My 70 M Jazz roster for 09/10

[dalekjazz]

Picture of Lakers defense on Jazz picknroll:

With the defenders turning their back on them Kirilenko or Brewer should just cut to the basket for an easy layup or dunk and potential 3-point play instead of hanging out on the perimeter which is not the strength of these players.

[dalekjazz]

Picture of Lakers defense on Jazz picknroll:

With the defenders turning their back on them Kirilenko or Brewer should just cut to the basket for an easy layup or dunk and potential 3-point play instead of hanging out on the perimeter which is not the strength of these players.

[hoops4life]

Thanks Dale... haha.

LoserX, I feel for you man. This has been very painful to read.

Jozef, I am sorry man. You need to listen to the voice of reason... LoserX. There is a much easier way to get him and it will not cost you the #10 or Brewer.

[jozef]

We need defender at C position. Any other G/F with an exception of Korver bothered Bryant as much as Ronnie did. There is no reason to prefer Brewer's defense over his non-shooting. Everybody has own opinion on value of Brewer, Budinger and 10th pick.

"Kirilenko or Brewer should just cut to the basket for an easy layup or dunk and potential 3-point play instead of hanging out on the perimeter"
Where do you see a path to the basket? Bryant and Ariza stand in their paths and Millsap with Odom are hanging around the rim. Do you really want 3 Jazz players cutting to the basket? Really, did you ever play bball? Heard about spacing?
Geez, I thought the picture says whole story. It's painful to read your answers.

[Soul Patch]

Brewer cuts baseline and Millsap back-screens Kobe.

[jozef]

How do you go back screen Kobe if he stands with one leg in the paint and what purpose would it have if there is still odom under the basket? What about breaking 3-second rule?
Or simply, where did you see it before?

[Soul Patch]

Well you've got Boozer coming off the pick n roll with Dwill so chances are Odom and Gasol will collapse on him giving Brewer an open dunk or easy layup.

[jozef]

So we would have Boozer, Millsap, Odom, Ariza and Bryant in the paint and you see it as a open layup/dunk opportunity for Brewer and Kirilenko?

[Soul Patch]

**** it.

[loserX]

We need defender at C position.

Agreed, and irrelevant to the Brewer discussion.

Any other G/F with an exception of Korver bothered Bryant as much as Ronnie did.

That may be. However I am pretty certain that the Jazz have to play against other people besides Kobe Bryant, so I'm not going to use that as an excuse to say "we don't need Brewer any more".

There is no reason to prefer Brewer's defense over his non-shooting.

I'm pretty sure there is. Defence is a pretty valuable skill. Like I have said, if you want to add a shooter, I have no problem with that. But giving up a player as good as Brewer in order to get one only as good as Budinger is overpaying, and overpaying is a very bad idea.

Everybody has own opinion on value of Brewer, Budinger and 10th pick.

Agreed again. But your opinion appears to be in a very very very small minority, and you might want to consider why that is.

[jozef]

I'm pretty sure that the main defensive issue is shotblocking at center position. You can see what Nene and Andersen mean for Nuggets defense. It does not matter what Nugget defends Bryant.
So Brewer's defensive impact is overrated.
Now if you look at the offensive end Ronnie is useless without Memo. He miss open jumpers (he spent last summer working on his shot) and his inside % is limited by tall players.
And if I start my team with a change at center position (Kaman for Okur) then Brewer is useless. It's domino effect.
Well, if he could be as good as Trevor Ariza (same age) who shoots 27-56 3P in the playoffs then keep him. But he isn't.
I don't think that I'm in very very very small minority. If you could propose what is Brewer worth then we could go to other team forum to see how realistic your evaluation is.

[loserX]

I'm pretty sure that the main defensive issue is shotblocking at center position. You can see what Nene and Andersen mean for Nuggets defense. It does not matter what Nugget defends Bryant.

Yes, you're right, the main defensive issue is inside. However, if you get Kaman and then trade our best defensive wing for someone who is not as good (and don't even try to suggest that Budinger will be as good defensively as Brewer is), then our main defensive issue is on the perimeter. That is a rather silly argument. It's not our top priority, therefore it's not important at all??

I don't think that I'm in very very very small minority. If you could propose what is Brewer worth then we could go to other team forum to see how realistic your evaluation is.

You go right ahead. You post a poll in other forums asking whether teams would trade Brewer, a starter, for Budinger, a backup with no NBA experience.

[loserX]

Followup to my last post: it's only fair that I too, should back stuff up when I claim it, so here are some threads on RealGM if anyone is interested (and I don't blame you if you're not ). I tried to frame the questions as neutrally as I possibly could.

viewforum.php?f=38 - the mock draft page. I went through the first 30 or so and didn't find anyone who thought Budinger should be in the lottery, let alone #10. There may be dissensions, of course, but I haven't come across them yet.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=909396 - "at what slot should Budinger be drafted?"
Results so far: one person posits a reach by Charlotte at #12 as the highest he could be drafted. Everyone else so far says lower.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=909434 - "what is the highest pick Brewer should return in trade?"
Results so far: the highest offered is Toronto's at #9.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=909400 - straight-up comparison between Brewer and Budinger.
Results so far: 6-1, Brewer.

All these results are of course subject to change as more people post. Just reporting what's happened so far.

[jozef]

Thanks for fair treatment:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=909434 - "what is the highest pick Brewer should return in trade?"
Results so far: the highest offered is Toronto's at #9.

For the Wolves 6 would be too high and 18 would be too low.

I would trade a pick 10-20 in most years for brewer pretty easily.

My team has the #10 pick this year, and I would highly consider trading it straight up for Brewer.
I would do it, mainly because #15 is pretty worthless to us in a point guard heavy draft.

If, hypothetically of course, we had traded Crash for Diaw and Bell rather than JRich and we still had JRich on the roster, I would trade the #12 for Ronnie Brewer.

I'd probably trade the #9 if I'm the Raptors. I don't think he has that high of a ceiling however I see him as a terrific role player.

So we see that generally he is not considered to be worth more than #9 pick. Basically he stays at #13 where he was drafted.
Now look at a SG/SF who can shoot 3's and rebound here is the chart according to nbadraft.net:
#5 James Harden .356 3P%, 5.6 rpg (35.8 mpg)
#6 DeMar DeRozan .167 3P%, 5.7 rpg (33.4 mpg)
#9 Gerald Henderson .336 3P%, 4.9 rpg (29.7 mpg)
#11 James Johnson .319 3P%, 8.5 rpg (30.5 mpg), *6-9/245
#12 Earl Clark .326 3P%, 8.7 rpg (34.3 mpg), *6-10/225
#14 Chase Budinger .399 3P%, 6.2 rpg (37.6 mpg)
#15 Tyreke Evans .274 3P%, 5.4 rpg (29.0 mpg)
#16 Wayne Ellington .417 3P%, 4.9 (30.4 mpg)
#25 Terrence Williams .385 3P%, 8.6 rpg (34.2 mpg)
#27 Derrick Brown .433 3P%, 6.1 rpg (29.5 mpg)
#28 Sam Young .372 3P%, 6.3 rpg (31.8 mpg)
#30 Dajuan Summers .385 3P%, 4.1 rpg (29.4 mpg)

If you see it still as bad move, take it as next compensation for Bucks in that Kirilenko plus NY pick for R.Jefferson deal.

[loserX]

There are none so blind as he who will not see.

Even *IF* we assert that Brewer should be traded for the #10...even *if* we decide that...THAT IS TOO HIGH FOR BUDINGER. You did click all the other links I provided, right?

Nobody in any of those other links believes that Budinger can, or should, go to #10. Only one person believes that Budinger should be picked over Brewer.

[ColdBlue]

There are none so blind as he who will not see.

I think the better suited phrase would be: You can lead a horse to water...

[DelaneyRudd]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the Jazz took Bud-ginger with the 20th pick?

[outerspacefella]

10th pick seems a little high for Budinger... but who knows... this is not that a great wings draft... DeRozan and Harden should (and most certainly will) be taken first, but after them Budinger has the same chances as many others...
As for Brewer for Budinger.... well... I really like Brewer, I think he's the better all around player, and Budinger has yet to prove he can be NBA established player... yet, on the other hand, we certainly and badly need a wing with kind of a killer instinct and a guy who can help Williams handle the ball a little... and Budinger has these too things... I don't know....

[jozef]

The core of my roster change are Kaman and Richard Jefferson. Complete center and complete small forward. I simply cut off any ties with centers who cannot block (Okur) and wings who cannot shoot (Kirilenko, Brewer).

I don't care if we get Budinger at #10 or #20, we just need that type of wing. Boozer, Okur and Korver, they all can opt out and there could be different scenarios with sign-and-trades but the goal stays the same: capable players with position-specific skills.