Does trading Ray win us a chip during the 'window'?

[Joekickass2008]

Already stacks of chatter bout trading Ray....for vets...for pics...for young players.....even chatter bout trading him and picking him up when he is bought out.

Many people have expressed the value Ray has in the Boston system and that he isn't as valuable in other teams. I agree with this....he is a rare talent...if we were having this discussion after the Chicago series, there would be fewer people saying we need to ship him out.

So, the window for another championship is supposedly 2 more years, who thinks we can make a trade with Ray that keeps this window open and even wins one?

[humblebum]

I believe the Celtics can win a Championship by moving Ray for Top 5 pick in the draft young talent PLUS a high level role player(s). Brendan Haywood + Tyreke Evans (then contract filler) would be a solid deal for the Celtics. They get their backup Center and another Ball handler/Playmaker, that addresses two needs for the Celtics. Then they can go out and get an SG/SF who can shoot and defend and they're pretty well set to compete again.

Ray's value seems to be pretty limited in terms of contributing toward a Championship. The Celtics have been able to compete against playoff teams with Ray actually hurting them with his play. Subtract Ray and add a couple of valuable pieces/role players that fill needs and the Celtics can definitely still compete.

[Bcustom28k]

Ainge will move up in this draft without trading ray or rondo.

[Wizardspride]

I believe the Celtics can win a Championship by moving Ray for Top 5 pick in the draft young talent PLUS a high level role player(s). Brendan Haywood + Tyreke Evans (then contract filler) would be a solid deal for the Celtics.

Considering how important Haywood is to the Wizards, it would take more than an aging Ray Allen to acquire him.

Honestly, I don't believe the Celtics have anything on thier roster (other than KG, of course) that would entice the Wizards to trade Haywood.

[celticfan42487]

Ray disapears against good teams in the playoffs. But his rep is still so high he is at least guaranteed to have one defender covering him.

I'm not sure we can trade him and have enough brought back to the team in return to win a championship.

We'd have to get someone whoes also a shooter most likely. Although that is the easiest player to find in the NBA... it will be difficult to do.

For example, maybe we trade Ray for Redd and MIL likes it to get an expiring. All we did is trade one shooter with an injury history for another with a more recent one. Almost seems useless unless we really think that if we can extend that window 1,2 more years that we'll be able to win it with a downside of career Pierce and KG.

[BRUNiNHO91]

I don't think we win a title without Ray. Maybe if we trade him for Amare or something like that, than we could. But if we trade him for a damn pick, and some regular players we won't win ****. Mark that down...-_-

[humblebum]

Well there's no scenario that guarantees a Championship for the Celtics. But everything comes down to player assessment and probabilities. Ray Allen is basically at the point in his career where his only plus value is his shooting ability. He's not a high-level playmaker with the ball in his hands, he's not a great defender, he doesn't get to the line, and he's not a physical presence. He's a great shooter but he can also be seriously slowed down and often shut down by solid defensive teams. We've seen it happen numerous times over the past two seasons. There's clear evidence of this.

Given those realities and the potential value of Ray and his expiring contract Ainge would be a damn fool not to explore every possibility of trading Ray. Maybe a #5 pick and Haywood is too much to ask for Ray but that's the type of package that Ainge needs to explore. We've also heard rumors with the Grizzlies and Sacramento (the Celtics most likely trade partner given the deals we made at the deadline this season). Ray Allen is a very good player who fills a limited role with the Celtics. His value is probably greater as an expiring contract and big name than he is as a 4th option on the Celtics. And realistically Ray Allen represents the Celtics best or second best trading chip of the next 3-4 seasons. He's the one chip that could help extend the Celtics window of contention past the next two seasons. Ainge would be a fool not to assess his value and all the potential targets in trade.

[Zin5]

Ainge will move up in this draft without trading ray or rondo.

Not hard to move up when your first pick is at 58, so you very well could be right.

[Zin5]

Also, I said this in another thread, but I actually am starting to like the idea of trading for the 4th and 5th picks with Rondo and Ray Allen. It hurts our chances for the title next year, a lot, but we can come back strong in 2011.

Ray/Pruitt for #5 (Tyreke Evans)/Haywood/James/filler
Rondo/S&T Baby for #4 (Rubio, if he falls)/Thompson/filler (Thomas for the expiring or Nocioni to fill a role)

Re-sign Marbury and we look like this:

Marbury/Rubio/James
Evans/Allen/House/Giddens
Pierce/(Nocioni)/Walker
KG/Thompson/Scal/(Thomas)
Perkins/Haywood

The main reason this would help us is cap space for 2010. A huge reason why we won is 2008 is because Rondo was on a cost controlled rookie salary. In this case, we'd have three players playing big roles on their rookie contracts until 2012 (Thompson) and 2013 (Evans, Rubio), meaning we'd have that extra flexibility in the free agent markets of 2010 and 2011. We would have a large number of expirings for 2010: Marbury, Allen, House, Thomas, Scal, Haywood, and James; which assuming we don't re-sign any of them, I believe that gives us space to sign a max free agent or close to it in 2010. All the players we'd be giving up are less crucial to the team than Ray, who it would actually hurt us to give up and we wouldn't have to give Rondo his money in 2010 either. We also get younger, with a core of Rubio, Evans, 2010 free agent, Thompson, and Perk going forward.

You also have to ask what Rondo and Ray could contribute in two years. Yeah, Rondo's great in this system, but he still has some obvious weaknesses that hurt us. Ray's coming off a great year, but there's no telling if he's on his last legs or not. Rubio has more potential than Rondo and in 2011 could help the team to a championship like Rondo did as a sophomore point guard.

[humblebum]

Too much roster turnover though. The Celtics still want to contend for the title next season. Leveraging Rondo into a Thompson or Hawes plus the #4 is one thing... if Ainge doesn't like Rondo's chances of developing a consistent mid-range and free throw shot. But it's another thing to trade Rondo AND Ray for a bunch of rookies and role players. It just leaves too much room for error.

[cfan79]

I think the C's can still win a title without Ray. Sure he was our best player during the season, but he was nonexistent in the playoffs. If we had anything from our shooting guard position we could have won the title.

[ParticleMan]

Ask the Bulls if Ray was nonexistent.

I don't think we can trade Ray. Not this year. Rondo, maybe, depending on who we get back.

[cfan79]

Ask the Bulls if Ray was nonexistent.

I don't think we can trade Ray. Not this year. Rondo, maybe, depending on who we get back.

Yep, I'll give you that one. He was great in many of the Bulls games, but he was awful in the Orlando series. He might have been tired or injured though.

Orlando games

game 1---2 out of 12
game 3---3 out of 13
game 5---3 out of 11
game 6---2 out of 11

[Celts17Pride]

Trading Ray Allen and not getting another all-star in return means the Celtics are not seriously interested in winning another championship any time soon.

I don't care what rookie the Celtics get, by the time the rookie is really good Pierce and KG will be done. Remember when Oden was a can't miss cross between Russell & Wilt?

The Celtics trading Ray Allen for a rookie means their days as serious contenders are over.

[Zin5]

Too much roster turnover though. The Celtics still want to contend for the title next season. Leveraging Rondo into a Thompson or Hawes plus the #4 is one thing... if Ainge doesn't like Rondo's chances of developing a consistent mid-range and free throw shot. But it's another thing to trade Rondo AND Ray for a bunch of rookies and role players. It just leaves too much room for error.

Trading Big Al, Gomes, Green, the 5th pick, and others for what left us with only three legitimate starting quality players seemed like a complete overhaul of the roster too.

I don't know if I'm advocating the moves, maybe there's something better out there for us now (Ray/Rondo for CP3 and a bad contract or two is my ideal scenario), but this is our last offseason to make a major move to set up this window and the future. Personally, I'm mostly fond of what I mentioned earlier because of a possible 2010 or 2011 pickup.

[BRUNiNHO91]

Trading Ray Allen and not getting another all-star in return means the Celtics are not seriously interested in winning another championship any time soon.

I don't care what rookie the Celtics get, by the time the rookie is really good Pierce and KG will be done. Remember when Oden was a can't miss cross between Russell & Wilt?

The Celtics trading Ray Allen for a rookie means their days as serious contenders are over.

Money post. Not only will we get weaker for next year, but we will also make Pierce and KG pretty mad. That's why I think if Boston trades somebody this year, it won't be Ray..it will be Rondo. If we trade Rondo for the 4th pick and draft Rubio we don't lose MUCH IMO. Danny isn't in love with Rondo anyways..and I could see rondo asking for alot of loot when we try and re sign him..the kid is one cocky ass ****..lol
IMO.. We need to go out of our way to try and win with the big three..if we lose Ray's contract, we got Paul's and KG's coming up the years after that don't we??...So yeah..no need to toss everything up in the air just yet..unless it's for something that will impact the team this upcoming year and the years after that...

[s1ickd]

it isn't accurate to say that ray doesn't play well against good teams. he played great against LA and Detroit last year in the ECF and finals.

he doesn't play well when he gets tight coverage from a quick defensive 2 gaurd (c. lee)

[CelticFaninLBC]

Trading Ray Allen and not getting another all-star in return means the Celtics are not seriously interested in winning another championship any time soon.

I don't care what rookie the Celtics get, by the time the rookie is really good Pierce and KG will be done. Remember when Oden was a can't miss cross between Russell & Wilt?

The Celtics trading Ray Allen for a rookie means their days as serious contenders are over.

Agree that's another reason why there won't be a Allen for top 5 pick deal..

[Havlicek17]

I completely understand why Ray is being discussed as trade bait for all kinds of deals this offseason. He's 33 yrs old, and he has a very large expiring salary. Enough to get an allstar in return. But Ray has played extremely well for us. He's not the player he used to be going to the hoop, but he is an integral part of this team's chemistry because of his complementary role to PP's game, and how he is able to spread the floor for PP, the bigs, and Rondo going to the hoop. He's also an allstar and a veteran who I trust with the ball in his hands late in games. He's money frome the free throw line and has won a lot of close games for us. Not a lot of guys I would say that about in the NBA.

In addition, here's why I am convinced a Ray trade is not going to happen:

1.) If healthy, we are a championship team. You don't pull a Jerry Reinsdufus and pre-emtively blow up a championship caliber team. Look how effective Chicago's transition has been. I believe we would be kicking LA's ARS right now if KG was healthy.

2.) Ray's contract expires at exactly the right time to resign both he and Rondo and stay in the same salary range as a team. Most of the trade scenario's I have read about have us picking up longer term contacts than Ray's and if you do that, you essentially add $8 to $10 Mil in salary (difference between Ray's 09/10 salary and the $8 Mil to $10 Mil he would likely resign for in 10/11) times two ($16 Mil to $20 Mil) because of the luxury tax. We are not the Knicks.

3.) Ray wants to stay a Celtic. His wife has been vocal about staying in Boston because of their son's diabetes and the excellent care they are able to get for him in Boston. In 2010, when everyone is wheeling and dealing, the Celtics will not be in a psoition to play because even if they let everyone currently on the roster that can expire, expire, we wouldn't be so far under the cap to be able to land a Wade, Bosch, or LBJ or most of the best FA's. They should be able to resign Ray, and a bird in the hand is better than Larry Bird ain't walking through that door.

The only way Ray gets traded is if we trade Rondo too. Then we would still have the same salary numbers. I for one don't see us trading 2/5ths of our starting rotation.

Doc and Danny have both said that they are looking for some length off the bench, and a backup 3 and 1.

[BRUNiNHO91]

^^ That's word...