Gilbert Arenas as a "pure PG"

[TheSecretWeapon]

That first Nets finals team was 17th in ortg, not 5th. They were 1st in drtg. They were 5th in SRS, which stands for Simple Rating System. This stat says they were the 5th best team in the league that season.

The following season (when they went to the Finals a 2nd time), the Nets were still #1 defensively, but slid to 18th on the offensive end.

[Kanyewest]

That first Nets finals team was 17th in ortg, not 5th. They were 1st in drtg. They were 5th in SRS, which stands for Simple Rating System. This stat says they were the 5th best team in the league that season.

The following season (when they went to the Finals a 2nd time), the Nets were still #1 defensively, but slid to 18th on the offensive end.

Makes sense. Their half-court offense was pretty bad; most of their highlights came from the fast break.

[VA_story]

WOW @ this "logic"

Yes Tyson Chandler is a good rebounder BUT CP3 throws countless alleys to him...which makes him respectable on the offensive end. Arenas has never made an offensively inept player play better.

The difference between D.West and Jamison is Jamison was good BEFORE Arenas. As soon as CP3 arrived in NO, David West career took off. See the difference? Plus, and I understand that we are both bias Wiz fans, but D.West is much better than Jamison. Don't kid yourself.

Bottom line is...Kmart was an allstar with J.Kidd, withouth him...he hasn't been back. Which is the point I was making, J.Kidd makes him better. How can you even refute this? lol

I must remind you that Arenas played against the same quality of players in the "weak" east as Richard Jefferson so that makes no sense for you to even bring up.

lol @ Comparing Arenas to Kobe..which happens to be a SG. You are proving my point for me. PGs pass to make their teammates better! Hell even when Kobe passes the ball, the game comes easier to him. You do watch other teams dont you?

If Arenas makes people so much better...what the hell happened last year when we made the playoffs without him? That obviously shows that our team is good without him...not better, but still good. I'm just saying, if he passed the ball more we would be a MUCH better team because we have a lot of other scorers to pick up the slack. Gil jacking up 20 shots a night is unneccessary.

When I say make better, I'm talking about how CP3 makes Tyson Chandler respectable

Offensively? Tyson Chandler's value comes from the fact that he's an elite rebounder, shot blocker and post defender.

how he makes David West an all-star.

David West is no better than Jamison.

How Jason Kidd made Kmart an all-star

K-Mart never once averaged over 16.7 ppg and those Nets teams were never really good offensively.

Their first Finals team was 13th in the NBA offensively, but 5th defensively. (5th in ORTG though, but average eFG%/)

Their second Finals team was 14th in the NBA offensively (while being the second best defensive team in basketball) (granted 8th in ORTG, but their eFG simply dreadful - 22th) For whatever reason they were 6 games worse than they should have been, but meh.

And while we're on the subject, they ran the same offensive system that the Washington Wizards ran for the entirety of Gil's playing days here.

and made Richard Jefferson play on an all-star level.

Jefferson was a quality player in a weak East. Gilbert played against stronger talent imo.

Or how Billups changed the entire mentality of the Nuggets and made players like Melo and Jr Smith play considerably better.

The impact of Billups was on defense, in terms of leadership, and in the locker room. It had nothing to do with him being a facilitator.

Of course GIl makes the game come "easier" to his teammates but he doesn't make people better. To make people better as a PG, you have to PASS the ball. Not jack up 20 plus shots a game.

Your problem is that you're confusing "passing" with leadership. Jason Kidd and Chauncey Billups's impact was not on the offensive end; it was in terms of leadership and defense. We are all for Gilbert Arenas becoming a better leader and more focused defender.

WOW @ looking at other players points to see if hes a ball hog or not. Why not look at his assists? Much as he has the ball in his hands, averaging 5 or 6 assists isn't much.

Assists are sometimes a poor way of looking at a player as a playmaker. It depends on the system (unless you want retract your point about Billups not making his team better; seeing he's only broken 7 twice, and the year they won the title he averaged less than 6) - Gilbert Arenas was never the sole playmaker in the offense, and you generally had a balanced team assist ratio. His AST% compares favorably with Billups (about the same) despite shooting a lot more.

A better comparison would be with Kobe, who has way higher usage rates (fun fact; Kobe's highest AST% came in a year the team was 41-41; his last two seasons have been some of his lowest years for that stat; does this mean Kobe being a ball hog HELPS the team?)

Wade has higher AST% but also higher usage rates.

Not even bothering with the Queen.

My point is that Gilbert as a facilitator is nowhere near as bad as you're making him out to be, in an offense that was not geared towards him being that.

[TheSecretWeapon]

WOW @ this "logic"

Yes Tyson Chandler is a good rebounder BUT CP3 throws countless alleys to him...which makes him respectable on the offensive end. Arenas has never made an offensively inept player play better.

"Inept" is way too strong a word for Chandler. "Limited" is better, and he's still limited. He has gotten more efficient with Paul, and Paul definitely deserves a good chunk of credit.

The difference between D.West and Jamison is Jamison was good BEFORE Arenas. As soon as CP3 arrived in NO, David West career took off. See the difference? Plus, and I understand that we are both bias Wiz fans, but D.West is much better than Jamison. Don't kid yourself.

It's tough to say how much credit Paul deserves with West. West was solid as a rookie (backing up PJ Brown). He was injured his 2nd season, and then made a big leap in his 3rd season. Yes, that's when Paul arrived, but it was also the season when players typically make their big improvement. In my view, West is exactly the kind of pro I envisioned when I voted for him to be the NCAA Player of the Year his senior season (I had a vote that year).

Bottom line is...Kmart was an allstar with J.Kidd, withouth him...he hasn't been back. Which is the point I was making, J.Kidd makes him better. How can you even refute this? lol

After that All-Star season, Martin had persistent knee troubles that eventually led to microfracture surgery.

lol @ Comparing Arenas to Kobe..which happens to be a SG. You are proving my point for me. PGs pass to make their teammates better! Hell even when Kobe passes the ball, the game comes easier to him. You do watch other teams dont you?

This sort of comment suggests the notion that Arenas did whatever he wanted to do on the court. This wasn't the case. The coaches wanted him to score because he did it with extreme efficiency and volume. It was his job to take shots. Pure PG or not, the Arenas-led offense was plenty good enough to win. As has been pointed out dozens of times, the problem with the team was not their offensive style or that Arenas wasn't a "pure PG," it was that they sucked on defense.

Side note: The adjusted +/- folks say that PGs are the least valuable players (at least according to adjusted +/-). Lots of debate is still going on about a) whether it's a valid finding, and b) why this might be the case (if it's a valid finding).

If Arenas makes people so much better...what the hell happened last year when we made the playoffs without him? That obviously shows that our team is good without him...not better, but still good. I'm just saying, if he passed the ball more we would be a MUCH better team because we have a lot of other scorers to pick up the slack. Gil jacking up 20 shots a night is unneccessary.

I addressed that question in this piece for RealGM. To summarize: that playoff season without Arenas, the Wizards got worse on offense and a bit better on defense. In the article, I make the case that the offensive decline was attributable to Arenas being out, the relative defensive improvement was not attributable to Arenas' absence, and the ascendancy of Caron Butler was related to Butler getting in great shape, working with Dave Hopla on his shot, and improving his diet.

And the characterization of Gil "jacking up" shots is silly. From 04-05 through 06-07 (basically from when Hughes left to when Arenas hurt his knee), Gil was among the league's most efficient high usage players. Among players who used 25% or more of their team's possessions during those seasons, Arenas was 5th best in offensive rating (points produced per 100 possessions -- this stat includes shooting efficiency, offensive rebounding, assists and turnovers).

His ortg was 115.0 in a league that was averaging about 107.0. The high usage guys ahead of him: Dirk (121.3), Amare (118.4), Ginobili (116.8), Ray Allen (116.1). Behind him were guys like KG, Elton Brand, Kobe, Lebron, Redd, Wade, Pierce, Yao, Gasol, Boozer, Maggette, Duncan, Parker, Rip Hamilton, and Shaq.

All of this leads me back to the basic point that the Wizards' problem in those seasons had absolutely nothing to do with Gil's offensive game, or their overall offensive performance. The problem was defense. Swapping Gil out for a "pure PG" wouldn't have made the team any better unless that guy could have maintained their offensive efficiency while improving their defense.

[closg00]

This article could also go gone in the EJ thread, or the media thread.
http://www.hoopsaddict.com/2009/06/04/p ... ggeration/

[Severn Hoos]

In my view, West is exactly the kind of pro I envisioned when I voted for him to be the NCAA Player of the Year his senior season (I had a vote that year).

And who was it who convinced you to vote for West?





Yep, it's feast-or-famine with Sev's Scouting Service ("Randolph Childress will DOMINATE the NBA!")

[pancakes3]

My Joe Forte was your Randolph Childress.

I also thought Mason was going to cause a ruckus when he declared back in 2002. Not "hey he's better than i thought" ruckus but rather "wow this guy is the next allan houston" ruckus. my friend and i used to practice his patented crossover stepback 3 for hours on end.

[TheSecretWeapon]

In my view, West is exactly the kind of pro I envisioned when I voted for him to be the NCAA Player of the Year his senior season (I had a vote that year).

And who was it who convinced you to vote for West?

CCJ.

[Brenice]

I was watching Wiz/Cav on ESPN Classic yesterday. A healthy Gil took over. He then made a play, driving the lane and dishing to a wide open........Michael Ruffin, who blew the layup. That was Gil's fault. The point is, Gil did setup the post players. The problem is these post players were putrid if they couldn't dunk the ball. Yes, Haywood is much, much better than he was back then, but that was not Gilberts fault. The improvement in Haywood's game is credited to Haywood.

Saying CP3 helped make Chandler a better player could be true. Yes he sets him up for dunks on the alley oop. Gilbert did not have a finisher coordinated enough and played above the rim. Noone on the team back when Gil was healthy could catch an oop. Jeffries, Etan can't. Haywood still can't, as improved as he is. You now got JaVale, Nick, and McGuire who are coordinated and play above the rim.

Give Gil some credit. Washington averaged >100 pts. per game with Gil. And they had absolutely no low-post threat. Gil has much more talent to work with now and an improved, even if not dominant Haywood in the post.

[yungal07]

I was watching Wiz/Cav on ESPN Classic yesterday. A healthy Gil took over. He then made a play, driving the lane and dishing to a wide open........Michael Ruffin, who blew the layup. That was Gil's fault. The point is, Gil did setup the post players. The problem is these post players were putrid if they couldn't dunk the ball. Yes, Haywood is much, much better than he was back then, but that was not Gilberts fault. The improvement in Haywood's game is credited to Haywood.

Saying CP3 helped make Chandler a better player could be true. Yes he sets him up for dunks on the alley oop. Gilbert did not have a finisher coordinated enough and played above the rim. Noone on the team back when Gil was healthy could catch an oop. Jeffries, Etan can't. Haywood still can't, as improved as he is. You now got JaVale, Nick, and McGuire who are coordinated and play above the rim.

Give Gil some credit. Washington averaged >100 pts. per game with Gil. And they had absolutely no low-post threat. Gil has much more talent to work with now and an improved, even if not dominant Haywood in the post.

I didn't want to bother clicking on this thread, but I'm glad I did because I got to read Secretweapon's response to the Gilbert naysayers.

I can't believe anyone would badmouth Gil because he "shoots too much." The team thrived when he shot the ball. The reason for that is simple...he is the best player on this team at creating his own shot. So why wouldn't you want your best scoring option to shoot the the most? People get so wrapped up in positions and labels that they reject common sense.

[Dat2U]

If Arenas makes people so much better...what the hell happened last year when we made the playoffs without him? That obviously shows that our team is good without him...not better, but still good. I'm just saying, if he passed the ball more we would be a MUCH better team because we have a lot of other scorers to pick up the slack. Gil jacking up 20 shots a night is unneccessary.

Ever heard the phrase that there's "more than one way to skin a cat"? Just b/c Arenas isn't the classic pass-first PG doesn't mean he's not successful at playing the position. He simply has a different skillset (as opposed to a Jason Kidd or Chris Paul) and makes an impact on the game in a different way. Apparently you think there's only one way of playing the PG position. I disagree with this.

TSW laid out all the data you needed to see. Offensively were one of the best in the league with Gil. For someone who you say is a complete ball jacker & refuses to involve his teammates, Gil still managed to average around 6 assists a game, even while putting up near 30 pts a night.

Did you ever think that maybe Gil was just the best scoring option we had? He certainly was our most efficient scorer despite your opinion. All the numbers say he was an elite scorer. Why would it be better for Gil to not take shots so he could get less efficient scorers involved?

The reasons for the Wizards being able to tread water in '07-'08 while Gil was out was due to player development, not just guys getting more touches. Butler slimmed down, expanded his range out to the 3 point line and became a better playmaker with the ball. Haywood got more minutes and finally learned to hit his free throws. Roger Mason finally gained some confidence and showed that he could hit jumpers in the game much like he did in practice alll those years. Andray Blatche was entering his third year, finally played his way into the rotation and showed to be relatively productive, if not consistent.

I just want Gil back healthy doing what he does best and playing the way he was most comfortable playing. I think it was easier for him to play as an assist man for those 2 games this past year b/c of the rust and he wasn't sure what he could do physically. I suspect he'll be a more agressive scorer this fall as he regains confidence in his knee and continues to work off the rust from the long layoff.

I never had a a huge problem with Gil's shot selection. He's proven that he's not just a volume shooter, he's a volume scorer. His presence creates open shots and easy scoring opportunities for his teammates. If he simply take a more mature approach in the locker room (no online poker at halftime would be a start) and becomes more focused at the defensive end, he'll be a more complete player and team leader.

I'm not looking for Gil to revamp his game. Why mess with success? When healthy he's one of the best players in the league.

[pancakes3]

well... some of the shots he takes make me scream NOOOOOO as he's doing it, but after he pulls it off so consistently, there's really nothing you can say about it. especially his 30 foot specials where there's no rhyme or reason to which ones he takes and which ones he passes up.

[Ced67]

Who has he made better? Well, Hughes, Jeffries, and Stevensons pockets sure do appreciate Gil right now. They have proven they suck without Gil. Hell, Caron grew into an All-Star playing next to Gil.

Couldn't it also be Eddie Jordan's wide open system that allows everyone who plays in it to put up great offensive numbers. Without Gil, Caron and Roger Mason had career years and Antonio Daniels had one of his best years including a career high in assists. As for the list above, they've all proven that they suck without Eddie Jordan, not Gil. DeShawn Stevenson had the same scoring average without Gil in 07-08 as he did with Gil in 06-07 along with having a career high in assists. And Caron may have grown into an All Star playing beside Gil, but he had his 2 best seasons without him, in large part playing either under Eddie Jordan or in his system. It was more Eddie Jordan than Gil.

[Ced67]

WOW @ this "logic"

Yes Tyson Chandler is a good rebounder BUT CP3 throws countless alleys to him...which makes him respectable on the offensive end. Arenas has never made an offensively inept player play better.

"Inept" is way too strong a word for Chandler. "Limited" is better, and he's still limited. He has gotten more efficient with Paul, and Paul definitely deserves a good chunk of credit.

The difference between D.West and Jamison is Jamison was good BEFORE Arenas. As soon as CP3 arrived in NO, David West career took off. See the difference? Plus, and I understand that we are both bias Wiz fans, but D.West is much better than Jamison. Don't kid yourself.

It's tough to say how much credit Paul deserves with West. West was solid as a rookie (backing up PJ Brown). He was injured his 2nd season, and then made a big leap in his 3rd season. Yes, that's when Paul arrived, but it was also the season when players typically make their big improvement. In my view, West is exactly the kind of pro I envisioned when I voted for him to be the NCAA Player of the Year his senior season (I had a vote that year).

Bottom line is...Kmart was an allstar with J.Kidd, withouth him...he hasn't been back. Which is the point I was making, J.Kidd makes him better. How can you even refute this? lol

After that All-Star season, Martin had persistent knee troubles that eventually led to microfracture surgery.

lol @ Comparing Arenas to Kobe..which happens to be a SG. You are proving my point for me. PGs pass to make their teammates better! Hell even when Kobe passes the ball, the game comes easier to him. You do watch other teams dont you?

This sort of comment suggests the notion that Arenas did whatever he wanted to do on the court. This wasn't the case. The coaches wanted him to score because he did it with extreme efficiency and volume. It was his job to take shots. Pure PG or not, the Arenas-led offense was plenty good enough to win. As has been pointed out dozens of times, the problem with the team was not their offensive style or that Arenas wasn't a "pure PG," it was that they sucked on defense.

Side note: The adjusted +/- folks say that PGs are the least valuable players (at least according to adjusted +/-). Lots of debate is still going on about a) whether it's a valid finding, and b) why this might be the case (if it's a valid finding).

If Arenas makes people so much better...what the hell happened last year when we made the playoffs without him? That obviously shows that our team is good without him...not better, but still good. I'm just saying, if he passed the ball more we would be a MUCH better team because we have a lot of other scorers to pick up the slack. Gil jacking up 20 shots a night is unneccessary.

I addressed that question in this piece for RealGM. To summarize: that playoff season without Arenas, the Wizards got worse on offense and a bit better on defense. In the article, I make the case that the offensive decline was attributable to Arenas being out, the relative defensive improvement was not attributable to Arenas' absence, and the ascendancy of Caron Butler was related to Butler getting in great shape, working with Dave Hopla on his shot, and improving his diet.

And the characterization of Gil "jacking up" shots is silly. From 04-05 through 06-07 (basically from when Hughes left to when Arenas hurt his knee), Gil was among the league's most efficient high usage players. Among players who used 25% or more of their team's possessions during those seasons, Arenas was 5th best in offensive rating (points produced per 100 possessions -- this stat includes shooting efficiency, offensive rebounding, assists and turnovers).

His ortg was 115.0 in a league that was averaging about 107.0. The high usage guys ahead of him: Dirk (121.3), Amare (118.4), Ginobili (116.8), Ray Allen (116.1). Behind him were guys like KG, Elton Brand, Kobe, Lebron, Redd, Wade, Pierce, Yao, Gasol, Boozer, Maggette, Duncan, Parker, Rip Hamilton, and Shaq.

All of this leads me back to the basic point that the Wizards' problem in those seasons had absolutely nothing to do with Gil's offensive game, or their overall offensive performance. The problem was defense. Swapping Gil out for a "pure PG" wouldn't have made the team any better unless that guy could have maintained their offensive efficiency while improving their defense.

I think this is a big part of the argument for and against Gil. There's no question that Gil is an efficient scorer but there is an argument that a PG should not be taking 20+ shots a game. I have always said, if Gil was 6'5 and played the 2 I wouldn't have a problem with the way he plays because he wouldn't necessarily have to dominate the ball, but when you handle the ball as much as Arenas and are responsible for setting the offense, you can't shoot the ball that much, even if you are an efficient scorer. If he's the most efficient option then why not let him take all the shots. Its great that he's an efficient scorer but 1 player can't win all the games. You have to get your teammates involved regularly and make them viable threats and not just 2 other guys. If you have the ball in your hands as much as Gil you should be averaging more than 5-6 assists per game. I've always liked the idea of playing Arenas like Ben Gordon in Chicago and letting someone else run the point. Ben Gordon is still allowed to focus on scoring, but does a lot of it from running the offense while letting the offense run and letting the others actually touch the ball.

[yungal07]

Who has he made better? Well, Hughes, Jeffries, and Stevensons pockets sure do appreciate Gil right now. They have proven they suck without Gil. Hell, Caron grew into an All-Star playing next to Gil.

Couldn't it also be Eddie Jordan's wide open system that allows everyone who plays in it to put up great offensive numbers. Without Gil, Caron and Roger Mason had career years and Antonio Daniels had one of his best years including a career high in assists. As for the list above, they've all proven that they suck without Eddie Jordan, not Gil. DeShawn Stevenson had the same scoring average without Gil in 07-08 as he did with Gil in 06-07 along with having a career high in assists. And Caron may have grown into an All Star playing beside Gil, but he had his 2 best seasons without him, in large part playing either under Eddie Jordan or in his system. It was more Eddie Jordan than Gil.

You are being misleading here.

First off, Caron Butler's "career year" without Gilbert was 1.2 points better than the year playing with Gil, so you're position that Gilbert was holding Caron back holds very little weight. Secondly...LOL at Gilbert hold Roger Mason back. Are you serious dude? The guy didn't play when Gil was healthy. He averaged 7 minutes per game and shot 33% from the floor in 07. If anyone was holding Roger back, it was Eddie Jordan. As for Deshawn -- yes his scoring average was the same from his last year in Orlando to his first year in Washington, but again your being misleading. His per went up a resounding 4% and his efg% went up 5%. Just going by watching the games, you'd see Deshawn benefit from Gilbert because alot of times his man would leave him wide open to help on Gil. DS got a ton of open shots just from Gilbert's presence.

Your flinging poo and hoping it sticks bro. No offense.

[Ced67]

Who has he made better? Well, Hughes, Jeffries, and Stevensons pockets sure do appreciate Gil right now. They have proven they suck without Gil. Hell, Caron grew into an All-Star playing next to Gil.

Couldn't it also be Eddie Jordan's wide open system that allows everyone who plays in it to put up great offensive numbers. Without Gil, Caron and Roger Mason had career years and Antonio Daniels had one of his best years including a career high in assists. As for the list above, they've all proven that they suck without Eddie Jordan, not Gil. DeShawn Stevenson had the same scoring average without Gil in 07-08 as he did with Gil in 06-07 along with having a career high in assists. And Caron may have grown into an All Star playing beside Gil, but he had his 2 best seasons without him, in large part playing either under Eddie Jordan or in his system. It was more Eddie Jordan than Gil.

You are being misleading here.

First off, Caron Butler's "career year" without Gilbert was 1.2 points better than the year playing with Gil, so you're position that Gilbert was holding Caron back holds very little weight. Secondly...LOL at Gilbert hold Roger Mason back. Are you serious dude? The guy didn't play when Gil was healthy. He averaged 7 minutes per game and shot 33% from the floor in 07. If anyone was holding Roger back, it was Eddie Jordan. As for Deshawn -- yes his scoring average was the same from his last year in Orlando to his first year in Washington, but again your being misleading. His per went up a resounding 4% and his efg% went up 5%. Just going by watching the games, you'd see Deshawn benefit from Gilbert because alot of times his man would leave him wide open to help on Gil. DS got a ton of open shots just from Gilbert's presence.

Your flinging poo and hoping it sticks bro. No offense.

Please read my post, when did I ever say that Gil held anyone back???? I never said that. I said that those who praise Gil for catapulting other players careers offensively should look more at the system they played in. The fact is anyone who has played decent minutes for Eddie Jordan as a Wizard put up pretty good offensive numbers with or without Gil.

Even though it was only 1.2 points more that Caron averaged without Gil it does show that maybe it wasn't Gil that made Caron so good. After all he didn't play with him and put up slightly better numbers than when he did, the only constant was Eddie Jordan's offense. Please next time, don't twist my argument around to fit your stance. I never said that Gil held anybody back, I said that under Eddie Jordan's offense everyone who played decent minutes had great years whether or not they played with Gil, but I guess that could have always been Gil working his hibachi magic from the sidelines.

[yungal07]

So what point are you trying to make then? It sounds like your implying that Gilbert is holding this team back, but your scared to actually say it (probably because you already know that you would be incorrect in saying this as secretkev already laid out).

[Ced67]

So what point are you trying to make then? It sounds like your implying that Gilbert is holding this team back, but your scared to actually say it (probably because you already know that you would be incorrect in saying this as secretkev already laid out).

Dude...why are you insisting on putting those words in my mouth when Im clearly not saying that. My point is that a good portion of the credit of why players have had career years for the Wizards should go to Eddie Jordan's offense, not just Gilbert. There are some who think that Gil makes his teammates better more than both Kobe, because Caron blew up when he came here after playing with Kobe and even Lebron, because Larry Hughes dropped off of the face of the earth when he went to Cleveland after being an all star here, even Gil has hinted at this. My stance is that the reason those two and others are so good here has more to do with the offense than the presence of Gil.

[Ced67]

So what point are you trying to make then? It sounds like your implying that Gilbert is holding this team back, but your scared to actually say it (probably because you already know that you would be incorrect in saying this as secretkev already laid out).

Dude...why are you insisting on putting those words in my mouth when Im clearly not saying that. My point is that a good portion of the credit of why players have had career years for the Wizards should go to Eddie Jordan's offense, not just Gilbert. There are some who think that Gil makes his teammates better more than both Kobe, because Caron blew up when he came here after playing with Kobe and even Lebron, because Larry Hughes dropped off of the face of the earth when he went to Cleveland after being an all star here, even Gil has hinted at this. My stance is that the reason those two and others are so good here has more to do with the offense than the presence of Gil.

youngal07, here's the quote that is part of the reason I feel the way I do:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/w ... index.html

"I've been doing it my whole career -- when I had Larry [Hughes, who averaged 22 points in 2004-05 alongside Jamison's 19.6); Antawn, Caron," Arenas said. "I don't see Dwyane [Wade] doing that. I don't see Kobe doing that. I didn't see AI doing that. I don't see LeBron [James] doing it -- there's not another scorer with him scoring 20."

"I mean, AI did it [last year with 24.8 points for Denver after his trade from Philadelphia] because Carmelo already was having 30, so they never started from the beginning where two other players were averaging [close to] 20 points. And the way I can do that is because I push the ball so much that we're getting opportunities. It's not like we're taking 60 shots and I'm taking 30 of them. I took 25 shots [in Wednesday's season-opening overtime loss at Indiana] and we had 99 attempts. Antawn had 25 shots. Caron had 19 shots. So your Big Three is still getting their opportunities.

"Nobody realizes how valuable I really am to teams. It's like, 'Oh, we don't know if he can be a point guard.' Well, every guard out there can't be me. But if I lose my speed, I can be them.'' - Gilbert Arenas
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The part that's bolded is another part of the reason I feel the way I do. Caron took 19 shots and Jamsion and Arenas both took 25 shots and the team as a whole took 99 in this particular game. Is that more a product of Eddie Jordan's offense or Gilbert making guys better. When you have the 2nd and 3rd best players on a team taking 25 and 19 shots in a single game they're bound to score more points. This is only one example but I think we can both agree that Eddie Jordan's system allows for more shots to go up which is why people have great offensive years while playing here. Gil is not on the level of Chris Paul, Lebron, DWade or Kobe as far as making his teammates better, he simply happened to play in a system that allowed everyone to get off offensively because more shots went up. If this team was coached by Greg Popovich instead of EJ we wouldn't be having this conversation. Period.

[yungal07]

So how come their offensive rating went down from 07 to 08? Why is it that they went from averaging 104 ppg to 98 ppg? Surely if EJ's offense is solely the reason why this team was good offensively, then it only makes sense that they'd continue to score at the same efficiency and output, right?

Nope. Again, I think you're reaching for straws to discredit Gilbert. But you're not going to convert me. There's simply too much statistical evidence that shows that Gilbert is a great offensive player.