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Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event

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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#341 » by aboveAverage » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:48 am

Why let a more talented PG go and waste your draft pick filling that hole? It's like purposely letting a leak spring, and then using a valuable resource to plug the hole instead of using it on something better.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#342 » by BDUB_30 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:50 am

paulpressey25 wrote:Bdub is taking what I think are two decent points he's made for the last four months and trying to stretch them into a third.

a) This management team doesn't care for CV and decided at the deadline they want RJ over CV
b) Skiles wants to win now, and it's plausible he'd prefer a Ridnour/#10 PG rotation over a Sessions/#10 PG rotation for next year "win-now" purposes.

But I think B-dub is overplaying those two good points into a "Hammond doesn't want Ramon around" riff that I don't buy. But we'll find out soon enough if he's right.



Youre like a good goalie , nothing gets past you ..


I just cant fathom Hammond valuing ramon as some of you do , or even valuing him much at all and he fails to pull the trigger on the trade that not only brings Ramon back , but brings ersan over and another decent bench player ..

Something doesnt add up here , youre all basicaly saying that Hammond is dumb .. i mean that is the bottom line here .. you all are saying Hammond is a moron that cant count . I dont buy that at all .. Im giving the best explination as to what could be going on in hammonds head .. The idea is , he simply isnt to fond of Sessions nor what was offered for Ramon and would prefer having RJ around .


I dont understand why that is so hard to concider a possibility. Especialy when you look at the comments skiles and hammond have made .. It just doesnt seem like that big of a stretch to me .


The big evidence is the statistics . Ramons stats are very nice . But ive seen this to many times in the nba . Ive seen to many guys put up good numbers ( better then Ramons ) and still not be valuable assets around the nba , still not be very well respected around the nba .

and then theirs the games . .watching ramon do a horrible job of running the offense , do a horrible job rotating on defense and keeping his man in front of him ...then it all starts to make a bit more sense to me .. in the end , i feel that hammond and skiles basicaly view this game OUTSIDE of the box score and really value the finer points of the game that are not measured . and thats why the charlie bells and moutes play minutes for these guys because they are willing to do the finer things .

I think skiles has made it clear ...he doesnt want Ramon here , PERIOD .


as you said . we will see ..
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#343 » by europa » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:50 am

If you're among those who believe the J/S columns and info comes directly from the Bucks, then perhaps it's important to remember that one of the columns Enlund wrote was about how one of the main benefits of the Mo trade was that it would pave the way for the Bucks to re-sign Sessions. If we're going to believe Enlund (and Gardner) write stuff based on what the Bucks tell them, then we have to assume that info came from the Bucks as well.

If Hammond and Skiles wanted Sessions gone, then they would've pushed harder to get the Conley deal done in my opinion. It's idiotic to pass on a trade for a player of Conley's talent and potential if the guy you're trading is someone you want gone. That the Bucks were the ones to turn down the trade and that they didn't push harder to get a deal done in some fashion leads me to believe Hammond and Skiles aren't determined to be rid of Sessions. I think they simply are unsure what is true value is and that's why we're not getting any strong signals from them that Sessions is going to stay with the Bucks no matter what.

But like I said, there is zero downside to re-signing Sessions to a reasonable contract. The Bucks lose nothing and could potentially gain a helluva lot. That's what makes this such a slam-dunk decision.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#344 » by LUKE23 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:52 am

It also makes it monumentally bad if he walks considering the availability of the Conley deal. It will either be really good or really bad with Ramon, no in between.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#345 » by BDUB_30 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:54 am

You want to add another dynamic to the discussion ( by the way this is a good discussion ) .. then allow me .


TO add to how skiles / hammond feel about the Pg position , you need to look no further then MO williams .


Mo williams is a superior G to Ramon ...we dont need to get into that , we can just say they are comparables ...that is a fair assesment we can all agree with .


Hammond just let mo go for a f'n luke ridnour .... :lol: ..and you guys want me to beleive Ramon sessions is a priority ? Now fair enough , $$$ is a concideration ...but i dont think mo was so overpaid , maybe slightly ..but not dealbreaking .


So what gives ? Could it be that hammond and skiles have an idea about how that position is suppose to be played .. and if youre not playing it that way ( running their sets ) they have no interest in you being on their team ?
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#346 » by europa » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:57 am

LUKE23 wrote:It also makes it monumentally bad if he walks considering the availability of the Conley deal.


Yup. That's the kicker with Sessions. There was an option available to replace him (arguably for a player with more upside) and it's one the Bucks turned down. It's simply idiotic to turn down a trade for a talented player if the player you're giving up is someone you don't want to begin with. That's why it makes no sense that Hammond and Skiles want Sessions gone. They likely have questions about him and what type of contract he should receive, but if they didn't want him, then you don't turn down the Conley trade. Simple as that.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#347 » by LUKE23 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:58 am

edit
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#348 » by InsideOut » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:58 am

BDUB_30 wrote:
InsideOut wrote:
If you and Hammond feel that Session is worthless, then why would the offers need to be substantial?

If he didn't like him as a player and was just going to drop him, then why not take anything in return for him. What sense does it make for Hammond to say Sessions was getting the most interest and then get nothing for him if he didn't want to keep him in the first place. It's stuff like this that makes many of us wonder how smart Hammond is.


Youre saying , as is everyone else , that its better to get something then nothing .. i disagree , their is players in this game that have a negative impact on your roster .


Wrong. We are not saying that at all. We are saying it is better to get anything of value than get nothing at all. Why would any of us want him to trade for a negative? In fact, why would any GM trade for a negative impact player?

We simply don't trade him for a negative impact player. Trade him for a positive impact player, trade him for a pick...even if it is only a 2nd round one. How about use him to trade with another player to dump salary. If Hammond was getting all the interest he said he was then common sense says he could have traded him for more than a negative impact player.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#349 » by aboveAverage » Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:58 am

Well at least Hammond got SOMETHING for Mo (albeit not much IMO). If he lets a guard with more potential (Sessions) walk for nothing, then he might be the worst GM ever. Thankfully, I don't think Hammond is that stupid. He is just afraid of Ramon getting an extreme offer. Bdub, as much as you want to believe that Hammond hates Sessions, that's just not the case. If he hated him, the Conley deal would have been done in a second. Hammond keeping him for the rest of the year is all the evidence I need that shows that Hammond values Sessions, at the right price.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#350 » by europa » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:00 am

aboveAverage wrote:He is just afraid of Ramon getting an extreme offer.


There is definitely some concern that Sessions' price tag could be beyond what the Bucks want to pay. However, I think there's a very good chance the market works in the Bucks' favor with Sessions. We're going to know a lot more about that on draft night.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#351 » by LUKE23 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:01 am

Yup. That's the kicker with Sessions. There was an option available to replace him (arguably for a player with more upside) and it's one the Bucks turned down. It's simply idiotic to turn down a trade for a talented player if the player you're giving up is someone you don't want to begin with. That's why it makes no sense that Hammond and Skiles want Sessions gone. They likely have questions about him and what type of contract he should receive, but if they didn't want him, then you don't turn down the Conley trade. Simple as that.


I have to say europa, for all the flak you take of being a Hammond apologist, I think you're being pretty objective with your outlook towards the offseason.

I'll readily admit that I've been called a Hammond hater and maybe rightfully so, but I'm going to give him this full offseason to show what kind of direction he's going to take. I just feel he's made it hard on himself financially when he didn't have to.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#352 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:02 am

europa wrote:But I would respectfully disagree with Skiles and Hammond if they believe Ridnour/10 gives the Bucks a better chance to win now than Sessions/10.


I'm all for Ramon simply based on the upside he has. It is worth it to me for him to have the starting job next year. But I think some guys underestimate the value of a Steve Blake or Luke Ridnour. When you've got $50 million in salary allocated to the other positions, certain coaches just want a guy who doesn't make mistakes.

Last year for example, Sessions made a number of boneheaded turnovers at key points. From your perspective and mine, those are growing pains he might work his way through. And we'd argue that Sessions A/TO ratio was still excellent. But those key TO's eat away at a guy like Skiles who lives and dies on every possession and every win/loss. There was a reason Ridnour came back in the Mo trade versus an expiring and a reason why Ridnour was immediately named the starter. Skiles has more confidence in him. Doesn't mean Ridnour is a good player. Just that Skiles trusts him more. The team was winning with Ridnour as the starter and all the other players healthy.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#353 » by aboveAverage » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:02 am

I don't think even Europa will defend Hammond if he lets Sessions go for a reasonable price.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#354 » by InsideOut » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:04 am

europa wrote:
If Hammond and Skiles wanted Sessions gone, then they would've pushed harder to get the Conley deal done in my opinion. It's idiotic to pass on a trade for a player of Conley's talent and potential if the guy you're trading is someone you want gone. That the Bucks were the ones to turn down the trade and that they didn't push harder to get a deal done in some fashion leads me to believe Hammond and Skiles aren't determined to be rid of Sessions. I think they simply are unsure what is true value is and that's why we're not getting any strong signals from them that Sessions is going to stay with the Bucks no matter what.


But it was reported that Hammond/Skiles did want to do the deal and it was Kohl that wouldn't let them do it. The report was along the lines of both GMs agreed and were waiting on Kohl to sign off but he never did. We all agree this was what was reported...correct?
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#355 » by LUKE23 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:05 am

But those key TO's eat away at a guy like Skiles who lives and dies on every possession and every win/loss.


They most likely do eat away at Skiles, but if they (Hammond/Skiles) aren't willing to give someone of Ramon's talent more than 95 games at age 23, this team is never going to go anywhere. Sessions is improved ball-handling and jump shooting away from being a very dangerous player.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#356 » by LUKE23 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:07 am

But it was reported that Hammond/Skiles did want to do the deal and it was Kohl that wouldn't let them do it. The report was along the lines of both GMs agreed and were waiting on Kohl to sign off but he never did. We all agree this was what was reported...correct?


One would then think logically (even though it is the Bucks) that if Kohl did shoot that deal down, that he viewed re-signing Ramon as a top priority. Again, that is my logic, but it is the Bucks.

I expect Ridnour's 5 year/$50M extension to be announced July 1.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#357 » by europa » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:10 am

LUKE23 wrote:I have to say europa, for all the flak you take of being a Hammond apologist, I think you're being pretty objective with your outlook towards the offseason.


I'm a realist, Luke. I like much of what Hammond did in his first year but I've said all along he made his job more difficult by not trading RJ at the deadline. It's very possible that decision doesn't turn out to hurt the team. But there's also a chance it does. And if it does, Hammond in my opinion will deserve the criticism he receives.

It's important to remember that I've never said Hammond was a great GM. I've said all along that will be determined over the course of time. One year was not enough time in my opinion to decide if he was a good GM or a bad one. I've simply said I liked most of what he did this year to improve the team. But I've also said this summer could end up being the one which tells us a lot about how good of a GM he is and how successful his tenure with the Bucks will prove to be. I think the team took some strong moves forward this season, but more work needs to be done and Hammond needs to be creative and figure out a way to get those moves done given the limitations he faces from a financial perspective.

And Press, I understand why Skiles trusts Ridnour. I've made those same comments before. As much as I like Sessions, he obviously wasn't ready to start at the beginning of last season and Ridnour was a more reliable and safer option. Plus, he helped the Bucks in the first half of the season. So he did his job. But it became pretty obvious once Sessions got more comfortable who the superior player was and it wasn't even close. Did Sessions make mistakes? Of course he did. He was basically a rookie and there aren't too many rookies who don't make boneheaded mistakes at some point. That's how it works.

But if the option is to go from Sessions/Ridnour to Ridnour/10 then you've taken a step back and likely a large one. I don't believe the PG taken at 10 will be as good as Sessions so that means you've downgraded in talent and plus there will be all those pesky mistakes that rookie PGs tend to make. So how does that help the Bucks win now? If you keep Sessions and he improves, then you have a steadier player with a year of experience in the system. Team him with a young PG whose potential should be higher than Ridnour's (I don't care for Flynn at 10 but he does have more upside than Ridnour) and your potential for improvement grows.

This is such an easy decision to make. It's even easier than the decision to trade Mo, which Hammond pretty much made the second he took the job. There is zero downside to keeping Sessions if the contract is reasonable. Zero. And again I'll say that if Hammond and Skiles never wanted Sessions to begin with, they sure as hell should've pushed to get the Conley deal done. They will look like rather gigantic idiots if their master plan was to get rid of Sessions and they passed on a deal for a talented PG they actually did like instead.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#358 » by InsideOut » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:11 am

LUKE23 wrote:
But it was reported that Hammond/Skiles did want to do the deal and it was Kohl that wouldn't let them do it. The report was along the lines of both GMs agreed and were waiting on Kohl to sign off but he never did. We all agree this was what was reported...correct?


One would then think logically (even though it is the Bucks) that if Kohl did shoot that deal down, that he viewed re-signing Ramon as a top priority. Again, that is my logic, but it is the Bucks.

I expect Ridnour's 5 year/$50M extension to be announced July 1.


But didn't Hammond bring in Stoudlmeyer (sp?) to block this move of Kohl's. :D That crazy idea is starting to make more sense every day.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#359 » by europa » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:12 am

aboveAverage wrote:I don't think even Europa will defend Hammond if he lets Sessions go for a reasonable price.


Nope. One of my biggest pet peeves is getting rid of talented young PGs. I hate it. I cannot think of a single justifiable reason to excuse Hammond for letting Sessions walk if the contract is reasonable. If some team comes in and massively overpays for Sessions, then you do what you have to do and let him go. But if the contract is reasonable as I expect it will be, there is no legitimate reason in my opinion that can be made for not re-signing Sessions. At the very least you'll have a cheap young talent at PG who can be one helluva backup. How does that hurt the team in any way?
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#360 » by randy84 » Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:13 am

paulpressey25 wrote:
europa wrote:But I would respectfully disagree with Skiles and Hammond if they believe Ridnour/10 gives the Bucks a better chance to win now than Sessions/10.


I'm all for Ramon simply based on the upside he has. It is worth it to me for him to have the starting job next year. But I think some guys underestimate the value of a Steve Blake or Luke Ridnour. When you've got $50 million in salary allocated to the other positions, certain coaches just want a guy who doesn't make mistakes.

Last year for example, Sessions made a number of boneheaded turnovers at key points. From your perspective and mine, those are growing pains he might work his way through. And we'd argue that Sessions A/TO ratio was still excellent. But those key TO's eat away at a guy like Skiles who lives and dies on every possession and every win/loss. There was a reason Ridnour came back in the Mo trade versus an expiring and a reason why Ridnour was immediately named the starter. Skiles has more confidence in him. Doesn't mean Ridnour is a good player. Just that Skiles trusts him more. The team was winning with Ridnour as the starter and all the other players healthy.


PP hit the nail on the head. If Skiles really wants Sessions back then Hammond would try everything to keep him. But the reality is that Skiles isn't sold on Sessions. So the team will more than likely try to compete for the next two years with Redd, RJ and Bogut and let their draft picks mature. Then in 2011 the team can fill in the holes with the cap room that they have.

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