Extension ? ... Larry's article

bgwizarfan · Post #1 » by **bgwizarfan** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:30 pm

Had a quick question about Larry's article:

"Please tell me we don't have to worry about the Over-36 rule if he signs an extension...

No such luck. The Over-36 rule applies to extensions as well.

Fortunately, if he signs his extension by June 30 he can only add on another three years, which will be up before he turns 36. So an extension signed now won't be affected by the Over-36 rule.

But if he waits until after July 1 and extends his contract by four years, the last season will commence after he turns 36. So he can't make more in a four year extension than he would make in a three year extension.

The net effect is that he would sign a three year extension, whether he does it this summer or next."

My question is with the 3rd paragraph of the answer. Is Kobe allowed to extend the contract by 4 years come July 1st? My thoughts were that would be illegal since technically he'd have 6 total years. Or does the CBA not count the current year (09-10) as a year.

If he wants to sign an extension that lasts until 2015, wouldn't he have to wait until after the 2009-2010 regular season to do so? or could he do it come July 1st, 2009

Dunkenstein · Post #2 » by **Dunkenstein** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:07 pm

bgwizarfan wrote:My question is with the 3rd paragraph of the answer. Is Kobe allowed to extend the contract by 4 years come July 1st? My thoughts were that would be illegal since technically he'd have 6 total years. Or does the CBA not count the current year (09-10) as a year.

If Kobe signed a four year extension after July 1 he would run afoul of the over-36 rule. And yes, the CBA does count the current year as a year when determining the length of the extension.

If he wants to sign an extension that lasts until 2015, wouldn't he have to wait until after the 2009-2010 regular season to do so? or could he do it come July 1st, 2009

In either case he would run afoul of the over-36 rule.

bgwizarfan · Post #3 » by **bgwizarfan** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:50 am

right but if that's the case, then I'm saying he can't sign a 4 year extension this july... because then it would be a total of 6 seasons including the 2009-2010 season. my question is lets say he wants the 4 year extension (which would be to 2014-2015, the 1st year the over 36 kicks in). When's the earliest he could sign that as an extension (and not a new contract).

The way I understand it, since 2009-2010 would count, then he could only sign a total of 3 years past the end of his current contract, which means the overr 36 rule wouldnt come into effect.

So can he sign that extension now? Or does he have to wait until the end of the 09-10 regular season, or the 10-11 playoffs.

Here's a concrete example. Antawn Jamison last year on June 30th, signed a 4 year extension to his previous contract. Would the Wizards have been able to offer a 5th year on the extension even if they wanted to? Or since the extension took place during the 2007-2008 salary cap year still, 07-08 counted as 1 of the first 5 years. That's what I'm unclear about

Dunkenstein · Post #4 » by **Dunkenstein** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:51 am

bgwizarfan wrote:right but if that's the case, then I'm saying he can't sign a 4 year extension this july... because then it would be a total of 6 seasons including the 2009-2010 season. my question is lets say he wants the 4 year extension (which would be to 2014-2015, the 1st year the over 36 kicks in). When's the earliest he could sign that as an extension (and not a new contract).

Never.

Why are you so hung up on a four year extension? Neither he nor his agent are foolish enough to ask for an extension that will take his contract into 14-15.

FGump · Post #5 » by **FGump** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:54 am

If he wanted, couldn't he at any time (including now) decline his final (option) year and then sign a 4-year extension?

Dunkenstein · Post #6 » by **Dunkenstein** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:06 am

FGump wrote:If he wanted, couldn't he at any time (including now) decline his final (option) year and then sign a 4-year extension?

I was responding to bgwizarfan's question about signing a "4 year extension (which would be to 2014-2015, the 1st year the over 36 kicks in)". But your scenario would work if for some reason Kobe was determined to sign a four-year extension, rather than opting out this summer and signing a new five-year deal (which Larry indicates would be more lucrative for Kobe than signing an extension).

bgwizarfan · Post #7 » by **bgwizarfan** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:53 am

i'm hung up on the rule, not the particular kobe situation. So if Kobe did want to sign a 4 year extension that lasts until 2014-2015, he'd have to wait until July 1, 2010 to do so... any extension signed during the '09-'10 season would NOT trigger the over 36 rule, and that one portion in Larry article made me thought it would.

Lastly, because I'm interested, any thoughts on the Jamison example I gave? Would the wizards have been able to add another year (i.e. a team option year or an almost completely non-guaranteed year if they wanted), or since he was technically still signed during the 07-08 Salary Cap Year (June 30th), they could only give 4 years... and this type of situation could actually come into play in the future too so I think its relevant

FGump · Post #8 » by **FGump** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:23 pm

bgwizarfan wrote:i'm hung up on the rule, not the particular kobe situation. So if Kobe did want to sign a 4 year extension that lasts until 2014-2015, he'd have to wait until July 1, 2010 to do so... any extension signed during the '09-'10 season would NOT trigger the over 36 rule, and that one portion in Larry article made me thought it would.

If he used his right to erase the option for the 2010-11 season, Kobe could sign a 4 year extension now. That deal would end in June 2014.

"any extension signed during the '09-'10 season would NOT trigger the over 36 rule" - that's not an accurate statement. After July 1 2009 Kobe could hypothetically keep his 2010-11 year on the books and sign a 4 year extension, which would end in June 2015 and would have over-36 issues.

The rule of thumb is that, including the current season, you can only have a total of 6 years on your deal.

bgwizarfan · Post #9 » by **bgwizarfan** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:43 pm

thanks... my initial understanding was that it was only 6 years for players whose rookie scale contracts were extended and i thought all others were 5, but that clears that up

bgwizarfan · Post #10 » by **bgwizarfan** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:41 pm

"Section 1. Maximum Term.
Except where a shorter term is expressly provided for elsewhere in this Agreement, a Player Contract entered into after the date of this Agreement may cover, in the aggregate, up to but no more than five (5) Seasons (including any Season covered by an Option) from the date such Contract is signed; provided, however, that (a) a Player Contract between a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent and his Prior Team may cover, in the aggregate, up to but no more than six (6) Seasons (including any Season covered by an Option) from the date such Contract is signed, and (b) an Extension of a Rookie Scale Contract may cover, in the aggregate, up to but no more than six (6) Seasons (including any Season covered by an Option) from the date such extension is signed.

Section 2. Computation of Time.
For purposes of Section 1 above, if a Player Contract or Extension is signed after the beginning of a Season, the Season in which the Contract or Extension is signed shall be counted as one (1) full Season covered by the Contract or Extension."

Gump, I'm starting to think the 6 year thing for extensions is incorrect. It seems like the 6 years only applies to Rookie Scale Extensions, since the CBA specifically pointed that out above. So even if Kobe or anyone wanted to sign a 4 year extension that lasted until 2014-2015, he would NOT be able to do it, since it lasts more than 5 total years. From what I can tell he'd have to wait until after the 2009-2010 season ended, which would be immediately after the 2009-2010 NBA Finals ended.

With regard to my Jamison question, though, since the NBA uses SEASON and not SALARY CAP YEAR in the situation above, I think Jamison would have been able to sign a 5 year extension back on June 30th, 2008, since it wasn't part of the 2007-2008 season

Dunkenstein · Post #11 » by **Dunkenstein** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:51 pm

bg,
read the paragraph more closely.

"a Player Contract between a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent and his Prior Team may cover, in the aggregate, up to but no more than six (6) Seasons (including any Season covered by an Option) from the date such Contract is signed".

The same holds true for extensions. Extensions can be for six years (including any years remaining on the existing contract) because by their very nature they are an agreement between a player and his prior team.

What your not taking into consideration with your Jamison questions is his age. Jamison was born on 6/12/76. He was 32 when he signed his extension on 6/30/08.

If you read Larry's #49 it states "For the case of a 32-year-old Qualifying Veteran Free Agent who re-signs to a four-year contract, it is possible the league will grant some leeway. This is because they specifically excluded 33- and 34-year-olds with four-year contracts from being classified as Over 36, but they missed this peculiarity with 32-year-olds. Again, at worst the player can avoid this situation by waiting until after his birthday to sign his contract."

I'm only surmising on this, but Jamison and Washington may have used this loophole to avoid the over-36 rule. If he had tried to sign a five-year extension, he would have been 37 in the last year of the contract.

bgwizarfan · Post #12 » by **bgwizarfan** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:25 pm

okay. I think i was confused since the CBA specifically brings up the Rookie Scale Extension. Why bring that up as a seperate example if the rule holds true for all extensions? But thanks for that.

I disagree with you on the Jamison case, though. Jamison's 4 year deal would only have fitted into that loophole if he turned 33 between the end of the July moratorium and October 1, 2008 (and assuming he signed his contract while he was 32, which he did). Since he turned 32 in August, his 4 year deal isn't affected at all by the Over 36 rule, since his last year begins while he is 35.

Unless I'm not understanding what you're saying. I thought you were saying that the Wizards were granted leeway since he was 32 and signed the contract. But it would only apply anyway if he signed when he was 32 and turned 33 before october 1st. anyway if you weren't saying that, disregard my 2nd paragraph

Dunkenstein · Post #13 » by **Dunkenstein** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:56 pm

Regardless of whether they used the loophole or not in signing him, he couldn't sign a five year extension because he would have been 37 in the fifth year.

Modern_epic · Post #14 » by **Modern_epic** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:24 pm

bgwizarfan, I am just guessing, but I would think the reason they bring up extensions on a rookie scale deal separately is because there are some different rules for those extension than for veteran contract extensions, so they wouldn't be covered under that clause.