The Kobe Step Through

[perfectblack999]

It's nothing like a jumpshot. You never pick up your pivot foot first on a jumpshot. Pay attention to his feet? That's exactly why people would think it's a travel. They look at his feet, and see him pick up his pivot and jump off of his other foot. I can't tell you where this idea came from. That's just the way it is. Many, many, many people somehow, someway, for some reason, believe that picking up your pivot foot with your other foot still on the ground is a travel. I can't explain it.

basically just because you'd assume that the other foot being on the ground becomes the new pivot, making it a travel, but apparently the rules say the it doesn't change the pivot foot, thus making it legal...

and that's the confusion

[casey]

This isn't like other questionable calls, such as block/charge or pretty much any foul call, where it could go either way. This is a black and white issue. It's either a travel or it's not. They thought it was a travel. It's as simple as that. As I said earlier, I find it extremely hard to believe that Phil Jackson got up out of his seat to ask for a call that he doesn't truly believe in.

Or he could've saw it live and thought it was a travel. But if he saw it again he would've realized it wasn't. I find it more hard to believe that one of the best coaches ever doesn't know what a travel is. You don't think anybody has ever watched a play and thought it was a travel right away, but then when they saw it again they didn't think it was?

It's not awkward at all. It's just like taking a layup. I would say that jumping off both feet at almost the same time is more awkward, yet this is the play that you see time and time again. When watching it, they're not identical at all. Otherwise, you would see reactions like that on every up and under.

It's extremely awkward. Try it. And they are identical. In the one thing that matters, the footwork. Most people's initial reaction won't be on the footwork, because they're watching the player's body, not his feet. That's why people may look at that play differently. But if they look at it again logically and pay attention to the feet they'll see that the two plays are identical.

It's nothing like a jumpshot. You never pick up your pivot foot first on a jumpshot.

How can you say that? One foot is going to leave before the other the majority of the time. So of course some of the time it would be the pivot foot.

Pay attention to his feet? That's exactly why people would think it's a travel. They look at his feet, and see him pick up his pivot and jump off of his other foot. I can't tell you where this idea came from. That's just the way it is. Many, many, many people somehow, someway, for some reason, believe that picking up your pivot foot with your other foot still on the ground is a travel. I can't explain it.

Again, I showed it to my roommate and just casually watching the play it looked like a travel to him. An obvious one. But then when he payed attention just to the feet he said it wasn't. You can make these assumptions about what you want other people to think, but they mean nothing.


You're having the same problem you had before. Being so confident in what you're saying and so adamant that other people are wrong, yet not really thinking about what you're saying.

[sixerswillrule]

You don't think anybody has ever watched a play and thought it was a travel right away, but then when they saw it again they didn't think it was?

Sure, but what Melo did was pretty clear, especially to someone standing right there. But I certainly don't think that every single person who saw that play and thought travel would change their minds after seeing it again, which is apparently what you're trying to say...

Most people's initial reaction won't be on the footwork, because they're watching the player's body, not his feet. That's why people may look at that play differently. But if they look at it again logically and pay attention to the feet they'll see that the two plays are identical.

They're not identical when in one case the player appears to jump with both feet at the same time, and the other clearly does not. They are watching the player's feet, and that's why they look at that play differently.

Again, I showed it to my roommate and just casually watching the play it looked like a travel to him. An obvious one. But then when he payed attention just to the feet he said it wasn't.

I don't see what could have changed. What did he originally think that Carmelo did?

You can make these assumptions about what you want other people to think, but they mean nothing.

I don't want them to think anything. They just do. 12 years of basketball experience has supported this.

[prophet_of_rage]

Here's the most famous up and under perhaps of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0&feature=related

Hakeem clearly jumps off the non-pivot foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ageDZ0NvnI

Here's Jordan on the step through jumper. The move is common.

[casey]

Sure, but what Melo did was pretty clear, especially to someone standing right there. But I certainly don't think that every single person who saw that play and thought travel would change their minds after seeing it again, which is apparently what you're trying to say...

Every person who knows what a travel is would change their mind. I would imagine Phil Jackson is among those, considering his experience in basketball. When people watch a play live they generally aren't looking at the players feet. And if you're not looking at his feet it looks like a travel because of how far he moves after pivoting.

They're not identical when in one case the player appears to jump with both feet at the same time, and the other clearly does not. They are watching the player's feet, and that's why they look at that play differently.

No. When you look at the feet you see that in both cases the pivot foot leaves the ground first. The footwork is the same, that's how they're identical. If you're not looking at the feet it looks like a travel in Melo's case because he moves a lot more than Kobe did.

I don't see what could have changed. What did he originally think that Carmelo did?

He thought Melo traveled at first look. Again, just like my roommate did when I showed him the play. And he said it was obviously a travel. So he probably would've had the same reaction the Lakers did. Then I told him to watch it again and pay attention to the feet. And after doing that he said it actually wasn't a travel. You want to say that Jackson couldn't change his mind, but I just witnessed somebody do exactly that.

I don't want them to think anything. They just do. 12 years of basketball experience has supported this.

You've never even encountered a situation like this before in your 12 years of basketball experience, so what would you know about people's thoughts on it?

[prophet_of_rage]

Nope. You have to jump off both feet. Or just your pivot foot. Picking up pivot foot = change in pivot foot = travel.

This is what I base your opinion that Kobe travelled upon. Picking up your pivot foot does not equal change of pivot of feet. A pivot doesn't occur until the player steps with one foot in any direction.

[sixerswillrule]

No. When you look at the feet you see that in both cases the pivot foot leaves the ground first. The footwork is the same, that's how they're identical. If you're not looking at the feet it looks like a travel in Melo's case because he moves a lot more than Kobe did.

It's difficult to tell on most of them. That's what separates it from Melo's move.

He thought Melo traveled at first look. Again, just like my roommate did when I showed him the play. And he said it was obviously a travel. So he probably would've had the same reaction the Lakers did. Then I told him to watch it again and pay attention to the feet. And after doing that he said it actually wasn't a travel. You want to say that Jackson couldn't change his mind, but I just witnessed somebody do exactly that.

You didn't answer my question. What did he originally think that Melo did? Why was it a travel?

You've never even encountered a situation like this before in your 12 years of basketball experience, so what would you know about people's thoughts on it?

I know that most people think it's a travel. That's what I've been saying...

[sixerswillrule]

Nope. You have to jump off both feet. Or just your pivot foot. Picking up pivot foot = change in pivot foot = travel.

This is what I base your opinion that Kobe travelled upon. Picking up your pivot foot does not equal change of pivot of feet. A pivot doesn't occur until the player steps with one foot in any direction.

But I've already said countless times throughout this thread that it doesn't really count for Kobe's move, or any similar moves, because both feet appear to be leaving at the same time. Anyway, I've already accepted that those moves, even blatant ones like the one used by Melo, are not travels.

[casey]

It's difficult to tell on most of them. That's what separates it from Melo's move.

Yeah, what separates them is the initial reaction. But the footwork is the same. Kobe's move was just as much of a travel as Melo's (that being not a travel at all). They were identical. People will look at them differently right away. But if they are trying to just analyze whether or not it was a travel they will have to see the plays the same way.

You didn't answer my question. What did he originally think that Melo did? Why was it a travel?

He thought Melo traveled. I said that. He thought he took too many steps. Again, just like my roommate did when he first looked at it. And he was just as adamant as Jackson was. But when he watched it again looking just at the feet to see if it was a travel he came to the conclusion that it wasn't. Immediately it looked like a travel because of how far Melo moved after his pivot, but when he looked at his feet in particular he saw that it actually wasn't a travel, just a nice move. I would imagine that is exactly how Jackson would react too.

I know that most people think it's a travel. That's what I've been saying...

Just like a couple months ago when you knew that it actually was a travel. Right? You have nothing to base that statement on. I would agree that most people on first glance would think it was a travel. But I doubt most people on further examination would still say it is. I know you did, and I'm sure that is a big part of why you think others would too.

[sixerswillrule]

Okay. And I know you didn't, so I'm sure that is a big part of why you think others wouldn't too.

This is all coming down to a matter of opinion, so there's no need to continue...

[casey]

It still boggles my mind how you can't understand that a person can change his mind after seeing a replay, but whatever. It really shouldn't surprise me given your posts in the first 20 pages of this thread.

[sixerswillrule]

And it boggles my mind that you can put words in my mouth, but okay...

[marcroboy]

Lebron just abuse the "rule" today at the start of the second quarter. No one complained.

[casey]

And it boggles my mind that you can put words in my mouth, but okay...

Then explain to my why you're so convinced that Phil Jackson wouldn't change his mind after seeing a replay.

[sixerswillrule]

I'm not ruling out that possibility. It's just that it was a very clear play, especially to those people who were right there watching it. I find it unlikely that he saw something that didn't actually happen. Although he is getting up there in age, so I guess you never know.

[casey]

And what do you have to say to the part about my roommate being in the same exact situation and thinking it was a travel right away but after seeing it again saying it was not a travel?

(and stop acting like being right there watching it helps in determining if it was a travel, because that's dead wrong)

How is it a very clear play? It's not a travel (we've established that as fact) but everybody thinks it's a travel (you've stated that as fact). So it seems like the type of play that needs a second look. It's a play that if you're not going into it focusing on whether or not it's a travel you could very easily mistake it as a travel. And that's obviously the position he was in. He's watching the game, not closely monitoring the footwork. It's not a matter of seeing something that didn't happen. It's a matter of taking a closer look at the footwork.

[dingclancy]

@Sixersrule

Prove your "majority" theory. Make a poll.

[CITYOFANGELSX3]

Poll time?

[casey]

Poll would be fine, if anybody wants to make it. I'm more concerned about his belief that Phil Jackson doesn't know the rule because he complained about the call during the game. It's one of the most illogical arguments I've ever seen on here, and that's saying a lot.

[sixerswillrule]

And what do you have to say to the part about my roommate being in the same exact situation and thinking it was a travel right away but after seeing it again saying it was not a travel?

(and stop acting like being right there watching it helps in determining if it was a travel, because that's dead wrong)

How is it a very clear play? It's not a travel (we've established that as fact) but everybody thinks it's a travel (you've stated that as fact). So it seems like the type of play that needs a second look. It's a play that if you're not going into it focusing on whether or not it's a travel you could very easily mistake it as a travel. And that's obviously the position he was in. He's watching the game, not closely monitoring the footwork. It's not a matter of seeing something that didn't happen. It's a matter of taking a closer look at the footwork.

Being there does help.

What he did was clear. I saw what he did as soon as it happened. He was pivoting, but instead of just jumping forward after putting his other foot down like Kobe and everyone else does, he picked his pivot leg up, brought it all the way forward in front of him, and then jumped off of his other foot.

But two steps after the pivot? Wow. Melo's move is rarely used, but has anyone even attempted to take two steps after pivoting? It's unheard of. But that's how people would view Melo's move? I don't buy it.