Re Multiple Ongoing Rondo Trade Scenarios

[celtxman]

Rondo is not being traded for anyone not named Chris Paul or Deron Williams (maybe Rose but that ain't happening), In other words, he's not getting traded this off-season.

Forget any scenarios involving him. Hard to believe how under-valued he is. I'll take him over TJ any day - even without a jump-shot, and I know I'm not alone on this...

I'm not sure which scenarios you are talking about. The TJ Ford stuff came from a post that indicated that TJ Ford could be gotten for next to nothing. Before that even happened rumors that had to have some legs to them talked about Rondo being involved in trades to move up into the high lottery. If you can get a PG who may not be as good as Rondo is now, but is better than the Rondo who started the championship season. If you can add quality youth (say Tyreke Evans and Jason Thompson from Sacramento) the net result of the 3 players may be greater than Rondo. And you also are no longer worrying about signing Rondo to close to a MAX contract.
From what I can see most people fall into the category of having no objection to having Rondo as their PG with no trades, but would listen to something that would help the team overall. I don't think anyone is really underrating him and because of the contract noise I have no problem checking out the options and only pulling the trigger on something clearly advantageous. My guess is Rondo will be back and that's fine.

[Cyclical]

I'm not sure which scenarios you are talking about.

Hmmm... Just read this board. You'll easily find the posts. An Indiana scenario was indeed offered up here. A kings one as well. Only in the last couple of days.

[celtxman]

I'm not sure which scenarios you are talking about.

Hmmm... Just read this board. You'll easily find the posts. An Indiana scenario was indeed offered up here. A kings one as well. Only in the last couple of days.

I was more referring to a scenario where he is undervalued was implied and I haven't seen anything that would trade him straight up for Ford. I just haven't come accross something that is just looking to get rid of Rondo without purpose.

[sam_I_am]

In a way this is a bizarre thread. Rondo is the key to whether we win a flag in 2010. He is the wild card. If he plays like he did in portions of last season and in the Bulls series, the Cs will be favorites to win it all, assuming the other key players remain healthy.

Rondo was never the best player on the team. But honestly this "key' crap gets old. If we lost any of the big 3 to injury we would be in trouble. Would win without Pierce? No. He is the "key" then. How about "KG" if we lost him he would be "key.'

Pete

Pete you hit the nail on the head. Rondo is an exciting player but he benefits from playing alongside 3 hall of famers. Any mediocre pass first point guard looks great when they have 3 guys out there who must be double teamed. Against Orlando when Dwight Howard could just park in the paint Rondo was simply awful. He was the 4th best Celtic in that series and the 10th best player in that series. He was also the 3rd best PG (even Anthony Johnson outplayed him). Had KG been on the court he probably would have looked a whole lot better.

With a full array of options why trade him? We all know that next year his unselfishness, athleticism, wacky collection of talents will make him a major threat. As long as the big 4 are together Rondo is a perfect fit at his current salary. But is he really worth 10 million a year? That is the key question. Because in 4 years he could look like Scalabrine out there if the #1 and #2 scoring options are Perkins and Walker.

[GuyClinch]

Pete you hit the nail on the head. Rondo is an exciting player but he benefits from playing alongside 3 hall of famers. Any mediocre pass first point guard looks great when they have 3 guys out there who must be double teamed. Against Orlando when Dwight Howard could just park in the paint Rondo was simply awful. He was the 4th best Celtic in that series and the 10th best player in that series. He was also the 3rd best PG (even Anthony Johnson outplayed him). Had KG been on the court he probably would have looked a whole lot better.

Agreed. People on this board act like the opposing team does not exist. If a guy puts up the best numbers for one series - by god he is the best Celtic! Years of beating defenses and making all-star teams don't matter. Getting abused and exposed in the next round doesn't matter either.

The Bulls scheme and style was a great matchup for Rondo. He exploited that. Great for him. But don't confuse that with greatness. Great players are a threat against any team at any time. Doubles and triples on them just make other players more effective. I could quote Doc again but the fan boys on this forum just think that he was "lying" to lower Rondo's value. <g>

I side with Doc Rivers on this one. Great players don't get ignored by the opposing teams defense. Basketball isn't like baseball. It's not just about the "numbers" because teams actually influence who gets said numbers.

People here seem to think the Orlando series was some strange event - that Rondo played poorly but that wouldn't happen again. Sure it would. Orlando used a different and very effective approach with Rondo. They decided to make him a scorer. Because he is limited and not a very efficent scorer it worked great.

That doesn't happen to your "best" player. If teams dared to play off Pierce or Allen or KG they would throw down 50 on them - and do it efficently.

Pete

[sam_I_am]

really? show me another 23 year old guard who has had a playoff series like Rondo in NBA history? I will save you some time: Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson. There is no list of 23 year old guards who had brilliant series and then crappy careers. Rondo is a force.

To compare what Rondo has done with Scal is absurd.

And comparing Rondo to Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson is any less absurd?

I would say that it is. He's closer to Oscar Robertson than he is to Brian Scalabrine. He put up RIDICULOUS numbers in that Chicago series. If we had somehow lost it, and he didn't play in Orlando, the anti-Rondo crowd would be a lot quieter.

I'm not saying he's Magic or Robertson but to answer your question, yes, it is less absurd to compare Rondo to them than it is to compare him to a career bench player.

Rondo is nowhere near Magic or Oscar. Those guys wouldn't have a line of 4-11 with Rafer Allston ignoring them entirely on defense. Magic would drop 42 on Dwight Howard playing Center at age 20 like he did against Chocolate Thunder the early 80's version of Howard.

The difference between an all time great like the Big O or Magic and a great player like Paul Pierce is pretty huge. The difference between a guy like Pierce and Rondo is huge too. I think Rondo actually is closer to Scal than to Magic Johnson. I mean to compare him to those guys is to compare him to Lebron James 8-10 years from now after his legacy is fully established.... and that just isn't right. It is a joke to compare Rondo to James now.

This reminds me of the Al Jefferson talk. Very good player but to say he couldn't be traded for KG was pure homerism. I want Rondo to stay a Celtic for a long time.... but only at a fair price. If he gets 10-12 million a year from some GM because he was fortunate enough to shine next to 3 potential hall of famers..... good for him. I would rather trade him like we did Al Jefferson than get saddled with an overpaid overrated player.

[MVP16]

Pete you hit the nail on the head. Rondo is an exciting player but he benefits from playing alongside 3 hall of famers. Any mediocre pass first point guard looks great when they have 3 guys out there who must be double teamed.

Efficiency wise, yes playing with 3 hall of famers does help. But as we saw how Rondo played when KG was out, his numbers increased almost across the board. The big 3 do not make him a good player. The thing about Pierce being doubled teamed, so what? Then Rondo gets an open jumper? Well that plays into that weakness. That makes House look better. Bricking a wide open mid range jumper doesn't make Rondo look good. He looks his best when he has the ball in his hands and the big 3 take away from that because they require the ball in their hands too. The big 3 improve his shooting % because he can pick and choose his shots, but they hurt most of his other stats.

Against Orlando when Dwight Howard could just park in the paint Rondo was simply awful.

Of course, I could see that before the series started. Most of Rondo's shots come in the paint. When you are facing the best shot blocker in the league, the player is naturally going to struggle scoring. No doubt that he needs to improve his shooting to move to the next level. But it is possible that it happens, he is just entering his 4th year.

He was the 4th best Celtic in that series and the 10th best player in that series. He was also the 3rd best PG (even Anthony Johnson outplayed him). Had KG been on the court he probably would have looked a whole lot better.

How was he the 4th best Celtic? Are you saying Ray Allen was better? The guy averaged 13 points on 34% shooting and didn't give much else. Or are you saying Big Baby was better? He averaged 1/2 the rebounds of Rondo and he is our pf. I'll give you Pierce and Perk, but after that Rondo was still our 3rd best player in the Orlando series even though his shooting hurt us. And he was the 3rd best pg? Alston averaged 10 points on 33% shooting and Johnson got 4 points on 37% shooting. This is laughable.

With a full array of options why trade him? We all know that next year his unselfishness, athleticism, wacky collection of talents will make him a major threat. As long as the big 4 are together Rondo is a perfect fit at his current salary. But is he really worth 10 million a year? That is the key question. Because in 4 years he could look like Scalabrine out there if the #1 and #2 scoring options are Perkins and Walker.

Well yeah, if our best scoring options in 4 years are Walker and Perkins, we have deeper problems then paying Rondo 10M a year. But Rondo doesn't need great players to make him look good. He needs shooters. That's why I (and Doc) think that Sheed will make Rondo better because we now can put 4 good shooters around Rondo.

[sam_I_am]

Yes Ray Allen, Perk and Pierce were better. Big Baby did win a huge game for us so you could even argue he was better. Orlando also ignored Big Baby and on many occasions he made them pay. Rondo really hurt us in Orlando series and in first loss of series his turnovers killed the rally that could have won that game. That being said, I do think Rondo was the 3rd best player on our team even if his performance was subpar. I do think he is a very good player .... just not in the same category as the Chris Pauls and Deron Williams who are more than just the best point guards in game... .they are among the best players which Rondo is not.

We can talk percentages with Ray Allen but you have to watch the film to see what was happening. A defender was in his face all series long. Rondo was ignored. I have never seen a professional ball player left more wide open ever. And he couldn't capitalize.

So regardless of his rebounds, steals, percentages etc., in this instance it is the actual way that Orlando game planned him that said it all.

You can argue all day how good Rondo is. But in a 7 game series, the opposing team decided the best way to beat Boston was to suffocate Ray Allen and pretty much ignore Rondo. And it worked.

[sam_I_am]

Danny Ainge knows full well how a player on a great team can be overrated. He saw it first hand when Larry Bird went down and he himself was exposed. I remember thinking he was a great player and without Larry he was proven to be a great role player - no shame in that just not the type of guy you pay top dollar for. Rondo is a perfect fit for the Big 3 just as Ainge was for the original Big 3 .... at the right price.

[celticsfanforlife]

trade him ... we're going to have to trade him one day anyway...

4 team trade idea

miami gives up beasley, haslem and cook
utah gives up korver, harpring, boozer, brewer, koufos, first
indiana gives up granger and ford, first round pick
boston gives up ray,rondo, allen, scalabrine, giddens

miami gets brewer, boozer, giddens + indiana first
utah gets haslem, scal, ray allen, pruitt
indiana gets cook, rondo, beasley, tony allen and korver
boston gets granger, ford, harpring, koufos and utah first

ford/marbury/house
granger/daniels/walker
pierce/harpring
kg/big baby/
sheed/perk/koufos

Utah: Gets to put a starting 5 of Williams/Allen/Kirilenko/Millsap/Okur
Miami: Gets Boozer, Brewer, Giddens, Signs Odom, gets a good first rounder from Indiana
Indiana: Gives up Ford and Granger, but gets Rondo and Beasley to rebuild around, as well as a shooter in Korver..
Boston: Gives up two huge assets in Rondo and Ray, but gets the best player in the trade: Danny Granger. TJ Ford is a very good point guard and Harpring makes our bench spectacular. Koufos is a young big to work on and we get a first rounder. Harpring is also an expiring contract. Trade gives us more roster spots as well..

[GuyClinch]

Probably next offseason is the year for Rondo trades assuming DA doesnt' give him an extension...

[Tricky Ricky]

And then how average he was against a team that actually played defense...

Our whole team sucked in that series

[GuyClinch]

Our whole team sucked in that series

That's the problem. You shouldn't be able to play off an NBA player and have him suck!