Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota

[spaceman_E]

I thought I was going to get to bed early tonight after coming home from the Nationals game exhausted and then I find the trade and 19 pages of thread for me to read. First opinions don't really mean that much, especially if you consider the recent history of this board. Javale Mcgee has gone from no.1 reason to become a Grizzlies fan into no.1 big man prospect in all of the NBA, Deshawn Stevenson has gone from the worst league minimum signing ever, into a decent stopgap 2 at a good price, into he's overpriced but ok if healthy. So really, we won't know how good this deal is for us until a year or two down the road.
What we do know...
1) We are a much better 3pt shooting team.
2) We are better suited to deal Caron for a stud PF (Butler, Critt, Blatche for Amare?)
3) We went from having a glaring lack of talent at G to an abundance of depth
4) We are a better overall team for THIS season

We are short up front but I imagine that will get taken care of with an inexpensive vet pretty soon. Mcdyess would be ideal for that. With all our bodies at G, I also expect us to make another smaller deal there too with Critt going out for a C of some sort. Foye played most of last season at SG, not PG so you all know. He will clearly play some of both here so I'd love to draft Collison or Mills at 32 and then deal James and Critt for a big of some sort.

Gil/Foye/Collison
D Steve(plays the least but still starts)/Miller/Foye/Young
Caron/Miller/Dmac/AJ
AJ/AB/vet
Wood/AB/Mcgee/vet

with the tight 8-man rotation being Gil, Foye, Stevenson, Caron, Miller, AJ, AB, Wood
If the Amare deal were to go down...
Gil/Foye/Collison
Stevenson/Foye/Young
Miller/Dmac/AJ
Amare/AJ/vet min
Wood/Amare/Mcgee

Or maybe even start Foye and Dmac with miller/aj as 6.5 man

Overall, it does suck about ruining draft night excitement but we are a better team now so rejoice Wiz fans. Harden wasn't going to be there at #5 and Evans will take a year or two before he can be relied upon. It's a solid B- in my book

[Doubledyll]

I don't know dude, I think the Wolves got the better deal. They have 6 picks and could deal them for anyone. Miller is garbage and so is foye.

[spaceman_E]

I know this seems unlikely but Craig Smith is the 4th string PF for Minny, is Ernie sure we couldn't add him to the deal with maybe Critt + a future 2nd heading their way? That would really help to balance our team and we would finally have an undersized PF for CCJ

[spaceman_E]

Seriously, Minnesota is to PF's as Atlanta is to SF's.
depth chart - Al Jefferson, Kevin Love, Ryan Gomes, Craig Smith, Darius Songaila, Brian Cardinal, Mark Madsen and that doesn't even include the expiring Shelden Williams. It's quite absurd tbh.

[DaRealHibachi]

Seriously, Minnesota is to PF's as Atlanta is to SF's.
depth chart - Al Jefferson, Kevin Love, Ryan Gomes, Craig Smith, Darius Songaila, Brian Cardinal, Mark Madsen and that doesn't even include the expiring Shelden Williams. It's quite absurd tbh.

Forgot Pecherov...

Anyway after sleeping a night about it.. I dunno really... We got some solid contributors for basically nothing, but all this makes me wonder what will happen to Butler... He's probably my favourite Wiz (with Gil), so I'll be very dissapointed if he leaves...

Unless we get Amar'e for him, I don't want to see him leavin...

[WizardsWorld]

LOVE the deal... I think its really good... 2 VERY useful guys for our pick in a weak draft and 3 useless bags of poo... I love it...

Next steps are to ship off DeBrick(and they can use Crittenton as incentive for someone to take DeBrick)

And sign Chris Wilcox for big man depth !!!

[lupin]

so much for not doing a salary dump...

[FreeBalling]

I can't say I'm excited about the trade, I think we are a better team.

Will we make a bigger push into the playoffs? I don't think so with our roster today. We need that low post player, maybe Blatche has become a solid player??? Could we see Abe dip into the TAX?

I've got to say I'm not real happy today about this trade.

[fishercob]

Went to bed a little before 11 and just caught up on the last 5 pages of the thread.

Dat, I want to adress your comparison to San Antonio and the Jefferson trade. Firstly, Milwaukee wouldn't have taken the package we gave up for Jefferson. Not only did they take on solely expirings, but two of the contracts weren't fully guaranteed. We just didn't have those deals to give up to create instant cap savings. Etan, by contrast, will count $8M+ against someone's cap this year and is fullly guauranteed, and he's horrible. Maybe he'd be attractive at the deadline, but not now -- not in this day and age when teams are trying to make their dollars count. Plus, RJ makes $15M -- fifteen friggin million. There would have been no practical way to add him to this team and he wouldn't have fit in as well as Miller and Foye. Miller and RJ are statistically similar players in terms of production over their careers (you'd give a slight nod to RJ) but Jefferson makes 50% more. FOye and Miller combined make less than Foye.

nate, re your Nick Young concerns, I'm just not buying it. The guy may be talented and have long arms and all that, but he's never going to play on a good team. He couldn't learn his team's basic offensive sets in two years! Saying that he has the potential to develop is like saying Javaris may grow a jump shot.

If this is our roster going into the season (with a slight tweak here and there) I think we go 53-29, ran about 3rd on offensive efficiency and 20th in D. That would be a marked improvement over the EJ era. Based on that, I think Miller re-signs (probably at less than $9+ M). If we can improve in FLip's second season, we may get a shot at a ring.

Also, I think Deshawn stays. Who else do we have that we can credibly throw at D-Wade and other dynamic scoring guards? Deshawn can defend -- or he could at least -- and we're short on defenive personnel.

I think spaceman_E had it right with his rotation. I think Miller backs up the 2 and 3 and is a 6MOY candidate:

Arneas/Foye/Critt/James
Deshawn (20 mpg)/ Miller/Foye/DMac/Young
Butler/Miller/DMac
Jamison/Blatche/DMac
Haywood/McGee/Blatche

Same starting 5 as last season with Miller, Foye, Blatche, McGee rounding out the rotation. If healthy, that's the best team we've had here in a looooooong time

[fishercob]

What numbers do you think these cats will wear with 33 and 4 taken?

Miller could go back to 50, which he wore with Orlando. he could also change to 6, which a lot of onetime 33's seem to do (like AD). I'm guessing Foye goes with 7 ot 1 once Nick is moved.

[Severn Hoos]

When I first saw the story, I was disgusted - especially since we didn't get the #18 (or even 28?) included. Looks like a salary dump, which means giving away the #5 pick to shave one year of Songaila's contract? Yeah that sounds like a good deal...

At this point, I'm still on the "against" side, but then I'm a draft geek, so I tend to think that every prospect is going to pan out, and we're giving up a definite all-star in the #5 pick. Since there's also the possibility that the #5 turns into a bust, I have to acknowledge the risk factor there.

So here's my best estimate of Ernie's thinking on this one: Sure, it makes us better this year. But we weren't going to the Finals this year anyway - new coach, new system, Gil getting back into the swing after 2 years. So whatever marginal increments are made this year are somewhat irrelevant if they guys who brought them about are gone after the season. And then we'd have to work new guys into the system. Doesn't make any sense.

So I suspect that he likes Miller and plans to retain him past this season, hopefully as an all-purpose 6th man at SG/SF. (Of course, Jamison is supposed to be an all-purpose 6th man too, but we can't seem to get anyone who will push him out of his starting role.) Hopefully MM would re-sign for a reasonable deal (MLE? $6M?), because keeping MM while losing Haywood would be really going backwards. And maybe shedding Songaila's contract gives Ernie just enough space to keep Miller & Haywood - even if they're over the tax threshold, it still saves $10M to have Songaila moved.

Even so, dealing the #5 pick for a one-way swingman off the bench doesn't seem like good value to me. And that's IF he re-signs! So they must think highly of Foye to make the deal.

My guess is - they envision the 2010-11 lineup something like this:

Arenas/backup (Critt? Collison?)
Starter*/Miller/Stevenson (if not dealt by then)
Butler/Miller/McGuire
Jamison/Blatche (or vise versa)/McGee (can he play PF?)
Haywood/McGee

* Starter = season-long competition between Nick Young & Randy Foye. Winner stays long-term (i.e., Foye gets re-signed), loser goes. If Young goes, he might help complete a package for a big-time contributor (could be done at the deadline with James?). If Foye loses out, they could let him walk or try to get something in a sign-and-trade. Basically, drawing two tickets to try and get one winner as a starting-caliber SG.

Not the worst strategy, but too contingent for my liking. It requires pretty much all of the following to be successful, IMO:

* Haywood re-signs
* Miller re-signs
* One of Foye/Young earns the starting SG role - not just gets it by default
* We get something of value for the other one

Otherwise, we'll be here in 2-3 years complaining about how Harden or Evans or Curry is an up-and-coming All-Star while we have nothing to show for the worst season in franchise history.

[closg00]

The amount of whining is ridiculous. There was only so much the guy could do with a #5 pick in a weak draft combined with a bunch of unwanted junk.

I think what most of you here are forgetting is that he just evaporated 3 bad contracts out of Washington's hands. Whether Washington will keep Miller or Foye after next season is a much better problem to have then the one we had before. That in itself is positive. Add to it that I really believe Washington is in a great position to potentially make another major deal. Preferably to help the back court which now is pretty thin. I rate the deal as an A-

Pretty great if you ask me.

Sorry, I'm about to go CCJ on everyone. Either this trade has got me real crabby or I've always been naturally crabby.

A minor point to correct with the posts above. Expiring contracts aren't "unwanted junk" or "bad contracts". They can actually prove to be very valuable in helping a team make a lopsided trade talent wise b/c another team wishes to dump long term salary.

Etan's expiring contract WAS an asset. Pech's expiring deal was a minor asset. DSong was the lone bad contract and even he had only two years left on his deal at $8 mil or so.

For example lets look at a franchise that seems to do things the right way as opposed to us.

The San Antonio Spurs on the same day acquired a solid, near all-star impact player in Richard Jefferson for nothing more tha expiring contracts. They gave up Bruce Bowen (washed up), Kurt Thomas (nearly washed up) and Fabricio Oberto (scrub). That deal was not made for talent, it was made by Milwaukee to get out of RJ's deal.

On the hand, you have the delusional Wizards front office, apparently believing all they need is depth, willingly give up a top #5 choice (valuable enough that more than 10 teams called the Wizards inquiring about the pick!) AND two expirings for Mike Miller & Randy Foye. Two decent role players that may be both suited as 6th men as opposed to starters. No one can make a legitimate claim that either is anything more than exceedingly average.

So lets look at this again. San Antonio, a team having a big three of their own that's won championship but not happy after a first round exit, acquire a 1st line player for nothing. The Wizards on the other hand, seemingly content with their big three that's won nada, sacrifice alot more to add two lesser players.

That's the difference b/w a championship caliber franchise and a organization that lives and breathes in mediocrity.

Great counter points Dat, especially the SA comparison. I am a little concerned about Foye being dumped on us, he is going back after a knee injury & this is what DX had to say about him last year.

A scoring combo guard who has yet to live up to the expectations that came with being drafted 7th overall and traded for Brandon Roy.

Again, I am waiting to see what else goes down tomorrow night, perhaps we will somehow emerge with at-least another real PF. Decent trade, but not a difference-maker given that we are even weaker in the middle now.

[WizDom]

What numbers do you think these cats will wear with 33 and 4 taken?

Miller could go back to 50, which he wore with Orlando. he could also change to 6, which a lot of onetime 33's seem to do (like AD). I'm guessing Foye goes with 7 ot 1 once Nick is moved.

Maybe miller will pick 31 to honor miller31time!

[Brenice]

Playing next to Gil and Antawn, Larry Hughes had his best seasons professionally. Caron too. DeShawn with his self-check self, turned into 50/50 when Gil was healthy. Foye is not self-check. He will have his best seasons. Miller has to be respected. The wiz will put on the floor an offense with no lose links. Let the defense choose how to play us. Maybe we double Gil, watch Caron and Antawn, and leave Foye or Miller. They'd better respect Foye and Miller. Now, respecting Foye and Miller, it will create room for Gil, Caron, Antawn, Brendan and the rest. Ouch.

Of note, not that it means anything, Foye was graded a 97 by NBADRAFT.NET. The only guard to be graded 97 in this draft is Rubio. Everybody else they graded 94 or lower.

[DCZards]

And Foye is a shrewd pick up, the kind of trade of a young, undervalued player that you'd like your GM to make. Minnesota is in flux, with a new GM, and Foye -- perhaps not quite appreciated, on the cusp of breaking out -- was ripe for the plucking. As a second option, he performed extremely well at times, but he's out of his element, at this point, in such a featured role. As a fourth option, he ought to shine.

In many ways, getting Foye is like getting a young Arenas or a young Butler -- an improving player who still flies under the radar of the average fan (his stats have gotten better every year -- he made the leap to becoming a very solid player in his third year, which is what you want to see.)

Comparisons to Nick Young are inevitable, perhaps, but Foye seems to work harder, and he's certainly a more rounded ball player. And Foye's game has shown growth.

This is where I am on this trade as well. Foye is the plum here. He probably has as much potential as anyone we were going to get with the 5th pick--with the possible exception of Evans who's going to Sac at 4. And take my word on this, he's a lot better, more well-rounded and tougher than Nick. I think we're going to see him start alongside GA.

Getting a vet like Miller as well to relieve Butler and AJ as a scorer and oncourt leader is a great plus as well.

[BigA]

Miller and Foye will make possible a range of lineup options that retain enough scoring punch so that 2 of the big 3 don't have to be on the court at the same time.

Flip won't have to play Arenas-Butler-Jamison 40+ minutes to eek out wins vs. bad teams. It should allow them to be better defensively, and if they can build a large lead they'll be less vulnerable to losing it.

[mhd]

From DA (who we all know has legit inside sources):

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/d ... index.html

This says that the Knicks offered LH+#8 for ETan+James+#5. Dallas didn't offer anything (no terry or Howard). Also says we tried to trade for Hinrich with Etan+James at the deadline, but were rebuffed.

[Ruzious]

Playing next to Gil and Antawn, Larry Hughes had his best seasons professionally. Caron too. DeShawn with his self-check self, turned into 50/50 when Gil was healthy. Foye is not self-check. He will have his best seasons. Miller has to be respected. The wiz will put on the floor an offense with no lose links. Let the defense choose how to play us. Maybe we double Gil, watch Caron and Antawn, and leave Foye or Miller. They'd better respect Foye and Miller. Now, respecting Foye and Miller, it will create room for Gil, Caron, Antawn, Brendan and the rest. Ouch.

Of note, not that it means anything, Foye was graded a 97 by NBADRAFT.NET. The only guard to be graded 97 in this draft is Rubio. Everybody else they graded 94 or lower.

Good points. It will be very interesting to see the improvements that Gil's backcourt mates show - just from playing with him. I have little doubt that will happen.

Until the trade becomes official, I'm going to wonder if it gets tweaked - as I see Foye as a trading chip.

I'm not going to judge this trade until I see what follows, because it can't stand alone as it is. If it does, then it leaves the roster very unbalanced, and it's a poor trade. But EG has been in this business too long to leave it like this, so I'm going to wait. I'm guessing we don't have to wait till past the draft to see the rest of his plan unfold.

[fishercob]

And Foye is a shrewd pick up, the kind of trade of a young, undervalued player that you'd like your GM to make. Minnesota is in flux, with a new GM, and Foye -- perhaps not quite appreciated, on the cusp of breaking out -- was ripe for the plucking. As a second option, he performed extremely well at times, but he's out of his element, at this point, in such a featured role. As a fourth option, he ought to shine.

In many ways, getting Foye is like getting a young Arenas or a young Butler -- an improving player who still flies under the radar of the average fan (his stats have gotten better every year -- he made the leap to becoming a very solid player in his third year, which is what you want to see.)

Comparisons to Nick Young are inevitable, perhaps, but Foye seems to work harder, and he's certainly a more rounded ball player. And Foye's game has shown growth.

This is where I am on this trade as well. Foye is the plum here. He probably has as much potential as anyone we were going to get with the 5th pick--with the possible exception of Evans who's going to Sac at 4. And take my word on this, he's a lot better, more well-rounded and tougher than Nick. I think we're going to see him start alongside GA.
Getting a vet like Miller as well to relieve Butler and AJ as a scorer and oncourt leader is a great plus as well.

I don't need to take your word DCZ because it's the truth. Among many other things, this trade is an indictment of Young. They brought in two guys who are going to take his minutes. Anyone who saw him as a starter or major contributor has to acknowledge that. And it's proof that at the end of the day, no matter how much talent you have, you need a mental game to play at the NBA level. Nick's struggles thinking the game are well-documented.

I agree that Foye has some bigtime potential. I posted earlier that his rookie season bore statistical similarity to the likes of Mayo, SPrewell and Hersey Hawkins. Flip clealry believs in the guy.

[NbdyBeatsTheWiz]

I thought I was going to get to bed early tonight after coming home from the Nationals game exhausted and then I find the trade and 19 pages of thread for me to read. First opinions don't really mean that much, especially if you consider the recent history of this board. Javale Mcgee has gone from no.1 reason to become a Grizzlies fan into no.1 big man prospect in all of the NBA, Deshawn Stevenson has gone from the worst league minimum signing ever, into a decent stopgap 2 at a good price, into he's overpriced but ok if healthy. So really, we won't know how good this deal is for us until a year or two down the road.
What we do know...
1) We are a much better 3pt shooting team.
2) We are better suited to deal Caron for a stud PF (Butler, Critt, Blatche for Amare?)
3) We went from having a glaring lack of talent at G to an abundance of depth
4) We are a better overall team for THIS season

We are short up front but I imagine that will get taken care of with an inexpensive vet pretty soon. Mcdyess would be ideal for that. With all our bodies at G, I also expect us to make another smaller deal there too with Critt going out for a C of some sort. Foye played most of last season at SG, not PG so you all know. He will clearly play some of both here so I'd love to draft Collison or Mills at 32 and then deal James and Critt for a big of some sort.

Gil/Foye/Collison
D Steve(plays the least but still starts)/Miller/Foye/Young
Caron/Miller/Dmac/AJ
AJ/AB/vet
Wood/AB/Mcgee/vet

with the tight 8-man rotation being Gil, Foye, Stevenson, Caron, Miller, AJ, AB, Wood
If the Amare deal were to go down...
Gil/Foye/Collison
Stevenson/Foye/Young
Miller/Dmac/AJ
Amare/AJ/vet min
Wood/Amare/Mcgee

Or maybe even start Foye and Dmac with miller/aj as 6.5 man

Overall, it does suck about ruining draft night excitement but we are a better team now so rejoice Wiz fans. Harden wasn't going to be there at #5 and Evans will take a year or two before he can be relied upon. It's a solid B- in my book

One of the better posts in here.

And I was at the Nats game too. My first MLB game. Glad the Wiz aren't THAT bad.