Ariza v Artest for the Lakers

[Patterns]

He's a better player than Ariza and per minute has averaged just 3 shots more than Ariza did as a Laker during his career, despite Artest being a 2nd option most of his career. It's pretty obvious he's an upgrade and yet again this OP makes a terrible thread. Get over it, Kobe and the Lakers > your current favorite player/team.

@ this god awful post of yours to bash me. Your people's level of intelligence seems to always amaze me, probably couldn't even finish reading the entire post itself, due to the distraction of Kobe Bryant highlights volume 1 out of 10,000.

1) I never said Artest is a better player than Ariza, never did I say this.

2) I said Ariza was a better fit than Artest for the Lakers team that goes through a strict motion offensive scheme.

3) I watched Artest throughout the entire season, including the playoffs (every game), I made good posts about how he's going to help the Lakers with his driven personality and competitiveness.

FACT: Artest doesn't like playing in the post.

FACT: Artest likes stopping ball movement to create his own shot in even the most freelance offensive systems in Adelman's Princeton Offense.

FACT: Artest is an inconsistent 3 point shooter, despite what his percentage says. He'll shoot 1-8 sometimes, 2-9 sometimes, or even 6-7 sometimes.

FACT: He makes terrible decisions when attacking the basket (even in the few times he does this), he runs STRAIGHT into the defense, and while going towards the basket, the entire defense would often pile up in the lane forcing bad shots.

FACT: Artest has absolute terrible shot selection, he often likes to dribble the ball continuously and then jack up shots, RIGHT in the middle of the defensive player. Commentators for the Houston Rockets like Clyde Drexler have constantly criticized Artest's terrible shot selections, he's been a ball hog.

FACT: Artest likes to take his fair share of shots, throughout this season when Yao, McGrady, and Artest were often found on the court at the same time, Artest would DEMAND shots and once again in one of the most freelance ball movement offensive systems in the league.

FACT: Artest is an overrated defender that's based his rep off of his past.

FACT: Artest gets torched by many of the best offensive perimeter players in the league. Aside from Pierce, I didn't see a single good coverage on a player, defensively speaking. He's terrible, his lateral quickness absolutely sucks. Go watch some games, look at the times he does single coverage on LeBron, Wade, Melo, Roy, Richardson, Wallace, and Carter, he ABSOLUTELY gets torched. It's laughable.

FACT: I've witnessed this throughout the entire season, and so have many other Rockets fan, and they will tell you the same thing. They expected the same thing that the "popularly" opinionated Laker fans expect, and that is that he's a great slasher, an awesome player in motion offense, an awesome lock down defender, and one of the best perimeter post players in the league, but like I said, when he's getting open opportunities, he's not going to be doing those things, and he'll demand his shots, he stops ball movement, he was completely opposite of what Rockets fans thought. BUT that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy his stay, he was very entertaining, his personality is something that can mesh with any team.


FACT: I'm just too damn **** good sometimes

hahaha @ Baller24 quoting that awful Plaschke article. Are you being serious? One of the most terribly written pieces I've ever seen. Lmao, yes Ariza has a ring but so does Luke Walton and Sun Yue. LAKERS ARE GIVING UP WINS lol

LOL @ Kobe fans, you guys are the same ones that quote Jerry West continuously to bring up and HYPE the status of Kobe Bryant, you guys quote the opinion of Scottie Pippen to say Kobe is the best player this era, you guys continuously quote the opinion of media analyst constantly to hype up the status of Kobe Bryant. And I get criticized for posting a piece about Artest? God hypocrisy at it's finest is what you guys are.

So why did you make that thread about Kobe having the greatest supporting cast ever if Artest is not even better than Ariza?

[CB4MiamiHeat]

Only thing Ariza has over Artest is perimeter defense..Artest looks very slow on the perimeter, his defense took a step back but hes stronger than any SF, so hell guard someone like Carmelo for example, much better than Ariza did.

Other than that Artest is better than Ariza at everything, they guy actually creates his own shot and has handles, hes a much better passer, i cant beleive this is a serious discussion.

[Dr Aki]

well, we'll see how good artest is at defense when theres 2 7-footers behind him...

[Baller 24]

LOL the cult itself just collapsed on me.

[Baller 24]

Wait, weren't you the same person getting on me for quoting an All Time Great basketball player to support my opinion. Here you are quoting Bill Plaschke.

You're too much.

Yup, isn't this what your kind do all the time? Quote others to validate your opinion? Am I right or wrong? I think I'm right, as usual, you're right it feels good to be on the other side this time. Typical.

So why did you make that thread about Kobe having the greatest supporting cast ever if Artest is not even better than Ariza?

Artest is individually better than Ariza, sharpen your reading comprehension skills, I've posted that about 10,000 times this thread, the grammar king can't correlate? Fine, I'll do it the easy way.

---Artest is individually the better player compared to Ariza
---Ariza is better fit for a motion offense that's as freelance as the Lakers.

Two different things.

Only thing Ariza has over Artest is perimeter defense..Artest looks very slow on the perimeter, his defense took a step back but hes stronger than any SF, so hell guard someone like Carmelo for example, much better than Ariza did.

Other than that Artest is better than Ariza at everything, they guy actually creates his own shot and has handles, hes a much better passer, i cant beleive this is a serious discussion.

This isn't a thread to show who the better individual player is, it's WHO the better fit is for the Lakers, although Artest can create his own shots, he often likes to stop the motion offensive scheme to create his own shot, he's a terrible decision maker when doing so as he completely runs straight into the defense. He doesn't like playing in the post, he's an overrated defender, and he has an absolute crap shot selection. We'll see how things pan out, but from just seeing how he doesn't like to correlate in one of the most freelance offensive system's Rick's created, it's evident he doesn't like to follow it.

HAHA @ Baller 24 quoting Bill Plaschke


A Kobe hater citing a Kobe lover. classic

Doesn't matter, your kind do this all the time, "OMFG JERRY WEST SAID KOBE IS GOAT" , "OMFG SCOTTIE PIPPEN JUST SAID KOBE IS GOAT" , "OMFG IF THEY SAID THIS THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY RIGHT, ANYONE ELSE IS WRONG, EASILY". So why can't I use the argument you and your kind use all the time?

do you have some "inconsistent" stat that shows that artest is extra prone to hot and cold nights?

Yes, I guess I did have to look it up myself. Here's a sample:


(3PM/3PA/3P%)

Code: Select all

3   7   .429
2   6   .333
4   7   .571
2   4   .500
4   9   .444
1   10   .100
2   3   .667
4   6   .667
0   3   .000
0   4   .000
1   5   .200
4   5   .800
3   7   .429
2   7   .286
2   4   .500
5   7   .714
2   4   .500
2   4   .500
6   12   .500
3   4   .750
3   5   .600
5   8   .625
2   6   .333
3   4   .750
4   9   .444
0   8   .000
0   2   .000
4   8   .500
0   9   .000
1   4   .250
2   3   .667
2   4   .500
3   7   .429

He's wildly inconsistent, I showed how and here's the statistical evidence. He'll take shots that look bad and you'll be pulling your hair saying "WHY!?" He doesn't care, if he in his own mind thinks he's taking a very good shot, than he's going to take it, like I said, he did this constantly in one of the most freelance offensive systems in the league.

When The Rockets had their Big 3 playing at the same time, he often complained about not getting enough touches, and demanded more shots to come to him, despite him being a god awful fit and not doing ANY of the opinionated things you guys "supposedly" believe he does, like post up, slash to the hole, etc.

and LOL at "huge misinterpretation". what does that even mean? that interpreting that artest is a better 3 pt shooter is somehow wrong? artest not only shot 40% last yr, he shot 38% the yr before, and 36% before that. he's proven to be a better shooter, which was the point of the post above yours. what is wrong with that interpretation of the stats?

Done, look above.

anywhoo, your perceived inconsistencies in artest's shot is probably attributable to the wild inconsistencies in the rockets' offense, where one 6 minute stretch yao is creating inside out shots for artest, and another 20 minute stretch artest is ball hogging it on a team where he is free to do so.

Wrong. Rick's created a freelance offensive system for the Rockets that is built around Yao commanding attention, check the season before, the ball movement is amazing, but then this season as it was working fine, Artest would OFTEN take control of the offensive system, and STOP the freelance offensive system.

[iamworthy]

This thread is funny!

[kooldude]

HAHA @ Baller 24 quoting Bill Plaschke


A Kobe hater citing a Kobe lover. classic

Doesn't matter, your kind do this all the time, "OMFG JERRY WEST SAID KOBE IS GOAT" , "OMFG SCOTTIE PIPPEN JUST SAID KOBE IS GOAT" , "OMFG IF THEY SAID THIS THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY RIGHT, ANYONE ELSE IS WRONG, EASILY". So why can't I use the argument you and your kind use all the time?

I never once said anything like that or anything close. I was always firmly against using player's and reporter's opinions of players as a source of argument. I only find it acceptable when a player compares another to himself in a reasonable sense. (i.e. Russell on Wilt)

You're clearly reaching buddy.

[kooldude]

LOL the cult itself just collapsed on me.

it's hilarious bc Bill Plaschke is known for bias towards Kobe from his articles or from Around the Horn.

[-G-]

Man, that guy really hates Artest.

[Rain_Maker]

if money was no problem, than Ariza, but since money was/is a problem, ill go with Artest

[EHL]

He's a better player than Ariza and per minute has averaged just 3 shots more than Ariza did as a Laker during his career, despite Artest being a 2nd option most of his career. It's pretty obvious he's an upgrade and yet again this OP makes a terrible thread. Get over it, Kobe and the Lakers > your current favorite player/team.

@ this god awful post of yours to bash me. Your people's level of intelligence seems to always amaze me, probably couldn't even finish reading the entire post itself, due to the distraction of Kobe Bryant highlights volume 1 out of 10,000.

1) I never said Artest is a better player than Ariza, never did I say this.

2) I said Ariza was a better fit than Artest for the Lakers team that goes through a strict motion offensive scheme.

3) I watched Artest throughout the entire season, including the playoffs (every game), I made good posts about how he's going to help the Lakers with his driven personality and competitiveness.

FACT: Artest doesn't like playing in the post.

FACT: Artest likes stopping ball movement to create his own shot in even the most freelance offensive systems in Adelman's Princeton Offense.

FACT: Artest is an inconsistent 3 point shooter, despite what his percentage says. He'll shoot 1-8 sometimes, 2-9 sometimes, or even 6-7 sometimes.

FACT: He makes terrible decisions when attacking the basket (even in the few times he does this), he runs STRAIGHT into the defense, and while going towards the basket, the entire defense would often pile up in the lane forcing bad shots.

FACT: Artest has absolute terrible shot selection, he often likes to dribble the ball continuously and then jack up shots, RIGHT in the middle of the defensive player. Commentators for the Houston Rockets like Clyde Drexler have constantly criticized Artest's terrible shot selections, he's been a ball hog.

FACT: Artest likes to take his fair share of shots, throughout this season when Yao, McGrady, and Artest were often found on the court at the same time, Artest would DEMAND shots and once again in one of the most freelance ball movement offensive systems in the league.

FACT: Artest is an overrated defender that's based his rep off of his past.

FACT: Artest gets torched by many of the best offensive perimeter players in the league. Aside from Pierce, I didn't see a single good coverage on a player, defensively speaking. He's terrible, his lateral quickness absolutely sucks. Go watch some games, look at the times he does single coverage on LeBron, Wade, Melo, Roy, Richardson, Wallace, and Carter, he ABSOLUTELY gets torched. It's laughable.

FACT: I've witnessed this throughout the entire season, and so have many other Rockets fan, and they will tell you the same thing. They expected the same thing that the "popularly" opinionated Laker fans expect, and that is that he's a great slasher, an awesome player in motion offense, an awesome lock down defender, and one of the best perimeter post players in the league, but like I said, when he's getting open opportunities, he's not going to be doing those things, and he'll demand his shots, he stops ball movement, he was completely opposite of what Rockets fans thought. BUT that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy his stay, he was very entertaining, his personality is something that can mesh with any team.


FACT: I'm just too damn **** good sometimes

You need to look up the definition of the word "fact", you have no idea what it means. Saying Artest "doesn't like playing in the post" or that he is "an overrated defender" aren't facts, those are opinions, and terrible ones not based in reality or statistics. Artest does and can play in the post, observationally verifiable. He does play elite defense, observationally verifiable. These aren't "facts", but smart people know they're true. You're not part of the smart group and it's why, for example, you tried and failed to statistically substantiate that Artest was an inconsistent shooter because you didn't create a baseline for the definition of "inconsistent". Nor provided any context to those shooting nights; for example, when those nights occurred (consecutively? weekly?) or what scoring option he was on those teams (there's a huge difference between 2nd option, which Artest was most of the season on the Rockets, and 4th option, which is what Artest would be on the Lakers, making his "inconsistent shooting" far less of a problem with 3 other superior scoring options on the floor and therefore rendering your point entirely MOOT).

And frankly, the rest of your post was so downright dreadful that there's really no point in bringing down the IQ of the board further by quoting or breaking it down. If you want to play with the big boys, make sure you've graduated college by that day so the discussion isn't so juvenile from the get-go.

[tkb]

People can hate on Artest all they want, but he's going to be a champion in 1 year barring freak injuries. He makes our team better. We're not going to be pwned by big small forwards like Carmelo, Pierce and LeBron to the extent we have previously and Kobe is still a great defender against the quicker SFs.

If Odom re-ups, we're going to torch the league.

[CharlieMurphy]

did anybody else notice this:

1) I never said Artest is a better player than Ariza, never did I say this.

Artest is individually better than Ariza, sharpen your reading comprehension skills, I've posted that about 10,000 times this thread, the grammar king can't correlate? Fine, I'll do it the easy way.

---Artest is individually the better player compared to Ariza

he has no shame.

[Straightwitdaroc]

did anybody else notice this:

1) I never said Artest is a better player than Ariza, never did I say this.

Artest is individually better than Ariza, sharpen your reading comprehension skills, I've posted that about 10,000 times this thread, the grammar king can't correlate? Fine, I'll do it the easy way.

---Artest is individually the better player compared to Ariza

he has no shame.

[dingclancy]

Yes, I guess I did have to look it up myself. Here's a sample:


(3PM/3PA/3P%)

Code: Select all

3   7   .429
2   6   .333
4   7   .571
2   4   .500
4   9   .444
1   10   .100
2   3   .667
4   6   .667
0   3   .000
0   4   .000
1   5   .200
4   5   .800
3   7   .429
2   7   .286
2   4   .500
5   7   .714
2   4   .500
2   4   .500
6   12   .500
3   4   .750
3   5   .600
5   8   .625
2   6   .333
3   4   .750
4   9   .444
0   8   .000
0   2   .000
4   8   .500
0   9   .000
1   4   .250
2   3   .667
2   4   .500
3   7   .429

He's wildly inconsistent, I showed how and here's the statistical evidence. He'll take shots that look bad and you'll be pulling your hair saying "WHY!?" He doesn't care, if he in his own mind thinks he's taking a very good shot, than he's going to take it, like I said, he did this constantly in one of the most freelance offensive systems in the league.

OMG. That is your statistical evidence? Kobe and Fisher has worse shooting swings than that. You wasted a lot of time over nothing.

Here is what I did. I took the CSV of game logs from Basketball Reference then calculated the standard deviation of 3P%.

Here is what I got

Artest:
Population (Games): 69
STD: .212453

Kobe
Population (Games): 82
STD: .242368

Derek Fisher
Population (Games): 82
STD: .28547

Ariza:
Population (Games): 82
STD: .34332

Battier
Population (Games): 60
STD: .251834

Now if you do not know what STD is then read up, but that means the higher the number the more the 3P% vary. And look. Ron Artest is MORE CONSISTENT than Kobe and Fisher.

Ariza is even worse, but in fairness, he did not become a good shooter until the second half of the season.

Lakers fans know what inconsistent means. We survived Fisher.

Stop putting your foot in your mouth. If your exercise is what you call "statistical evidence", then learn what statistics and evidence means.

EDIT: I did the calculation wanting to see for myself if Artest is inconsistent as people are making out to be, but seeing the results surprised even me. lol!

[Don Draper]

@ Laker fans.

Someone of you guys obviously have not seen Artest play enough. My problem with Artest is not so much his shooting as much as it is his low basketball IQ. When Artest is playing as a team player he is gold but once he gets into "I'm going to attempt to score come hell or highwater" mode he is pure poison to an offense. Rockets fans don't hate Artest we know exactly what we got. We were once like you guys, Indy and Sac fans warned us until we saw first had just how toxic Artest can be, especially on offense. The most hilarious thing is how some of you guys are commenting as if you watched Artest extensively in the last season when it is obvious you haven't. If you watch Rockets games last year there is no way you would be saying the nonsense you are saying.

[j3yuen]

Ariza is a better fit for the lakers.

But when playing against cleveland or boston, I think Artest will be a much better fit because of his physical play. He'll provide some toughness against boston and he'll be able to slow down lebron james because artest is built like a tank, atleast that's what the announcers. So even though ariza's a better fit, artest is more important when it matters.

[iamworthy]

Im glad alot of non laker fans take such an interest into how the lakers will play next year with Ron Artest. Ron Artest work conditions have never, will never, be as great as they will be next year. From a Franchise standpoint, player standpoint, and coach standpoint. Also, the price we got him for is laughable.

[JordansBulls]

He's a better player than Ariza and per minute has averaged just 3 shots more than Ariza did as a Laker during his career, despite Artest being a 2nd option most of his career. It's pretty obvious he's an upgrade and yet again this OP makes a terrible thread. Get over it, Kobe and the Lakers > your current favorite player/team.

@ this god awful post of yours to bash me. Your people's level of intelligence seems to always amaze me, probably couldn't even finish reading the entire post itself, due to the distraction of Kobe Bryant highlights volume 1 out of 10,000.

1) I never said Artest is a better player than Ariza, never did I say this.

2) I said Ariza was a better fit than Artest for the Lakers team that goes through a strict motion offensive scheme.

3) I watched Artest throughout the entire season, including the playoffs (every game), I made good posts about how he's going to help the Lakers with his driven personality and competitiveness.

FACT: Artest doesn't like playing in the post.

FACT: Artest likes stopping ball movement to create his own shot in even the most freelance offensive systems in Adelman's Princeton Offense.

FACT: Artest is an inconsistent 3 point shooter, despite what his percentage says. He'll shoot 1-8 sometimes, 2-9 sometimes, or even 6-7 sometimes.

FACT: He makes terrible decisions when attacking the basket (even in the few times he does this), he runs STRAIGHT into the defense, and while going towards the basket, the entire defense would often pile up in the lane forcing bad shots.

FACT: Artest has absolute terrible shot selection, he often likes to dribble the ball continuously and then jack up shots, RIGHT in the middle of the defensive player. Commentators for the Houston Rockets like Clyde Drexler have constantly criticized Artest's terrible shot selections, he's been a ball hog.

FACT: Artest likes to take his fair share of shots, throughout this season when Yao, McGrady, and Artest were often found on the court at the same time, Artest would DEMAND shots and once again in one of the most freelance ball movement offensive systems in the league.

FACT: Artest is an overrated defender that's based his rep off of his past.

FACT: Artest gets torched by many of the best offensive perimeter players in the league. Aside from Pierce, I didn't see a single good coverage on a player, defensively speaking. He's terrible, his lateral quickness absolutely sucks. Go watch some games, look at the times he does single coverage on LeBron, Wade, Melo, Roy, Richardson, Wallace, and Carter, he ABSOLUTELY gets torched. It's laughable.

FACT: I've witnessed this throughout the entire season, and so have many other Rockets fan, and they will tell you the same thing. They expected the same thing that the "popularly" opinionated Laker fans expect, and that is that he's a great slasher, an awesome player in motion offense, an awesome lock down defender, and one of the best perimeter post players in the league, but like I said, when he's getting open opportunities, he's not going to be doing those things, and he'll demand his shots, he stops ball movement, he was completely opposite of what Rockets fans thought. BUT that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy his stay, he was very entertaining, his personality is something that can mesh with any team.


FACT: I'm just too damn **** good sometimes

hahaha @ Baller24 quoting that awful Plaschke article. Are you being serious? One of the most terribly written pieces I've ever seen. Lmao, yes Ariza has a ring but so does Luke Walton and Sun Yue. LAKERS ARE GIVING UP WINS lol

LOL @ Kobe fans, you guys are the same ones that quote Jerry West continuously to bring up and HYPE the status of Kobe Bryant, you guys quote the opinion of Scottie Pippen to say Kobe is the best player this era, you guys continuously quote the opinion of media analyst constantly to hype up the status of Kobe Bryant. And I get criticized for posting a piece about Artest? God hypocrisy at it's finest is what you guys are.

So why did you make that thread about Kobe having the greatest supporting cast ever if Artest is not even better than Ariza?

It's not about that. Artest is better than Ariza, but Ariza fits better on the team. He can actually hit the open 3 and someone you can trust when Kobe or Gasol are getting doubled.

It's like saying give the Lakers Stockton instead of Gasol that they win because Stockton is considered top 25 all time while Gasol is not. Stockton is better than Gasol clearly all time, but it doesn't mean he would have given LA a better chance to win than Gasol did because of need.

[iamworthy]

How many games have Artest played for the Lakers?