ass and making up false facts. Again, it is not normal or common for people to have IQ's that high.

You prove with each post that you are just an arrogant, condenscending, cantankerous prick that lives to hear himself speak.
What happened to your website anyway? Couldn't afford to keep hosting it on godaddy?

So here's to you and your amazing IQ, I wish mine was above 80. Then I wouldn't need this shower helmet and safety scissors when I'm making my European draft prospects collage.


I've got mail! Yay! Yaaaayy!

My IQ is 197. My mother's IQ is 197 and her father's IQ was 200. My father's IQ was 160.