Pitching Injuries

[Attonitus]

Ok so in the lasy year or so Marcum, McGowan, Ryan, Accardo, Litch, Jannsen, Romero, Halladay, and Downs (I am probably missing someone) have all been injured at some point, many of them serious injuries. It has seemed like bad luck and coincidence but when do we start to question the coaching?

I know some of the injuries are completly out of Arnsberg's control like the ceramic Scott Downs injuring his toe through the ever dangerous act of breaking from the batter's box but most of the inuries have been throwing arm related.

I am just curious what other people think? coincidence or not? could it be throwing techniques, improper training/warm up, over work/under work? Cito and the trainers and doctors could also be questioned. I know Arnsberg is a well respected pitching coach and injuries are gonna happen but so many in so little time, seems crazy to me. Thoughts?

[Avenger]

Romero got injured because he sneezed too hard, Arnsberg can't exactly control that. We're not the only team experencing these injures, i believe the Pittsburgh Pirates very recently lost majority of their best pitchers to injuries. The research on pitcher injuries and the causes isn't upto date, no one really knows why pitchers have become so fragile.

[tsherkin]

And Halladay mildly strained his groan, not his throwing arm.

It's interestimg that, as Avenger noted, pitchers seem more frail than they are now. There are guys in the past who threw like 20 years. Warren Spahn threw for 21 seasons, or more importantly, over 5,200 innings. He threw over 173 and 197 innings in his last two seasons (at 43 and 44) and threw 12 complete games over that period of time.

This is a man who threw 250+ innings 16 or 17 times (and 247 innings broke that up from being a huge streak).

So what separates guys like him, and for more modern examples, Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux, from these other guys who are so comparatively frail? Ryan threw almost 5,400 innings and kept his velocity (mostly) deep into his 40s. He suffered an injury as a 46 year-old that ended his career, but prior to that, he threw 6 seasons at 250+ IP, 14 seasons with 200+ IP, 2 seasons over 325 IP and was generally in the 150-190 IP range otherwise in a 27-season career.

In 23 seasons, Maddux threw just over 5,000 innings. He threw 14 consecutive seasons over 200 innings, then 199.1 innings, then 4 more seasons over 200, throwing 198 and 194 innings in his final two seasons.

These guys are outliers to an extent because they're great pitchers, but some of that greatness comes from the durability. What made these guys more durable, less susceptible to injury? Why were older pitchers able to generally push themselves more, or is it just that we didn't hear about the ones who couldn't?

Has anyone compared average innings pitched for starting pitchers by decade, for example?

[Attonitus]

I stated that some of the injuries were not arm related I was just saying the majority are and there is no doubt we have been the hardest hit team as far as pitching injuries. Anyway...

These guys are outliers to an extent because they're great pitchers, but some of that greatness comes from the durability. What made these guys more durable, less susceptible to injury? Why were older pitchers able to generally push themselves more, or is it just that we didn't hear about the ones who couldn't?

I think it's the latter, I am sure injuries were not as revealed or doucumented as they are today, it's hard to believe pitchers are just more fragile all of a sudden. That being said, I think the babying of young pitchers actually makes them more open to injury because they havent built the necessary stamina and when they are in situations where they are required to go deeper than usual, start on less rest, or pitch more games per season they are more likely to get injured.

[Modern_epic]

Bart Given, the former Jays AGM, actually has an article on the Jays pitching injuries up on Sportsnet (and yes, I feel ashamed that I'm directing anyone to their website, but I'll get over it for Given). He says he looked at it after last season, just before he was fired, and since Arnie took over, the jays rate of pitching injuries was not significantly higher than average. That was before this season's injuries, of course, but the only arm problem the jays have added this year was Litcsh, I think.

As for why pitchers get injured more/can't pitch as much, I think people discussing this often overlook what I would guess is a major part of the answer: pitches are better these days. Not pitchers, but pitches.

To keep up with hitters on steroids using lighter bats with film telling them exactly how to fix their swing and a big detailed scouting report on who they are facing, pitchers have to throw faster pitches with nastier motion these days. Even with improved training, doing both of these things is going to lead to more wear and tear on your arm. I don't know how much a pitcher can do to strengthen their UCL or rotator cuff.

[tsherkin]

I stated that some of the injuries were not arm related I was just saying the majority are and there is no doubt we have been the hardest hit team as far as pitching injuries. Anyway...

Yeah, I know, I wasn't criticizing your post, I was leading into what I was talking about, which is great pitchers and durability.

I think it's the latter, I am sure injuries were not as revealed or doucumented as they are today, it's hard to believe pitchers are just more fragile all of a sudden. That being said, I think the babying of young pitchers actually makes them more open to injury because they havent built the necessary stamina and when they are in situations where they are required to go deeper than usual, start on less rest, or pitch more games per season they are more likely to get injured.

I agree that babying pitchers makes them inherently less durable, so I think it may be a combination of not hearing about older guys who were injured as well as our current methods making them less durable. I think Nolan Ryan is kind of proving that right now, since the Rangers haven't been experiencing any greater frequency of injury than any other team to their pitchers. There have been a couple of articles about how that's working out positively for their staff. Him and Mike Maddux are doing a pretty fine job.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Not saying this is the case obviously...but if Arnsberg really was adversely affecting these pitchers in some way but also boosting their performance above expected levels would anybody really care, anyway?

I'm pretty sure I can accept the trade-off if the pitching continues to be as good as it has since Arnsberg came here.

[s e n s i]

With Doc starting on Monday, and a day off between the Rays series and the series in NY, he can fit 3 more starts in before the ASB (all of which are against AL rivals and WC chasers). Which is fantastic, btw.

[SCF99]

i wonder what Matt Clement is doing now a days......sure he would have been pitching by now