ALL RUBIO TALK HERE

[KWSN-Men]

Of course, being American or foreign doesn't change anything.

Of course it does. How many American players are UNDER CONTRACT with a team outside the United States when they are drafted by an NBA team? Even Brandon Jennings was not obligated to a contract as he was given the ability to simply cancel his contract.

The only player that even comes to mind is Calathes. And guess what? Calathes has an NBA opt out in his contract. Why? Because he's both American and Greek, making his case unique. Rubio, Andersen, Scola didn't get NBA opt outs because they were not Americans.

If Calathes was just Greek on the other hand, Dallas could keep his rights forever and not even worry about it.

You said it yourself, Calathes has an NBA opt out in his contract. So it has nothing to do with his nationality.

Calathes is AMERICAN.

[casey]

Is it an acceptable etiquette where you are from to say "it looks like you are making things up" to someone that knows something you do not? I sincerely hope not.

I don't think you know something that I don't. But I tried to remain as open-minded and respectful as possible: "If there's some rule that I'm unaware of, please, educate me. It looks to me like you're just making stuff up. If you're not, please correct me, show me how I'm wrong." Again, please explain to me how I'm wrong.

[deeney0]

Calathes is AMERICAN.

Yes. But that has zero baring here.

[younggunsmn]

Hi younggunsmn,

"Ricky has 2 things going in his favor:
1. court case
2. playing for joventut this year (and they get paid nothing for the buyout).

The longer this drags out the better the chances he ends up playing in the NBA this year.
Ultimately what happens depends upon how badly ricky wants to come to the NBA.

Ricky offering to pay a 3 million (US) buyout shows without a doubt that his first choice is to come to the NBA.

"Selling" his rights to another spanish club is appealing to joventut because it will probably garner them more money, and it may be slightly more appealing to ricky from a financial perspective to playing another year for joventut (provided is is only a 2 year contract with NO buyout for the 3rd year). But no team in their right mind will do this unless ricky wants to play there.

As we get closer to the court date and then the start of the season there is a good chance joventut will lower the buyout amount or at least negotiate. Trying to sell him to other spanish teams is the next step in this poker match.

Joventut also faces the stigma of being the team that kept ricky from the NBA. They are going to have a harder time signing young players if they gain the reputation of not being open to negotiating buyouts.

Also, with respect to minutes, we can offer him 32+. In euroleague, if I'm not mistaken, the bench plays alot more and starters only play 25-28 mins. Worst case for me is that he is sold to another spanish team and plays a backup role of only 15 mins per game.

I've read that Alberto Miralles had a similar lawsuit against joventut and he lost his arbitration hearing. Perhaps Ricky is different because he signed his deal at 14? genjuro maybe you can shed some light on this, because precedents could be important here"

I mostly agree with your point here, apart with some details. It is not clear at all that Rubio has such a clear case against Joventud. Looking at other cases like the Miralles one (and others) it seems that the most he could get is a reduction not as big as paying $3 million. So I would say that Joventud is cool about that case. (The case has date for october now which also plays in favor of Joventud) I agree though that the longer all this takes the more chances to play this year in the NBA. Unless that by November the Wolves don't find that cool to incorporate a new player.

I don't think that holding Rubio from going to the NBA is going to harm at all Joventud in any sense. For many reasons. To start with they don't go looking for young players to sign. They "make them". Sop for a kid of 11, 14 or 16 years to have doubts about signing because that might make difficult your jump to the NBA is not very realistic. On the other hand in Spain there is rather the common opinion among teams, coaches and bball institutions that these buyouts are necessary and something to be respected in other to protect the work that teams like Joventud do creating these players.

Joventud can not gain such a reputation, all teams do the same. Navarro, Scola, and others had to wait years before they could go go to the NBA for these same policies in other teams.

The bottom line is simple I think. Rubio really wants to go this year to the NBA. That's why he is willing to risk, that's why he went to draft and even if things turned not exactly in the easiest way to make it possible I think he and his agents are going to keep trying it until the very last moment.

Thank you for the info. In America high school athletics takes the role of "creating" players, I realize that is not the case in Spain and "club" basketball is the major outlet for teenagers. I don't think it is fair for teenagers to have such huge buyouts for such small salaries, but I can see how they often feel they have no choice because most of these clubs won't sign them otherwise.

The reason I say joventud is nervous about his buyout is because it is rumored they are in financial trouble and owe money to the spanish IRS, which they have used rubio's buyout as leverage against.

MnWi's info that they are looking at Pooh Jeter may be an inkling that they don't see rubio coming back.

[nilo]

Jesus! what a tension! You all calm down!

[KWSN-Men]

Citing examples is not citing rules. casey pulled the relevant rule from the CBA and showed you that you are mistaken.

Scola refused to sign with the Spurs because he was under contract with his European team. The Spurs tried to negotiate a buyout. If Scola had sat out basketball for a year, he'd be free to sign with any NBA team. That's not bias or a double standard.

Genjuro already pointed out in his response to Casey that those rules as stated in that link are incorrect. It seems that if something Genjuro writes agrees with your world view paradigm he is a legit source, but if something he writes disagrees with it, then it seems that you omit that part.

Can we just please get back to Rubio. No more hijacking of this thread please just stop it already. I explained the rule difference pages ago. This is ridiculous. Everyone stop hijacking the thread and stop arguing about something that was explained numerous times already.

[deeney0]

Citing examples is not citing rules. casey pulled the relevant rule from the CBA and showed you that you are mistaken.

Genjuro already pointed out in his response to Casey that those rules as stated in that link are incorrect. It seems that if something Genjuro writes agrees with your world view paradigm he is a legit source, but if something he writes disagrees with it, then it seems that you omit that part.

Uh, he supported casey's view, not yours:

Of course, being American or foreign doesn't change anything.

Seems to me you're the one who isn't listening.

[younggunsmn]

What his 197 IQ can't tell him is that it is the european BUYOUTS that keep these players from the NBA, not NBA rules as outlined in the CBA.

Jennings and calathes negotiated their own contracts with small affordale buyouts, it had nothing to do with their nationality.

many euro contracts contain these huge, unpayable buyouts,
especially spanish deals, which nilo gave a great explanation for WHY they are so large.

[nilo]

"Thank you for the info. In America high school athletics takes the role of "creating" players, I realize that is not the case in Spain and "club" basketball is the major outlet for teenagers. I don't think it is fair for teenagers to have such huge buyouts for such small salaries, but I can see how they often feel they have no choice because most of these clubs won't sign them otherwise.

The reason I say joventud is nervous about his buyout is because it is rumored they are in financial trouble and owe money to the spanish IRS, which they have used rubio's buyout as leverage against.

MnWi's info that they are looking at Pooh Jeter may be an inkling that they don't see rubio coming back."

Yes, both systems are quite different. Clubs like Joventud might have like 20 teams to take care of. Boys and girls from 10 years old up to the professional team. So they have that social side too.

In fact the case against Joventud would be entirely based exactly on that. That his salary was not proportioned to his buyout. But that is left to the discretion of the court since there is nothing written regarding how that proportion has to be. That's why so far the previous cases had showed mixed results. There are not many chances but I think there are some yet. It is also the first time that I think an European player of this age would do better playing at the NBA than in Europe.

[KWSN-Men]

Citing examples is not citing rules. casey pulled the relevant rule from the CBA and showed you that you are mistaken.

Genjuro already pointed out in his response to Casey that those rules as stated in that link are incorrect. It seems that if something Genjuro writes agrees with your world view paradigm he is a legit source, but if something he writes disagrees with it, then it seems that you omit that part.

Uh, he supported casey's view, not yours:

Of course, being American or foreign doesn't change anything.

Seems to me you're the one who isn't listening.

You just did in that post exactly what I said. Quoted the part he said that supported you and omitted the part that disagreed with you. Now can you please get back to Rubio and off of trying to personally argue with me for no reason at all?

I will not respond to you again if you are simply posting to argue with me and don't even have any intentions on the Rubio issue.

[younggunsmn]

from scola's wiki:

In the summer of 2005, the San Antonio Spurs of the NBA (who drafted Scola in 2002) attempted to negotiate with TAU to buy out his contract. After initially throwing around numbers as large as $1.5 million, TAU eventually settled on a still higher number of over $3 million dollars for the contract. This made it difficult for Scola to join fellow Argentina national team member Manu Ginóbili in San Antonio because of the NBA's rule which limits teams to paying no more than $500,000 of a player's buyout.[1] Scola would have been responsible for paying TAU the remaining $2.5 million. When the deal to buy out Scola's contract fell through, the Spurs instead signed an Argentine national team teammate and friend of Scola's Fabricio Oberto.

On July 12, 2007, the Spurs traded the rights to Scola, along with center-forward Jackie Butler, to the Houston Rockets in return for Vassilis Spanoulis, a future second-round draft pick, and cash considerations. He signed with the Rockets soon after[2] and his sticky buyout situation was resolved a few days later.[3] Scola signed a three-year contract with the Rockets, at a salary of $9.5 million.

BUYOUT was the issue, not CBA.
But I suppose 197-man won't see this since I'm on ignore for my ugly americanism.

[deeney0]

You just did in that post exactly what I said. Quoted the part he said that supported you and omitted the part that disagreed with you.

Where does he disagree with me? I'm not saying anything other than the fact that there is no written distinction in the rules between Europeans and Americans; you are the only one disagreeing with that.

[casey]

What Gen said is that there's another rule saying that on a certain day if the player isn't offered a contract and isn't under contract with a non-nba team, that he becomes a free agent. But again, that is the same if you are an American or a foreigner.

[nilo]

many euro contracts contain these huge, unpayable buyouts,
especially spanish deals, which nilo gave a great explanation for WHY they are so large.

In fact I think that these buyouts we are talking about only apply to Spain. I am not totally sure here. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. In Italy at least this does not exist. In Italy if an euro team wants to sign a player with a contract there is no buyout. The trade is done entirely on the team holding his rights wanting to negotiate for that trade (a bit like in the NBA). In Spain was like that until the early 90's when there was a case in court in which a professional player was claiming his working rights. He claimed that it was not legal that a company (his team) would hold him from joining another company (another team). So after that case professional contracts have to include the clause 1006 in which an amount is agreed for the player to compensate his team whenever he wants to leave. So, at the end those buyouts are the way in which trades are done with players of the ACB. Or a negotiated reduction of that amount. I am not sure that there are other countries in Europe with that system. At least in Italy not. In Italy there is a negotiation, but not a figure included in the contract.

[big3_8_19_21]

This isn't a partial quote:

What exactly is it that you don't grasp here?

See Luis Scola and David Andersen. It's really something to know that a so-called "Euroleague homer" knows NBA rules much better than self-described "NBA fans", the same ones dubbing others "Euroleague homers".

Could you just write down your imaginary NBA rules here so we can move on?

[KWSN-Men]

many euro contracts contain these huge, unpayable buyouts,
especially spanish deals, which nilo gave a great explanation for WHY they are so large.

In fact I think that these buyouts we are talking about only apply to Spain. I am not totally sure here. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. In Italy at least this does not exist. In Italy if an euro team wants to sign a player with a contract there is no buyout. The trade is done entirely on the team holding his rights wanting to negotiate for that trade (a bit like in the NBA). In Spain was like that until the early 90's when there was a case in court in which a professional player was claiming his working rights. He claimed that it was not legal that a company (his team) would hold him from joining another company (another team). So after that case professional contracts have to include the clause 1006 in which an amount is agreed for the player to compensate his team whenever he wants to leave. So, at the end those buyouts are the way in which trades are done with players of the ACB. Or a negotiated reduction of that amount. I am not sure that there are other countries in Europe with that system. At least in Italy not. In Italy there is a negotiation, but not a figure included in the contract.

A lot of European clubs outside of Spain put buyouts to their players.

[nilo]

A lot of European clubs outside of Spain put buyouts to their players.

I think that's what I used the expression "these buyouts" to mean that what a buyout means in Spain is something different. But I only know the cases of Italy and Russia where the buyout is entirely to the discretion of the teams holding the rights while there is a contract. The only other important competition left is the Greek one. And I don't know about that. But thanks for the clarification.

[gensu3k1]

KWSN, am I supposed to infer that you cannot divulge the identity of the "President" who met with you and your Mom after your IQ's were tested because of some sort of state secrets pledge?

[sorokii]

Speaking of soccer, there are buyouts also in Portugal, apart from Spain, but England, Italy, Germany, Netherlands and France do not have buyouts. If you want to sign a player from one of those countries, you need to negotiate with the team. Then, if that team is not willing to negotiate, sometimes there is no trade, other times the player asks to leave everywhere, even in media, claiming to go where his will wants to (case of C. Ronaldo, or more recently Ribery). But still in Spain very often is the same, some of those buyouts are so high that any team won´t pay them. Messi now is maybe the top footballer in Europe, he has a buyout of 300 million €, but imagine he wants to leave Barcelona, and tries to force it. Even if he gets his team to do it, it wont be for that amount because it´s unaffordable, Barcelona and the other team would need to get to an agreement.

[nilo]

Speaking of soccer, there are buyouts also in Portugal, apart from Spain, but England, Italy, Germany, Netherlands and France do not have buyouts. If you want to sign a player from one of those countries, you need to negotiate with the team. Then, if that team is not willing to negotiate, sometimes there is no trade, other times the player asks to leave everywhere, even in media, claiming to go where is will wants to (case of C. Ronaldo, or more recently Ribery). But still in Spain very often is the same, some of those buyouts are so high that any team won´t pay them. Messi now is maybe the top footballer in Europe, he has a buyout of 300 million €, but imagine he wants to leave Barcelona, and tries to force it. Even if he gets his team to do it, it wont be for that amount because it´s unaffordable, Barcelona and the other team would need to get to an agreement.

I agree