Top 10 List: Upgrading the Wizards

[ecuhus1981]

OK, Wizards fans, for the record, as a Nets and Mavericks fan, I am a (mostly) objective observer.

From what I can gather, Grunfeld's Priority #1 is upgrading your lineup, most likely at the SG position. The FO's #2 is getting below the luxury tax, but not at the expense of #1. I have experimented on the Trades and Transactions board with various degrees of both, with lackluster results. So, I thought I'd go straight to the source, and see what WAS fans are interested in doing.

First, let's establish the Wizards' trade assets, in terms of raw value:

the #5 pick
Andray Blatche
Nick Young
Oleksiy Pecherov
Etan Thomas
Mike James
Deshawn Stevenson
Darius Songaila

Fair? Now let's be clear: I am NOT saying that ALL of these pieces would be needed in order to ugrade AND trim payroll. I think it's safe to assume that these are all "on the table", though.

The biggest piece of information I would like to draw from Washington fans is exactly who they want. Here is a list of players I think they should want, and I want you to arrange them in terms of who you like best, and give some reasoning, if you don't mind:

Manu Ginobili
Mike Miller
Jason Terry
Vince Carter
Ben Gordon
Richard Hamilton
Ron Artest
Michael Redd
Jamal Crawford
Corey Maggette

As you can tell, my list consists mainly of SGs. If you have other positions to upgrade, please explain how you would move the current starter, or if you would keep him.

[LyricalRico]

^ You're probably going to get a lot of folks who say that we should use the #5 to go after a stud big man. But Toronto has already said they want to try one more year with Bosh and nobody knows where the Amare situation stands. So a number of us have realized that it's very possible that the choices of veterans that can be had with the #5 are perimeter players. I'd rank your list this way:

Guys I'd be willing to give up the #5 for.

Manu Ginobili
Vince Carter
Richard Hamilton

Guys I'd be willing to trade other assets for:

MIke Miller
Jamal Crawford
Michael Redd

Guys I'm not interested in at all:

Jason Terry
Ben Gordon
Ron Artest
Corey Maggette

[20MexicanosIn1Van]

I am curious why you wouldn't want Ron Artest.

Although he's not the perimeter defender he used to be, he's still a good defender. He didn't shoot too high of a percentage this season, but you have to remember he was the second option (or first option when Yao Ming was down) for the whole season. On this team he'd be the third or fourth option depending who is on the floor. I think he would immediately add toughness and a defensive mindset to this team at a relatively low price.

Although with Ron, you're always wondering when he'll go crazy. But I honestly believe he has matured since his times in Indiana.

[LyricalRico]

I am curious why you wouldn't want Ron Artest.

<snip>

Although with Ron, you're always wondering when he'll go crazy. But I honestly believe he has matured since his times in Indiana.

A couple reasons. First, although he hasn't done anything crazy lately, I don't want to commit to Artest longterm. This will be his last chance for a nice sized contract and I don't want to be on the hook if he decides to lose it.

He also had some consistency and chemistry problems in Houston. He ended up being a bench player and would get 20 one night and 8 the next. I think he'd have the same problems here. He's clearly the 4th option at best on this team and he plays the same position as Butler.

[yungal07]

Why would you be willing to give up a pick for Carter or Hamilton? 30+ year old declining guards do not merit a lotto pick. Especially in Carter's case, where they gave up crap to get him.

That would be such a Wes-inspired move, and I would boycott the team if they traded the pick for either Carter or Hamilton.

[BigA]

<snip>
First, let's establish the Wizards' trade assets, in terms of raw value:
<snip>

You listed the assets most likely to be available, but if you're approaching it comprehensively I'd include Butler as the number one trade asset. Probably Haywood, Jamison, and Gil should be in there as well, although the difference between external perceived value and internal perceived value means they are unlikely to be traded at this point, Gil in particular.

[Ced67]

Why would you be willing to give up a pick for Carter or Hamilton? 30+ year old declining guards do not merit a lotto pick. Especially in Carter's case, where they gave up crap to get him.

That would be such a Wes-inspired move, and I would boycott the team if they traded the pick for either Carter or Hamilton.

The front office was apparently willing to give up #5 for Ginobli, what exactly are you expecting to get for the pick? Unless you give up Caron too, you're not gonna get anything that's gonna drastically change the lineup. At best I see either Mike Miller, Vince Carter or Hamilton. Nothing more. You're not gonna get an all star for the #5 pick in a weaker draft. The last times the pick was traded it netted a 28 year old Antawn Jamison who had just come off of a stint as a reserve and a 32 year old Ray Allen so I think its a pretty fair trade to get Carter or Hamilton. And the other 2 where in much better drafts. The chances you get an starter who can be a significant upgrade who's in their prime is slim to none. I would personally rather they keep the pick and take Harden if he's available but seeing as though they are in win now mode with Jamison being 33, it seems like they would trade the pick for help now.

[Dat2U]

Why would you be willing to give up a pick for Carter or Hamilton? 30+ year old declining guards do not merit a lotto pick. Especially in Carter's case, where they gave up crap to get him.

That would be such a Wes-inspired move, and I would boycott the team if they traded the pick for either Carter or Hamilton.

The front office was apparently willing to give up #5 for Ginobli, what exactly are you expecting to get for the pick? Unless you give up Caron too, you're not gonna get anything that's gonna drastically change the lineup. At best I see either Mike Miller, Vince Carter or Hamilton. Nothing more. You're not gonna get an all star for the #5 pick in a weaker draft. The last times the pick was traded it netted a 28 year old Antawn Jamison who had just come off of a stint as a reserve and a 32 year old Ray Allen so I think its a pretty fair trade to get Carter or Hamilton. And the other 2 where in much better drafts. The chances you get an starter who can be a significant upgrade who's in their prime is slim to none. I would personally rather they keep the pick and take Harden if he's available but seeing as though they are in win now mode with Jamison being 33, it seems like they would trade the pick for help now.

I'm with yungal on this. The front office may be willing to give up the #5 for Ginobili that doesn't mean I agree with it or think its right. If we can't get an all-star for the pick does that mean we should settle for mediocrity? IMO, no. Draft the best available talent and hold on to our resources and assets until the 'right player' comes available. Doing anything else is simply making a trade to say you've made a trade.

You mention that VC, Mike Miller or Rip are the best available on the trade market. If that's so, then why not wait up until the trade deadline to make a move? Why must it be done now when the pickings are so slim? Even if you agree with the front office that we have to win now, it doesn't mean a trade needs to take place within the next two weeks. Ray Allen may have been enough for Boston but their situation is totally different from ours. We may want the reminisce on how great the Jamison trade was for us but it still never got us a 2nd round postseason win and the Wizards collective record since the trade happened is still below .500.

Lets look at it a different way, I'm not totally against acquiring the likes of Rip, VC or Mike Miller. My problem is the price. Anything but the #5 or Blatche. Giving up Young or/and a future pick & an expiring, that's more acceptable in my view. Let's retain our key assets to add that final piece to the puzzle instead of putting everything on one move. Boston didn't win a championship with just acquiring Ray Allen, they needed to make that 2nd trade as well. That's where we are, we are not just one trade away, were two away from being a legit contender IMO.

[Ced67]

Why would you be willing to give up a pick for Carter or Hamilton? 30+ year old declining guards do not merit a lotto pick. Especially in Carter's case, where they gave up crap to get him.

That would be such a Wes-inspired move, and I would boycott the team if they traded the pick for either Carter or Hamilton.

The front office was apparently willing to give up #5 for Ginobli, what exactly are you expecting to get for the pick? Unless you give up Caron too, you're not gonna get anything that's gonna drastically change the lineup. At best I see either Mike Miller, Vince Carter or Hamilton. Nothing more. You're not gonna get an all star for the #5 pick in a weaker draft. The last times the pick was traded it netted a 28 year old Antawn Jamison who had just come off of a stint as a reserve and a 32 year old Ray Allen so I think its a pretty fair trade to get Carter or Hamilton. And the other 2 where in much better drafts. The chances you get an starter who can be a significant upgrade who's in their prime is slim to none. I would personally rather they keep the pick and take Harden if he's available but seeing as though they are in win now mode with Jamison being 33, it seems like they would trade the pick for help now.

I'm with yungal on this. The front office may be willing to give up the #5 for Ginobili that doesn't mean I agree with it or think its right. If we can't get an all-star for the pick does that mean we should settle for mediocrity? IMO, no. Draft the best available talent and hold on to our resources and assets until the 'right player' comes available. Doing anything else is simply making a trade to say you've made a trade.

You mention that VC, Mike Miller or Rip are the best available on the trade market. If that's so, then why not wait up until the trade deadline to make a move? Why must it be done now when the pickings are so slim? Even if you agree with the front office that we have to win now, it doesn't mean a trade needs to take place within the next two weeks. Ray Allen may have been enough for Boston but their situation is totally different from ours. We may want the reminisce on how great the Jamison trade was for us but it still never got us a 2nd round postseason win and the Wizards collective record since the trade happened is still below .500.

Lets look at it a different way, I'm not totally against acquiring the likes of Rip, VC or Mike Miller. My problem is the price. Anything but the #5 or Blatche. Giving up Young or/and a future pick & an expiring, that's more acceptable in my view. Let's retain our key assets to add that final piece to the puzzle instead of putting everything on one move. Boston didn't win a championship with just acquiring Ray Allen, they needed to make that 2nd trade as well. That's where we are, we are not just one trade away, were two away from being a legit contender IMO.

Dat, Late in my post I said that I was for keeping the pick and taking Harden, my main thought in the post was that if we traded the pick we probably aren't going to do much better than Mike Miller, Rip or VC. But Id personally rather keep the pick and take Harden if he was there. But as much as I want Harden, I think the FO is deadset on moving this pick to win now, and if thats the case we should probably get ready for an aging star past their prime because thats all we're gonna get.

[Dat2U]

I hear ya Ced. Well its my opinion that if that's the case, then the front office is completely shortsighted. But I don't necessarily think that's its a 100% sure bet they'll trade the pick. Nothing is 100%. Even I gotta give the Wizards more credit than that. If Grunfeld doesn't find a deal to his liking I doubt he's going to take less than what he wants b/c its the only thing out there. There's nothing written that says the Wizards must trade the pick now! And there's nothing wrong with drafting an asset now and possibly making a trade abit later down the road whether its this offseason or closer to the trade deadline.

With that said, here's my suggestion of our blue print for following what Boston did and contending for a Ring as mentioned in my previous post:

Trade 1 Assets: Use to acquire an upgrade at SG

Nick Young
Future 1st round pick
Expiring contract (James or Thomas)

Trade 2 Assets: Use to acquire a big man, someone that can push Jamison to 6th man status.

5th pick (or whoever we draft)
Andray Blatche (or Javale McGee - but only for an absolute stud)
Expiring contract (James or Thomas)
Filler (Critt and/or Pech)

[Ced67]

I hear ya Ced. Well its my opinion that if that's the case, then the front office is completely shortsighted. But I don't necessarily think that's its a 100% sure bet they'll trade the pick. Nothing is 100%. Even I gotta give the Wizards more credit than that. If Grunfeld doesn't find a deal to his liking I doubt he's going to take less than what he wants b/c its the only thing out there. There's nothing written that says the Wizards must trade the pick now! And there's nothing wrong with drafting an asset now and possibly making a trade abit later down the road whether its this offseason or closer to the trade deadline.

With that said, here's my suggestion of our blue print for following what Boston did and contending for a Ring as mentioned in my previous post:

Trade 1 Assets: Use to acquire an upgrade at SG

Nick Young
Future 1st round pick
Expiring contract (James or Thomas)

Trade 2 Assets: Use to acquire a big man, someone that can push Jamison to 6th man status.

5th pick (or whoever we draft)
Andray Blatche (or Javale McGee - but only for an absolute stud)
Expiring contract (James or Thomas)
Filler (Critt and/or Pech)

Hopefully this is the case. I agree that making a move like this would be extremely short sighted. After I saw the "rumor" about Ginobli the first thing I thought was Redskins. I like him but he'd only be here with this core for 2 years tops and that's only if he resigns, after that I have no clue what the future will be.

[Ruzious]

OK, Wizards fans, for the record, as a Nets and Mavericks fan, I am a (mostly) objective observer.

From what I can gather, Grunfeld's Priority #1 is upgrading your lineup, most likely at the SG position. The FO's #2 is getting below the luxury tax, but not at the expense of #1. I have experimented on the Trades and Transactions board with various degrees of both, with lackluster results. So, I thought I'd go straight to the source, and see what WAS fans are interested in doing.

First, let's establish the Wizards' trade assets, in terms of raw value:

the #5 pick
Andray Blatche
Nick Young
Oleksiy Pecherov
Etan Thomas
Mike James
Deshawn Stevenson
Darius Songaila

Fair? Now let's be clear: I am NOT saying that ALL of these pieces would be needed in order to ugrade AND trim payroll. I think it's safe to assume that these are all "on the table", though.

The biggest piece of information I would like to draw from Washington fans is exactly who they want. Here is a list of players I think they should want, and I want you to arrange them in terms of who you like best, and give some reasoning, if you don't mind:

Manu Ginobili
Mike Miller
Jason Terry
Vince Carter
Ben Gordon
Richard Hamilton
Ron Artest
Michael Redd
Jamal Crawford
Corey Maggette

As you can tell, my list consists mainly of SGs. If you have other positions to upgrade, please explain how you would move the current starter, or if you would keep him.

Good effort on a way to organize thoughts of what to do. I just don't like most of the top 10 targets. Ginobili is not an option - it was a false rumor, and - if he's healthy, does it make sense for SA to trade him? Of course not. Miller could make sense due to likely having a low price tag. The others... I'd have lottle to no interest in acquiring. My list of targets would be:

Amare (I'm not including Bosh, because I don't think he's available)
Speights
Joe Johnson
Horford
Rudy Fernandez
Maxiel
Conley
Mike Miller
Yi
Salmons

[mhd]

I think a prudent move would be to trade Jamison for an upgrade at SG and promote Blatche to PF. Sure, we'll lose some scoring, but Blatche will be a much better defender, and his confidence will rise knowing its his job now.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm with yungal on this. The front office may be willing to give up the #5 for Ginobili that doesn't mean I agree with it or think its right. If we can't get an all-star for the pick does that mean we should settle for mediocrity? IMO, no. Draft the best available talent and hold on to our resources and assets until the 'right player' comes available. Doing anything else is simply making a trade to say you've made a trade.

You mention that VC, Mike Miller or Rip are the best available on the trade market. If that's so, then why not wait up until the trade deadline to make a move? Why must it be done now when the pickings are so slim? Even if you agree with the front office that we have to win now, it doesn't mean a trade needs to take place within the next two weeks. Ray Allen may have been enough for Boston but their situation is totally different from ours. We may want the reminisce on how great the Jamison trade was for us but it still never got us a 2nd round postseason win and the Wizards collective record since the trade happened is still below .500.

Lets look at it a different way, I'm not totally against acquiring the likes of Rip, VC or Mike Miller. My problem is the price. Anything but the #5 or Blatche. Giving up Young or/and a future pick & an expiring, that's more acceptable in my view. Let's retain our key assets to add that final piece to the puzzle instead of putting everything on one move. Boston didn't win a championship with just acquiring Ray Allen, they needed to make that 2nd trade as well. That's where we are, we are not just one trade away, were two away from being a legit contender IMO.

I'm with Dat on this one. Preferably, the Wizards keep the 5 and otherwise upgrade. Draft and keep Curry, Harden, or Evans (DCZ I've come around); or, perhaps, swap the pick for Carter or Hughes along with a later pick that could get a stud big man, Blair.

I could live with Young, Songaila, James or Thomas, plus the #5 for Carter plus the #12 (Blair).

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think a prudent move would be to trade Jamison for an upgrade at SG and promote Blatche to PF. Sure, we'll lose some scoring, but Blatche will be a much better defender, and his confidence will rise knowing its his job now.

Best-cases would probably be a deal of Jamison plus a future pick for Ginobili; or, Jamison for Carter in some three-way scenario.

[LyricalRico]

I think a prudent move would be to trade Jamison for an upgrade at SG and promote Blatche to PF. Sure, we'll lose some scoring, but Blatche will be a much better defender, and his confidence will rise knowing its his job now.

Best-cases would probably be a deal of Jamison plus a future pick for Ginobili; or, Jamison for Carter in some three-way scenario.

Well, if I'm right about Phoenix wanting to avoid salary beyond 2010 in any Shaq/Amare deal, we're probably looking at having to deal Jamison to improve our SG situation. If we did something like #5+Blatche+expirings for Amare, we'd either have to convince Jamison to be a 6th man or move him. The problem then becomes what if Amare has chronic eye problems or leaves in 2010? We may want to keep Jamison for another year just in case.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think a prudent move would be to trade Jamison for an upgrade at SG and promote Blatche to PF. Sure, we'll lose some scoring, but Blatche will be a much better defender, and his confidence will rise knowing its his job now.

Best-cases would probably be a deal of Jamison plus a future pick for Ginobili; or, Jamison for Carter in some three-way scenario.

Well, if I'm right about Phoenix wanting to avoid salary beyond 2010 in any Shaq/Amare deal, we're probably looking at having to deal Jamison to improve our SG situation. If we did something like #5+Blatche+expirings for Amare, we'd either have to convince Jamison to be a 6th man or move him. The problem then becomes what if Amare has chronic eye problems or leaves in 2010? We may want to keep Jamison for another year just in case.

I'm not that crazy about getting Stoudemire.

[verbal8]

Best-cases would probably be a deal of Jamison plus a future pick for Ginobili; or, Jamison for Carter in some three-way scenario.

I could see Jamison going to the Spurs in a Ginobili trade. However I think the Wizards are keeping Jamison and going completely into "win-now" mode if they get Carter.

[barelyawake]

I'm not that crazy about getting Stoudemire.

Exactly. I don't get why a 20-10 player who needs plays run from him is better than a 20-10 player who doesn't. Because one slams the ball for his points? I suppose the only thing people see here is that Amare's defense is a tick better than AJ's, and that Amare can draw double teams. I'm not sure that's the difference maker.

Bosh
Healthy Brand
Hinrich
Okafor
Diaw
Bell
Bowen
Prince
Ginobili
Rip

Runner-ups: McDyess, Rash Wallace, Kurt Thomas, AK, Rudy, Splitter, Terry and anyone I missed that has ever gotten three or more votes for the All-Defensive team. I really wanted JO before he got traded.

I would honestly like for someone to explain to me the Mike Miller thing. Not attacking. Simply asking why people settled on that guy as someone who could help us. I mean, explain to me on the defensive end what you envision happening.

[Ruzious]

I'm not that crazy about getting Stoudemire.

Exactly. I don't get why a 20-10 player who needs plays run from him is better than a 20-10 player who doesn't. Because one slams the ball for his points? I suppose the only thing people see here is that Amare's defense is a tick better than AJ's, and that Amare can draw double teams. I'm not sure that's the difference maker.

That's exactly why. Bigs who command a double team give you a HUGE advantage - that's why Elvin Hayes was so valuable to the Bullets. Also, I don't buy what so many sell as his defensive short-comings. He's defended Duncan about as well as anyone I've seen. Then again, so has Kwame Brown, but KB's just a bit lacking offensively.