The Kobe Step Through

[prophet_of_rage]

I don't care what the rule you posted says, it's wrong. There must be another section that deals with the situation in question. You CANNOT pick your pivot foot up FIRST on a jump, because then the other foot is essentially becoming a new pivot foot until it leaves the ground.

It's messed up but it's true. According to the rule it sounds like you can establish a pivot foot, then lift it up and stand there as long as you want on the other foot. I have no idea why they made this rule, I guess they just didn't think people would use their other foot to step off of and only thought of a jumping situation.

If you couldn't have your pivot foot leave the ground to attempt a pass or shot then you would be unable to attempt the jumpshot which requires your pivot foot to leave the ground.

[DarkAzcura]

I think you guys are not understanding what sixerswillrule is trying to say the last couple pages. As of a couple months ago sixerswillrule has accepted that it is NOT a travel, even though he thought it was.

Now it seems like he is arguing that a majority of people don't actually know this rule, which is true. I can tell you right now that the majority of people who play basketball believe that you must jump off both feet. I've never heard of being able to lift your pivot foot to jump off the other foot (til this thread). No one knows that rule. I've talked to refs before at the high school level and played with some college players because I use the drop step a lot in the post, but I never left the pivot foot to jump off the other. I always jump off both feet. A few times I've lifted my pivot foot, everyone called travel. This is what sixerswillrule is trying to say right now. He's saying that most people believe it is a travel to lift the pivot foot, and the refs will call a travel on it the majority of times because of how awkward and illegal it looks.

The rule may be in the rulebook, but it is not a well established rule. It needs to be clarified and made a common undestanding because I know a ton of people who would be surprised by this rule existing.

Oh and everyone citing the Kobe gif and Kevin McHale videos as examples of this rule, well those videos aren't examples of this rule. In all of the videos and gifs posted every player has been jumping off both feet or very close to it. No one has lifted their pivot foot first obviously in any of the videos posted (not Jefferson, not McHale, and not Kobe). Carmelo's recent move is an example of the rule that has been argued for the last 22 pages, and guess what? Everyone thought it was a travel (cept the refs). People needed a replay and knowledge of this rule to understand that what Carmelo did was legal.

So yeah it seems sixerswillrule knows the rule now, but he is just arguing that most people don't know the rule like everyone's been saying in this thread.

[prophet_of_rage]

Agreed most people don't know the rules of basketball. That's fine, but so what?

A lot of people don't know that it is a technical foul to run at a shooter's legs even if you don't touch them. A lot of people don't know that it is a foul to wiggle your fingers while face guarding, but these are rules.

And the rule is actually a very well-established rule. It is why European footwork is ahead of American foot work because they go by the rules.

And if you haven't looked at the instructional videos it clearly shows the pivot foot being lifted.

[perfectblack999]

I must say, I've played basketball since I was 10 and I've always thought lifting your pivot foot was a travel. I even reffed for 2 years. The rule is kinda counter-intuitive when you think about it. It's a PIVOT foot; if you pick it up it's not a pivot foot anymore, in my opinion

[sixerswillrule]

You have been arguing since this thread commenced that the original video posted of Kobe was a travel.

No, I haven't.

Now you are arguing that Carmelo's move is different than Kobe's and is a travel.

No, I'm not.

[sixerswillrule]

Thank you, DarkAzcura. Everything you said was correct.

I must say, I've played basketball since I was 10 and I've always thought lifting your pivot foot was a travel. I even reffed for 2 years. The rule is kinda counter-intuitive when you think about it. It's a PIVOT foot; if you pick it up it's not a pivot foot anymore, in my opinion

Exactly. I've been playing and watching basketball for 12 years since I was 9 and have always believed it to be a travel. I didn't just imagine this rule up all by myself. People have agreed with me on this. I had never encountered anyone or seen any video to tell me otherwise. That's why I was so persistent throughout this entire thread. I was shocked. And yes, I'm sure that the majority of people who play basketball watch basketball feel the same way. I'm sure that most people thought that Carmelo traveled on his move.

[prophet_of_rage]

This has been a common move in basketball for a long time. Players have stepped around and through players for years.

I admit I meet a lot of American AAU refs who think the move is a travel, but they recognise it's validity when they see the footwork in slow motion.

[sixerswillrule]

This has been a common move in basketball for a long time. Players have stepped around and through players for years.

Any videos? And not those common up and unders, or what Kobe does, because you can't really tell. I'm talking about moves like the one Carmelo did. Because I never see it done...

[R81ST]

LMFAO. Akiho thoroughly explained it already. If you want a blatant travel in that same game by Carmelo look at 5:14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYF40HjybqE

Now there's your travel!

[mtMD]

as long as you jump off of both feet or your pivot foot, youre ok. anything else is a travel. i dont know how this turned into a 24 page ordeal.

[perfectblack999]

as long as you jump off of both feet or your pivot foot, youre ok. anything else is a travel. i dont know how this turned into a 24 page ordeal.

Um, the problem is, everything else isn't a travel

[casey]

It's never used because players believe that it's a travel. That's why you see such a big reaction from someone like Fisher who was right there in front of the play, and everyone else as already mentioned...It has nothing to do with emotions or wanting a call. In their minds, it's wanting the right call...

Most players think it's a travel? The only players you've established that think it is a travel are Lakers players immediately after an opposing player did it. Why don't you understand that what they think at that moment is completely irrelevant? It means absolutely zero. If they watched the replay and after the game said it was a travel, it might mean something. But their immediate reaction during the game is completely meaningless.

As has been mentioned several times throughout this thread already, there's a big difference between what Carmelo did and what Kobe(and many other players) often do.

The only difference is that one looks more "travelish" than the other on first glance. One isn't more of a travel than the other though. Watching it live more people might think the Melo play is a travel. But anybody who watches the replay to get a good look at the footwork and thinks Kobe's play isn't a travel HAS TO think that Melo's play isn't a travel either.

Exactly. It's a stupid rule in the first place. You really can cover a huge amount of ground by using that move. On top of that, it's a useless rule because no one uses it...

You're looking at it completely wrong. It's not even a special rule. The rule that says this play is legal is the exact same rule that says every other non-travel isn't a travel and that every travel is a travel. It's all the same thing. The "rule" is used in every single game. The Kobe example is the same thing as the Melo example. They're the same play. One to a bigger extent, but they're covered by the exact same concept.

[mtMD]

as long as you jump off of both feet or your pivot foot, youre ok. anything else is a travel. i dont know how this turned into a 24 page ordeal.

Um, the problem is, everything else isn't a travel

lol ok.

[tracey_nice]

Thank you, DarkAzcura. Everything you said was correct.

I must say, I've played basketball since I was 10 and I've always thought lifting your pivot foot was a travel. I even reffed for 2 years. The rule is kinda counter-intuitive when you think about it. It's a PIVOT foot; if you pick it up it's not a pivot foot anymore, in my opinion

Exactly. I've been playing and watching basketball for 12 years since I was 9 and have always believed it to be a travel. I didn't just imagine this rule up all by myself. People have agreed with me on this. I had never encountered anyone or seen any video to tell me otherwise. That's why I was so persistent throughout this entire thread. I was shocked. And yes, I'm sure that the majority of people who play basketball watch basketball feel the same way. I'm sure that most people thought that Carmelo traveled on his move.

I've played basketball since I was 12 and, I, for as long as I can remember knew that lifting your pivot foot is not necessarily a travel.

[sixerswillrule]

I've played basketball since I was 12 and, I, for as long as I can remember knew that lifting your pivot foot is not necessarily a travel.

You're weird.

[tracey_nice]

I've played basketball since I was 12 and, I, for as long as I can remember knew that lifting your pivot foot is not necessarily a travel.

You're weird.

How am I weird? Cause I have been aware of the 'step-through' move for sometime now and because I am shocked that this objective thread turned into a argument were there is very little room for interpretation, if so, I guess I am weird.

[sixerswillrule]

Most players think it's a travel?

Yes. That's why blatant uses of the move are never used. That's why you see reactions like the Lakers when it finally is used. And you will see similar reactions if is ever used again...

But anybody who watches the replay to get a good look at the footwork and thinks Kobe's play isn't a travel HAS TO think that Melo's play isn't a travel either.

It's the other way around. If they believe that Melo's play is a travel, they'll change their minds about Kobe's move after watching a replay.

The Kobe example is the same thing as the Melo example. They're the same play. One to a bigger extent, but they're covered by the exact same concept.

Same concept, but still a big difference. Do you ever see reactions like that when the common up and under is done? No, because they appear to be completely different. And with blatant use of the move as done by Melo, you gain more of an advantage as opposed to jumping off what appears to be both feet at the same time. When you step forward with your opposite foot, pick up your pivot, bring your pivot leg forward and into the air and jump off of your other foot you can cover a lot more ground. It's much harder to stop. Yet, still, it is never used...

[sixerswillrule]

I've played basketball since I was 12 and, I, for as long as I can remember knew that lifting your pivot foot is not necessarily a travel.

You're weird.

How am I weird? Cause I have been aware of the 'step-through' move for sometime now and because I am shocked that this objective thread turned into a argument were there is very little room for interpretation, if so, I guess I am weird.

Because aside from reading the rules, I see no way how anyone would know this. This is why, as I've stated many times already, that the majority of the people do not know this. After all, how could they? This move is never used in the NBA. And in the 12 years that I've been playing basketball, I've never seen anyone use this move and not get called out by everyone else for a travel. Read what DarkAzcura wrote. He's absolutely right.

[casey]

That's why you see reactions like the Lakers when it finally is used.

You see the same reaction on any call that looks somewhat questionable and goes against them. That doesn't mean they think it's a travel. They're extremely biased at that moment and only have the one live look from whatever angle they're at.

Same concept, but still a big difference. Do you ever see reactions like that when the common up and under is done? No, because they appear to be completely different. And with blatant use of the move as done by Melo, you gain more of an advantage as opposed to jumping off what appears to be both feet at the same time. When you step forward with your opposite foot, pick up your pivot, bring your pivot leg forward and into the air and jump off of your other foot you can cover a lot more ground. It's much harder to stop. Yet, still, it is never used...

It's an awkward play to do. That's why it is rarely used. The play is not different at all. The footwork is identical.

It's the other way around. If they believe that Melo's play is a travel, they'll change their minds about Kobe's move after watching a replay.

I just showed the replay to my roomate. Right away he thought it was obviously a travel. Then I played it again and told him to watch closer and he realized that it actually wasn't. And this was without me explaining anything about it.

Because aside from reading the rules, I see no way how anyone would know this. This is why, as I've stated many times already, that the majority of the people do not know this. After all, how could they? This move is never used in the NBA. And in the 12 years that I've been playing basketball, I've never seen anyone use this move and not get called out by everyone else for a travel. Read what DarkAzcura wrote. He's absolutely right.

Why would it be a travel? If you actually pay attention to his feet, you'll see that it's not a travel. I understand why on first glance it looks more like a travel to some people. But if you're actually thinking about it you should see that it isn't. Just think about it. If it were a travel then a lot of jump shots would be travels too. A travel is when you put your foot down, not when you pick it up.

[sixerswillrule]

That's why you see reactions like the Lakers when it finally is used.

You see the same reaction on any call that looks somewhat questionable and goes against them. That doesn't mean they think it's a travel. They're extremely biased at that moment and only have the one live look from whatever angle they're at.

This isn't like other questionable calls, such as block/charge or pretty much any foul call, where it could go either way. This is a black and white issue. It's either a travel or it's not. They thought it was a travel. It's as simple as that. As I said earlier, I find it extremely hard to believe that Phil Jackson got up out of his seat to ask for a call that he doesn't truly believe in.

It's an awkward play to do. That's why it is rarely used. The play is not different at all. The footwork is identical.

It's not awkward at all. It's just like taking a layup. I would say that jumping off both feet at almost the same time is more awkward, yet this is the play that you see time and time again. When watching it, they're not identical at all. Otherwise, you would see reactions like that on every up and under.

Why would it be a travel? If you actually pay attention to his feet, you'll see that it's not a travel. I understand why on first glance it looks more like a travel to some people. But if you're actually thinking about it you should see that it isn't. Just think about it. If it were a travel then a lot of jump shots would be travels too. A travel is when you put your foot down, not when you pick it up.

It's nothing like a jumpshot. You never pick up your pivot foot first on a jumpshot. Pay attention to his feet? That's exactly why people would think it's a travel. They look at his feet, and see him pick up his pivot and jump off of his other foot. I can't tell you where this idea came from. That's just the way it is. Many, many, many people somehow, someway, for some reason, believe that picking up your pivot foot with your other foot still on the ground is a travel. I can't explain it.