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Trade with DETROIT?

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HeroicKennedy
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#21 » by HeroicKennedy » Mon Jun 8, 2009 4:40 am

Something I wrote in the Trade Forum:
jgustav1 wrote:
vege wrote:Kwame starting and Prince as our SF is much better than no Prince and a injured Kaman, unless Kaman stays health an entire season no one will take the risk to eat up his big deal. But whatever, i have to write the same thing every time a Kaman/Prince deal is posted and it happens 3-4 times/week so meh not going to keep repeating myself.


You don't get the fact that the Pistons can replace Prince with a SF through free agency. Unless you think Okur is a good free agent C and the Pistons would be willing to sign him, Kaman + free agent SF is better than Kwame or free agent C + Prince for the Pistons. Kaman doesn't just have the potential to average 15 ppg, 12 rpg and over 2 bpg, he has already done it over a season.

Can they? It's debatable.

I don't see Marion or Turkoglu being better than Prince (factoring in the fact that they'd want more money then him and are both 30+ years old), leaving Williams and Ariza as the biggest SF targets (no chance in HELL Artest ever wears a Piston jersey), and both the Hawks and Lakers are very intent on keeping those players (both are restricted). There's a good chance we hand a 4 year, $38-40 million deal to one of those two, and be paying them that until they're in their mid 30's. By contract, Prince only has two years left, making him (next season) a nice expiring contract.

If they stay healthy, I agree, Kaman + Free Agent SF (even if he's not as good) is better than Kwame + Prince. But that's the key: if 'he's healthy. When you miss 77 games over two seasons and it's supposedly due to the same foot ailment, questions should arise. Yes, Kaman put up 15-12-2 over a season. Keep in mind: a shortened where he only played 56 games. This aspect should not be ignored, as missing 26 games is nearly 1/3 of the season. Can he do 15-12-2 for an entire seasons? This year he went 12-8-1.5 (over 31 games). The year prior to his breakout season, 10-8-1.6 during a 76 game season. These are serious issues that shouldn't be taken lightly. Yes, have averaged 15-12-2. It's very impressive. It's also only about 1/8th of his entire career.

If Kaman can stay just healthy enough to play some games but not enough to medically retire, all of a sudden we've got an albatross of a contract on our payroll for the next few years. Even throwing in Thornton (I don't care for him) might not be enough of an incentive.

Like I said, this is not plan A, B, C, or D. This will be around H and that's only after confirmation that Kaman's health issues are a thing of the past.
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#22 » by jgustav1 » Mon Jun 8, 2009 2:35 pm

HeroicKennedy, Kaman has not missed 77 games over the last 2 seasons due to the same foot ailment. He has missed games to his arch problem, shin, sprained ankle and flu over the last couple seasons. He also isn't close to "medical retirement" so he can't be acquired for Amir Johnson + #15 as you and vege seem to insist his trade value is. Both of you seem to be happy with Kwame Brown as the Piston starting C anyway.
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#23 » by ClipperDomination » Tue Jun 9, 2009 12:01 am

HeroicKennedy wrote:Something I wrote in the Trade Forum:
jgustav1 wrote:
vege wrote:Kwame starting and Prince as our SF is much better than no Prince and a injured Kaman, unless Kaman stays health an entire season no one will take the risk to eat up his big deal. But whatever, i have to write the same thing every time a Kaman/Prince deal is posted and it happens 3-4 times/week so meh not going to keep repeating myself.


You don't get the fact that the Pistons can replace Prince with a SF through free agency. Unless you think Okur is a good free agent C and the Pistons would be willing to sign him, Kaman + free agent SF is better than Kwame or free agent C + Prince for the Pistons. Kaman doesn't just have the potential to average 15 ppg, 12 rpg and over 2 bpg, he has already done it over a season.

Can they? It's debatable.

I don't see Marion or Turkoglu being better than Prince (factoring in the fact that they'd want more money then him and are both 30+ years old), leaving Williams and Ariza as the biggest SF targets (no chance in HELL Artest ever wears a Piston jersey), and both the Hawks and Lakers are very intent on keeping those players (both are restricted). There's a good chance we hand a 4 year, $38-40 million deal to one of those two, and be paying them that until they're in their mid 30's. By contract, Prince only has two years left, making him (next season) a nice expiring contract.

If they stay healthy, I agree, Kaman + Free Agent SF (even if he's not as good) is better than Kwame + Prince. But that's the key: if 'he's healthy. When you miss 77 games over two seasons and it's supposedly due to the same foot ailment, questions should arise. Yes, Kaman put up 15-12-2 over a season. Keep in mind: a shortened where he only played 56 games. This aspect should not be ignored, as missing 26 games is nearly 1/3 of the season. Can he do 15-12-2 for an entire seasons? This year he went 12-8-1.5 (over 31 games). The year prior to his breakout season, 10-8-1.6 during a 76 game season. These are serious issues that shouldn't be taken lightly. Yes, have averaged 15-12-2. It's very impressive. It's also only about 1/8th of his entire career.

If Kaman can stay just healthy enough to play some games but not enough to medically retire, all of a sudden we've got an albatross of a contract on our payroll for the next few years. Even throwing in Thornton (I don't care for him) might not be enough of an incentive.

Like I said, this is not plan A, B, C, or D. This will be around H and that's only after confirmation that Kaman's health issues are a thing of the past.


He didn't miss all of those games due to injury...

Proof of evidence: http://www.clipsnation.com/2009/3/9/787 ... -season-ti

"What is going on with Kaman?"
-This was a touchy subject. The organization is geniunely pissed at Kaman and his agent. Due to the clause in the Collective Bargaining Agreement, players are allowed to get a second opinion from their own doctor (i.e. their agents doctor) and then decide what's best for them.

In this case the Clippers laid out a general window of when Chris will be able to start working out again with the team. Unfortunately, his doctor gave a much longer time for healing, which is why he's still currently not playing. Add that to him getting sick and everything else, he's totally milking the system. This is really sad to me because I've always been a hugh Kaman backer.

They compared this decision to the of Tracy McGrady. The Houston Rockets DID NOT want him to have surgery, they found it unnecesssary. Unfortunately, he has a contract year next season and doesn't want to be injured for sure. So, he followed his agents doctor and got the surgery. The team found out about it in the newspaper. How about that?

With Kaman, I believe he is the player the team is most likely to move during the offseason for this problem. That's what I got out of it. If he was healthy they would have unloaded him before the trade deadline, but once again the offers were low.
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#24 » by HeroicKennedy » Tue Jun 9, 2009 12:39 am

The idea of him milking injuries is even more worrisome. Legit injuries are one thing, but non-serious injuries causing him to miss time? I don't like that. I mean, Boozer is already suspect of this and I don't really want him. But if Kaman's doing the same thing...
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#25 » by ClipperDomination » Tue Jun 9, 2009 1:46 am

He hates his team and coach, and playing for a team near his hometown would give Kaman a lot more to play for on his part.
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#26 » by Hooch20 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:07 am

ClipperDomination wrote:He hates his team and coach, and playing for a team near his hometown would give Kaman a lot more to play for on his part.


Are you friends with Kaman? I've never read anything about him having problems with his teammates or coach.
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#27 » by HeroicKennedy » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:38 am

Hooch20 wrote:
ClipperDomination wrote:He hates his team and coach, and playing for a team near his hometown would give Kaman a lot more to play for on his part.


Are you friends with Kaman? I've never read anything about him having problems with his teammates or coach.

Whether it's true or not, I don't particularly care for a player who only plays hard for people he likes. You're getting $10 million a season to play a game. You don't have any right to half-ass anything.
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#28 » by ClipperDomination » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:45 am

Hooch20 wrote:
ClipperDomination wrote:He hates his team and coach, and playing for a team near his hometown would give Kaman a lot more to play for on his part.


Are you friends with Kaman? I've never read anything about him having problems with his teammates or coach.


I know someone who has worked with the Clipps for the past 2 seasons and has had communication with the players, and that's what he kept telling me throughout last season...

Why else would he be milking an injury? Cause he wants to play?
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#29 » by Warspite » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:00 am

As a Pistons fan I would rather not have Thronton and I would rather keep Amir and trade his exprieing contract and TPE in a trade for someone like David Lee or Carlos Boozer.

Would you consider Kaman for Prince with you throwing in a future top 20 protected 1st and then declining in protection over the course of several yrs??

I dont realy for a 2nd rd pick and I fully understand that a Clippers 1st rd pick is almsot always high but if the trade worked out for you and the Clipps became a winner would you be willing to plart with a late 1st rd pick??

Of course if the trade doesnt work out for you its still like a 2016-18 1st rd pick. I would be willing to wait several yrs to cash in a pick as defered payment much like the Grizz pick from 2003.
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#30 » by jgustav1 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:19 pm

Warspite wrote:As a Pistons fan I would rather not have Thronton and I would rather keep Amir and trade his exprieing contract and TPE in a trade for someone like David Lee or Carlos Boozer.

Would you consider Kaman for Prince with you throwing in a future top 20 protected 1st and then declining in protection over the course of several yrs??

I dont realy for a 2nd rd pick and I fully understand that a Clippers 1st rd pick is almsot always high but if the trade worked out for you and the Clipps became a winner would you be willing to plart with a late 1st rd pick??

Of course if the trade doesnt work out for you its still like a 2016-18 1st rd pick. I would be willing to wait several yrs to cash in a pick as defered payment much like the Grizz pick from 2003.


No, it would have to be Kaman for Prince straight up.
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#31 » by Hooch20 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:54 pm

ClipperDomination wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
ClipperDomination wrote:He hates his team and coach, and playing for a team near his hometown would give Kaman a lot more to play for on his part.


Are you friends with Kaman? I've never read anything about him having problems with his teammates or coach.


I know someone who has worked with the Clipps for the past 2 seasons and has had communication with the players, and that's what he kept telling me throughout last season...

Why else would he be milking an injury? Cause he wants to play?


Would it ever cross your mind that he's really injured? He even stated that when he came back he still had pain in the foot. There's also no reason to rush back from injury when the team is long out of the playoff picture. Should he just rush back before he's ready, making it more likely to be re-injured?
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Re: Trade with DETROIT? 

Post#32 » by Liqourish » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:18 pm

As a Piston fan, I would do Kaman/Thornton for Prince/pick but not Kaman for Prince straight up. Prince is worth more even though Kaman is a center. Dumars was high on Thornton in the draft and was torn between him and Stuckey. Getting him for this year #15 would be a good incentive to do the Prince/Kaman swap. Pistons still have a ton of capspace to sign a PF and SF. Clippers get a starting SF and a pick and clear up some of their logjam in the frontcourt.

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