How does any of this help us beat orlando?

Ballah · Post #1 » by **Ballah** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:17 am

Can Shaq defend the pick and roll? can he defend at all anymore? We resign Varejao for about 7 mil a year and for about the same they get Bass, commonly refered to as the "future of dallas" on their forums. We get Anthony Parker, they get Vince freaking Carter. Are we gonna be a better team next year? yeah im fairly sure we will, although i think the league will be more competitive and we won't match our win total. Thats not what matters though, the one thing that matters is making sure we don't get embarrassed by Orlando again, and so far i see us falling further behind them rather than catching up.

landphil · Post #2 » by **landphil** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:36 am

Orlando got Vince Carter yes but who have they lost? Gortat, Alston, Courtney Lee, and Turkoglu. They lost their 2 most athletic guys, 3 starters (alston after nelson got hurt but still). They also lost the guy who creates so many problems for us in Turk and now their lineup looks like this...

Nelson/Johnson
Vince Carter/Reddick/Pietrus
Pietrus/Vince Carter/Bass
Lewis/Bass/Anderson
Howard/Foyle

Does that lineup scare you? I mean they have good starters yes but they have no depth and they dont create as many of the matchup problems as they did this year. And Shaq can still defend because to be effective on D against Howard you only need a big body (Example A: see Kendrick Perkins) and now thats what we have with Shaq. We also have a second unit with AV and Z coming on potentially where the pick and pop is open and the D wont lag too much with AV in there.

I agree with you that the rest of the league got better especially the Spurs and the Celtics but I wouldnt worry too much about the Magic. I would argue they got much worse or at least lost much of what made them them this offseason.

rjgraca · Post #3 » by **rjgraca** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:51 am

You know...you almost sound like an Orlando fan in your first post here on RealGM.

This is a Orlando Homer magnet thread. As some Magic homer's have posted...the off season isn't over yet.

Bass doesn't have the intangibles that Varejao (getting the CAVs extra possessions or pissing off the guy he's guarding to get them off their game) has or play defense as well. Their offense is about the same.

If you check the Shaq verses Howard match-up last season...it was pretty close which is all the CAVs are asking of Shaq is to challenge Howard like that which will make that pick and roll harder to execute against the CAVs.

It's just good VC...not Vince freaking Carter anymore. Delonte West held him to 8 pts. in one game last season and this coming season he will have Tony Parker to help. The embarrassment from last season against Orlando came from the CAVs head coach more than the players and the series had like two overtime games too.

If you are a CAVs fan, it's a little early to be in panic mode since the CAVs have improved over last season's team without losing a significant player.

The Cleveland Cavaliers and their summer shuffle: Breaking down an ever-changing roster

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The off-season is far from complete for the Cavaliers, who still have numerous decisions to make. But the core of the team for next season appears to be mostly set.
At this point there will be at least three new players: Shaquille O'Neal, Anthony Parker and Danny Green.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf ... nd_th.html

Cleveland Cavaliers' Mike Brown is on a hot seat for 2009-10, and he's fine with it: Terry Pluto

That's why losing to Orlando in the Eastern Conference Finals still pains Brown.

He talks about the "What ifs ... the 'we couldda, we shouldda' ... Monday morning quarterbacking" that he has done after the series. He knew Orlando presented "a tough matchup," but thought "we could beat them in a 7-game series."

Instead, it was over in six. He was second-guessed for the breakdown of his defense, for having James chase around Rafer Alston rather than defend one of Orlando's taller and more gifted players. Brown doesn't talk about it, but no doubt accepts he could have done a better job.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/ind ... brown.html

Ballah · Post #4 » by **Ballah** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:57 am

Apart from dunking on Lebron Lee hardly did anything against us, Nelson is a clear improvement over Alston as well as VC over Turkoglu. They haven't actually lost Gortat yet, from reading their boards it seems like they might now. Do they scare me? hell yeah, i vastly underestimated them last year and they have very clearly improved their team this off season.

Ballah · Post #5 » by **Ballah** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:58 am

rjgraca wrote:You know...you almost sound like an Orlando fan in your first post here on RealGM.

Its actually not, my login just didn't work anymore but i was posting here throughout the playoffs.

Post #6 » by **TheOUTLAW** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:02 am

I don't think that they are clearly improved either. They might be, but then we should be as well.

This has a high likelihood of getting out of control so this is the one and only warning that I'll be giving to this thread.

Gordon Bombay · Post #7 » by **Gordon Bombay** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:04 am

any mention of that o-word is immediately going to open the flood gates...prepare for some long-winded posts in response

RockTHECasbah · Post #8 » by **RockTHECasbah** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:04 am

landphil wrote:Orlando got Vince Carter yes but who have they lost? Gortat, Alston, Courtney Lee, and Turkoglu. They lost their 2 most athletic guys, 3 starters (alston after nelson got hurt but still). They also lost the guy who creates so many problems for us in Turk and now their lineup looks like this...

Nelson/Johnson
Vince Carter/Reddick/Pietrus
Pietrus/Vince Carter/Bass
Lewis/Bass/Anderson
Howard/Foyle

Does that lineup scare you? I mean they have good starters yes but they have no depth and they dont create as many of the matchup problems as they did this year. And Shaq can still defend because to be effective on D against Howard you only need a big body (Example A: see Kendrick Perkins) and now thats what we have with Shaq. We also have a second unit with AV and Z coming on potentially where the pick and pop is open and the D wont lag too much with AV in there.

I agree with you that the rest of the league got better especially the Spurs and the Celtics but I wouldnt worry too much about the Magic. I would argue they got much worse or at least lost much of what made them them this offseason.

what the?

Benedict_Boozer · Post #9 » by **Benedict_Boozer** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:01 am

This thread will be a magnet for ORL homers.

bcortell · Post #10 » by **bcortell** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:19 am

rjgraca wrote:You know...you almost sound like an Orlando fan in your first post here on RealGM.

This is a Orlando Homer magnet thread. As some Magic homer's have posted...the off season isn't over yet.

Bass doesn't have the intangibles that Varejao (getting the CAVs extra possessions or pissing off the guy he's guarding to get them off their game) has or play defense as well. Their offense is about the same.

If you check the Shaq verses Howard match-up last season...it was pretty close which is all the CAVs are asking of Shaq is to challenge Howard like that which will make that pick and roll harder to execute against the CAVs.

It's just good VC...not Vince freaking Carter anymore. Delonte West held him to 8 pts. in one game last season and this coming season he will have Tony Parker to help. The embarrassment from last season against Orlando came from the CAVs head coach more than the players and the series had like two overtime games too.

If you are a CAVs fan, it's a little early to be in panic mode since the CAVs have improved over last season's team without losing a significant player.

The Cleveland Cavaliers and their summer shuffle: Breaking down an ever-changing roster

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The off-season is far from complete for the Cavaliers, who still have numerous decisions to make. But the core of the team for next season appears to be mostly set.
At this point there will be at least three new players: Shaquille O'Neal, Anthony Parker and Danny Green.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf ... nd_th.html

Cleveland Cavaliers' Mike Brown is on a hot seat for 2009-10, and he's fine with it: Terry Pluto

That's why losing to Orlando in the Eastern Conference Finals still pains Brown.

He talks about the "What ifs ... the 'we couldda, we shouldda' ... Monday morning quarterbacking" that he has done after the series. He knew Orlando presented "a tough matchup," but thought "we could beat them in a 7-game series."

Instead, it was over in six. He was second-guessed for the breakdown of his defense, for having James chase around Rafer Alston rather than defend one of Orlando's taller and more gifted players. Brown doesn't talk about it, but no doubt accepts he could have done a better job.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/ind ... brown.html

Man I wish we had Tony Parker, now that would be sweet. :lol:

(Does anyone call him "Tony Parker" and not Anthony Parker?)

Manny Phresh · Post #11 » by **Manny Phresh** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:29 am

Reverse psychology :lol:

L&H_05 · Post #12 » by **L&H_05** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:29 am

Ballah wrote:Can Shaq defend the pick and roll? can he defend at all anymore? We resign Varejao for about 7 mil a year and for about the same they get Bass, commonly refered to as the "future of dallas" on their forums. We get Anthony Parker, they get Vince freaking Carter. Are we gonna be a better team next year? yeah im fairly sure we will, although i think the league will be more competitive and we won't match our win total. Thats not what matters though, the one thing that matters is making sure we don't get embarrassed by Orlando again, and so far i see us falling further behind them rather than catching up.

Please.. You're not even close to being correct.. In fact, your entire post was stupid, and kinda came off as a Orlando fan masking as a Cavalier fan..

Could Z guard the pick and roll ?? HELL NO..

Ya know, ever since we got Shaq, that's the only damn thing people can refer to.. At NO POINT and I mean NO POINT in our series against the Magic did anyone even remotely suggest we lost that series due to Z's inability to guard the pick and roll... The commentators never mentioned it.. The post game analysis never mentioned it.. The post game write ups never mentioned it...Why ?? Because it wasn't the core issue.. Now all of a sudden everyone refers to the pick and roll... Give me a f'n break..

Take that pick and roll argument and burn it...

Also, Brandon Bass is a worry for us now ?? "commonly referred to as the FUTURE OF DALLAS"Again, get lost with that.. I don't give a damn what they called him in Dallas.. If he was any damn good, the Mavs would have had a much better showing against the Nuggets, they wouldn't have been looking for a lowpost presence, and they would have went all out to keep this guy...What is the big deal ?? He's a player that gets garbage production.. If anything, Bass at the starting PF spot means it slides Rashard to the 3 spot which makes it much easier for the Cavaliers defensively.. Why ?? Well, Bass does not cater to the offense that Orlando runs.. He's more of a physical/plodding presence as opposed to a player that can step out and really shoot the ball...If he doesn't start at the PF spot, and comes off the bench, WHY in the hell are you worried about him ??? Bottom line, he's a poor passer, (never passes out of the post anyways) below average rebounder and weak defender... 6pts 4rbs 0ast 0stl 0blk PER GAME averages for a career.... Yeah, he's dominant... What a future for Dallas and now Orlando ... :roll:

You just gloss over Shaq in a negative light due to pick and roll and then bust out a "VINCE FREAKING CARTER" like it's 1999.

The same Vince FREAKING Carter that teams up with Jameer Nelson to form one of the weakest defensive backcourts in the league... The same Vince FREAKING Carter that doesn't have a deciding height advantage over are guards... And the same Vince FREAKING Carter that has been known to be a playoff choke...

Sorry, but I think the Orlando team that just got done playing the Lakers for the championship, with a year of experience + a healthy Nelson added to that team would be a much tougher opponent than this current model...

We on the other hand improved significantly, and I doubt we're done... Shaq gives us a true low post presence.. Someone that Dwight has to actually guard... Someone that can pick up a foul or two on Dwight, to go along with LeBron's attacking ability... Someone that can actually pass (superbly I might add) out of the post... Someone that can command a double team as well as get his own from the low block... Someone that can finish in the paint... We don't need a 27pts and 12rbs Shaq... We need a 15pts and 9rbs type of Shaq, and I'm sure we're gonna get that in a contract year (if healthy of course)

We get a much more consistent big guard in Parker... Someone that can play in Boobie or Sasha's role, and actually be a pretty consistent performer... Someone that can stretch the floor, and also provide some length along the perimeter...

All we need now is to get that PF spot filled... And I'm sure that will come via trade at some point..

At this point, I'm more worried about a healthy Boston team than this Orlando squad...

RevMan26 · Post #13 » by **RevMan26** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:57 am

L&H_05 wrote:
Ballah wrote:Can Shaq defend the pick and roll? can he defend at all anymore? We resign Varejao for about 7 mil a year and for about the same they get Bass, commonly refered to as the "future of dallas" on their forums. We get Anthony Parker, they get Vince freaking Carter. Are we gonna be a better team next year? yeah im fairly sure we will, although i think the league will be more competitive and we won't match our win total. Thats not what matters though, the one thing that matters is making sure we don't get embarrassed by Orlando again, and so far i see us falling further behind them rather than catching up.
Please.. You're not even close to being correct.. In fact, your entire post was stupid, and kinda came off as a Orlando fan masking as a Cavalier fan..

Could Z guard the pick and roll ?? HELL NO..

Ya know, ever since we got Shaq, that's the only damn thing people can refer to.. At NO POINT and I mean NO POINT in our series against the Magic did anyone even remotely suggest we lost that series due to Z's inability to guard the pick and roll... The commentators never mentioned it.. The post game analysis never mentioned it.. The post game write ups never mentioned it...Why ?? Because it wasn't the core issue.. Now all of a sudden everyone refers to the pick and roll... Give me a f'n break..

Take that pick and roll argument and burn it...

Also, Brandon Bass is a worry for us now ?? "commonly referred to as the FUTURE OF DALLAS"Again, get lost with that.. I don't give a damn what they called him in Dallas.. If he was any damn good, the Mavs would have had a much better showing against the Nuggets, they wouldn't have been looking for a lowpost presence, and they would have went all out to keep this guy...What is the big deal ?? He's a player that gets garbage production.. If anything, Bass at the starting PF spot means it slides Rashard to the 3 spot which makes it much easier for the Cavaliers defensively.. Why ?? Well, Bass does not cater to the offense that Orlando runs.. He's more of a physical/plodding presence as opposed to a player that can step out and really shoot the ball...If he doesn't start at the PF spot, and comes off the bench, WHY in the hell are you worried about him ??? Bottom line, he's a poor passer, (never passes out of the post anyways) below average rebounder and weak defender... 6pts 4rbs 0ast 0stl 0blk PER GAME averages for a career.... Yeah, he's dominant... What a future for Dallas and now Orlando ...

You just gloss over Shaq in a negative light due to pick and roll and then bust out a "VINCE FREAKING CARTER" like it's 1999.

The same Vince FREAKING Carter that teams up with Jameer Nelson to form one of the weakest defensive backcourts in the league... The same Vince FREAKING Carter that doesn't have a deciding height advantage over are guards... And the same Vince FREAKING Carter that has been known to be a playoff choke...

Sorry, but I think the Orlando team that just got done playing the Lakers for the championship, with a year of experience + a healthy Nelson added to that team would be a much tougher opponent than this current model...

We on the other hand improved significantly, and I doubt we're done... Shaq gives us a true low post presence.. Someone that Dwight has to actually guard... Someone that can pick up a foul or two on Dwight, to go along with LeBron's attacking ability... Someone that can actually pass (superbly I might add) out of the post... Someone that can command a double team as well as get his own from the low block... Someone that can finish in the paint... We don't need a 27pts and 12rbs Shaq... We need a 15pts and 9rbs type of Shaq, and I'm sure we're gonna get that in a contract year (if healthy of course)

We get a much more consistent big guard in Parker... Someone that can play in Boobie or Sasha's role, and actually be a pretty consistent performer... Someone that can stretch the floor, and also provide some length along the perimeter...

All we need now is to get that PF spot filled... And I'm sure that will come via trade at some point..

At this point, I'm more worried about a healthy Boston team than this Orlando squad...

Vine FREAKING Carter man. It's Vince FREAKING Carter.

You pretty much wrote what I was going to write. That dude is an Orlando homer. Agree with all your points.

Post #14 » by **B Mac** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:02 am

BUT ITS VINCE FREAKING CARTER!!!!!

BOOM!

Big ups LANDH!!

Post #15 » by **infinite11285** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:11 am

Orlando is reporting they signed Gortat.

Post #16 » by **Rise Against** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:45 am

infinite11285 wrote:Orlando is reporting they signed Gortat.

They as in ?

prekazi · Post #17 » by **prekazi** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:37 am

infinite11285 wrote:Orlando is reporting they signed Gortat.

/end thread.

LMAO

Post #18 » by **infinite11285** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:41 am

Frankie wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:Orlando is reporting they signed Gortat.

They as in ?

"They" as in Orlando.

YouthMovement · Post #19 » by **YouthMovement** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:10 pm

landphil wrote:Orlando got Vince Carter yes but who have they lost? Gortat, Alston, Courtney Lee, and Turkoglu. They lost their 2 most athletic guys, 3 starters (alston after nelson got hurt but still). They also lost the guy who creates so many problems for us in Turk and now their lineup looks like this...

Nelson/Johnson
Vince Carter/Reddick/Pietrus
Pietrus/Vince Carter/Bass
Lewis/Bass/Anderson
Howard/Foyle

Does that lineup scare you? I mean they have good starters yes but they have no depth and they dont create as many of the matchup problems as they did this year. And Shaq can still defend because to be effective on D against Howard you only need a big body (Example A: see Kendrick Perkins) and now thats what we have with Shaq. We also have a second unit with AV and Z coming on potentially where the pick and pop is open and the D wont lag too much with AV in there.

I agree with you that the rest of the league got better especially the Spurs and the Celtics but I wouldnt worry too much about the Magic. I would argue they got much worse or at least lost much of what made them them this offseason.

Um, yes, that lineup has four all-stars and one of the more underrated players in the league and is ridiculously athletic and can defend. The Magic got better, so did the Cavs.

landphil · Post #20 » by **landphil** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:25 pm

Yes Orlando has 4 all stars in their lineup but we have 2 mvp's and 3 all stars total and we are much deeper than Orlando off the bench. Plus, the main reason Orlando gave us so many problems is because of the matchups they had with Turk at the 3. Now that is gone in favor of Vince Carter? All I was saying was that we addressed our need at center and getting a wing and orlando lost 4 key pieces of their team in Turk, Lee, Alston, and Gortat.