Six questions on Hakeem Olajuwon (toned down)

[Point forward]

I regularly post on the PC board and people there have the strangest opinions on him. So I wanted to get some advice here. Sorry if my questions seem very detailed, but we PC people have debated A LOT on Hakeem.

EDIT: toned down version, less nitpicky questions

1. On a GOAT list, how high would you rank Hakeem? What could Hakeem do what Moses Malone, Robinson, Zo, a young Shaq and Ewing could not?

2. Do you, at any time, think that Hakeem was better than Magic or Jordan? Was Hakeem robbed of any MVPs?

3. Relative to his peak, how good was he a) before and b) after his double rings? (Note: this is a very important question for the PC board)

4. How good would you describe his supporting casts (Sampson/McCray, Horry/Smith, Barkley/Drexler), especially in comparison to Jordan's?

5. Did he, at any time, develop "trade me or else" tendencies?

6. Could he have won more rings, or at least more Finals berths?

Thanks for your input! The PC guys and me greatly appreciate any answers!

[kane2021]

[HoustonRockets]

goat i got him at number 3

jordan
magic
hakeem

[jove9]

1. On a GOAT list, how high would you rank Hakeem? What could Hakeem do what Moses Malone, Robinson, Zo, a young Shaq and Ewing could not?

I'd rank Dream right under Jordan and probably Wilt. What could Hakeem do that those other centers could not? His footwork, man. The way he moved made him unstoppable. On top of that, he led the league in rebounding twice, shot blocking three times, and is the only guy in league history to win DPOY, MVP, and Finals MVP in the same season. His defense landed him on all of the defensive player lists throughout his career.

Dream OWNED most of those centers throughout the prime of his career. Robinson, Zo, Shaq, and Ewing aren't even close to Dream. Malone is a different story. You probably already knew this, but Dream started to develop his offensive game at the Fonde in HOU playing against Moses. To this day, he credits Moses (along with Dawson and others) for teaching him how to score. I've gotta give the teacher his props.

BTW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

2. Do you, at any time, think that Hakeem was better than Magic or Jordan? Was Hakeem robbed of any MVPs?

Yeah, Dream was the best player in basketball during our championship years, and was pretty damn close to it for a couple of years leading up to them and right after. He was robbed of the '95 MVP, but understandably so. Robinson had a hell of a last regular season game and his team was the best in the NBA that year.

3. Relative to his peak, how good was he a) before and b) after his double rings? (Note: this is a very important question for the PC board)

No doubt, Dream peaked during the championship years, but he was a great player before and for another after. Then he got the injury bug. Check his stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... uha01.html

4. How good would you describe his supporting casts (Sampson/McCray, Horry/Smith, Barkley/Drexler), especially in comparison to Jordan's?

The years we won, we had quality role players who played to their skill set. When we got Barkley, we had too many stars and not enough quality role players to fill in. Still, we almost made it back to the finals....

I think that what both Jordan's teams and Dream's teams have in common is the mix of stars and good role players. When you get this combination, and the chemistry is good, teams play well. The debate over who was better (Jud Buechler or Pete Chilcutt) doesn't matter.

5. Did he, at any time, develop "trade me or else" tendencies?

I read Dream's book years ago and I also followed the team in the early nineties. In '91 or '92, if I remember correctly, Dream demanded a trade because he didn't believe that he was being treated (paid?) fairly. He reportedly worked out the problems on an airplane ride somewhere. When the team was sold to Les Alexander, the problems disappeared.

6. Could he have won more rings, or at least more Finals berths?

Yeah, in '96. I still remember that shot Stockton made....

[tha_rock220]

1. On a GOAT list, how high would you rank Hakeem? What could Hakeem do what Moses Malone, Robinson, Zo, a young Shaq and Ewing could not?

There was no real way to stop Hakeem.

I put Hakeem at #6. He's not quite on the level of the GOAT trio of Wilt, MJ, and Kareem. He's comparable to Magic and Bird IMO, but I can't put him over either in good conscience. I would not have any major objections(read insults) to anyone putting Shaq, Duncan, or Russell above Hakeem.

The Admiral was limited by his post footwork.
Alonzo had a hard time with anyone he couldn't overpower.
Ewing was too mechanical.
Young Shaq couldn't be stopped, but if you guarded him 1 on 1 he couldn't find anyone to pass to.

2. Do you, at any time, think that Hakeem was better than Magic or Jordan? Was Hakeem robbed of any MVPs?

In 93 I think Hakeem vs MJ was debatable, and I think he was better in 95.

3. Relative to his peak, how good was he a) before and b) after his double rings? (Note: this is a very important question for the PC board)

You could see his age beginning to show even as he was winning his rings. He was still a phenominal athlete but no longer the freak he was in his 20's. I honestly feel his "peak" was related more to his having good teammates and developing leadership.

4. How good would you describe his supporting casts (Sampson/McCray, Horry/Smith, Barkley/Drexler), especially in comparison to Jordan's?

Dream and Chuck didn't really work well together, but the 97 team was talented. I think his team with Sampson was pretty good and really had a future before injuries and drugs. The 94 team had an unspectacular supporting cast, but they did have chemistry. I don't think Hakeem ever enjoyed teammates of the caliber Jordan had after 1990.

5. Did he, at any time, develop "trade me or else" tendencies?

There was a time in the early 90's where he faked an eye injury. I'm not familiar with the situation.

6. Could he have won more rings, or at least more Finals berths?

I don't really know how to answer that. His career was what it was. You could argue if he had better teammates, coaches, etc, but he didn't.

[texasholdem]

In 93 I think Hakeem vs MJ was debatable, and I think he was better in 95.

Barkley won the MVP in 1993. Dream was 2nd. MJ was 3rd.
Hakeem did win his 1st DPOY award that year

There was a time in the early 90's where he faked an eye injury. I'm not familiar with the situation.

he didn't fake it. bill cartwright elbowed him in the face and he wore googles when he came back after missing a month.

Patterson accused him of faking an injury after that but it was for his knee i think.

[Mr. E]

Damn, jove9 wrote what I was thinking almost word for word!

Nice post, man!

[jove9]

Damn, jove9 wrote what I was thinking almost word for word!

Nice post, man!

Thanks!

[Point forward]

I regularly post on the PC board and people there have the strangest opinions on him. So I wanted to get some advice here. Sorry if my questions seem very detailed, but we PC people have debated A LOT on Hakeem.

EDIT: toned down version, less nitpicky questions

1. On a GOAT list, how high would you rank Hakeem? What could Hakeem do what Moses Malone, Robinson, Zo, a young Shaq and Ewing could not?

2. Do you, at any time, think that Hakeem was better than Magic or Jordan? Was Hakeem robbed of any MVPs?

3. Relative to his peak, how good was he a) before and b) after his double rings? (Note: this is a very important question for the PC board)

4. How good would you describe his supporting casts (Sampson/McCray, Horry/Smith, Barkley/Drexler), especially in comparison to Jordan's?

5. Did he, at any time, develop "trade me or else" tendencies?

6. Could he have won more rings, or at least more Finals berths?

Thanks for your input! The PC guys and me greatly appreciate any answers!

Thanks for all the answers up to now, it is greatly appreciated. As for me, here my take on Dream:

1. I have him about at 7 or 8, slightly behind Erving but in front of Kobe. He was simply more versatile than any of his center peers, and was pretty clutch... but "only" could take so much punishment w/o slowly breaking down.

2. Maybe 1995 he could have been MVP, but I won't lose any sleep on that.

3. I think he was "better" before his rings but not a great leader (yet... but he was still young), and after, he was a good leader but injury prone. Still a Top 3 player though most of the time, and Top 5 at worst.

4. I think Hakeem got a bit shafted on the QUALITY of his team mates, but he had an incredibly cohesive unit during his ring runs. Smith, Cassell, Maxwell, Thorpe are very underrated IMHO.

5. I don't think he was very happy with the Rox at the end of the 1980s, but I think he became a superb role model (on and off the court) after he turned to Islam.

6. I thought that the Barkley teams were better on paper than on the hardwood, but still, they could have beaten the Jazz. The Rox wasted a late 10pt lead in Gm6 before Stockton took that 3. Other than that, a bit hard w/o that much support.

[kam_soluusar]

1. GOAT He'd be number 2 behind Wilt with Jordan and Kobe tied at 3.

You may ask why? well if not for Wilt's 100Pt game, he'd slip down the list considerably. I believe that Dominant big men that can so utterly destroy and humiliate an opposition are rarer than a SG that can do the same. Olajuwon achieved two things that Jordan never did. A Quadruple Double, and DPOY, FMVP, and MVP in the same year. Yes, Jordan got six rings, and however many MVP's. I am not here to debate who is better Jordan Vs Olajuwon. Just state that Hakeem is number 2 alltime, and if wilt never scored 100, Hakeem would be number 1. (for what it is worth, I don't think anyone will ever score 100 in a game.

Dream was robbed in 1995 when Robinson got it. He showed that in the finals.

Like any player at an NBA level, it can take time, (variable between players, also dependant on age bracket, and relative college experience. Remember, Europe was not a big market at this time.) In saying this Olajuwon's impact as a rookie was immediate, instantly gaining a plus 50% win margin. He developed quickly, (Props to Moses Malone) and displayed quickly why he would be the ultimate centre. As many have said it was footwork, this is what essentially made Hakeem better than any other centre before, and after. Jabbar had the Sky Hook, Olajuwon had the Dreamshake. You may have heard Shaq talk about it, like it's the Holy Grail of a Centres abilities. Once the Dreamshake was developed to it's full potential. it was just the benefit of experience that was needed. That, and the perfect supporting cast. Sadly, he developed injury problems around 97 - 98. and was never really the same after that. I feel that his move to Toronto was to benefit Houston, not because of a need to leave H-Town. As many have said, his only problem was an eye injury that was rumoured to be fake. Hakeem took this very personally, but all's well that ends well.

I am not a fan of "Stacking" teams with stars. We did this, and it was a catastrophe. Once H-Town signed Barkley, we sort of became like today's H-Town. (Yao/Hakeem injured) (T-Mac/Drexler injured) Barkley and Pippen injured. I don't miss those days!

[McGrady2Head]

lets stop being homers. he isnt even on the top 10 list for greatest of all time. jordan, bird, magic, kareem, wilt, russell, west, oscar, duncan, and shaq. i really dont even think he was better than ewing or robinson, its debatable. also karl malone could have arguably been better too. i know im forgetting alot of players, hakeem is probably around 19 or 20

[texasholdem]

lets stop being homers. he isnt even on the top 10 list for greatest of all time. jordan, bird, magic, kareem, wilt, russell, west, oscar, duncan, and shaq. i really dont even think he was better than ewing or robinson, its debatable. also karl malone could have arguably been better too. i know im forgetting alot of players, hakeem is probably around 19 or 20

mario elie thinks hakeem was better than duncan and he played with both of them.
ewing is debatable?

[jove9]

lets stop being homers. he isnt even on the top 10 list for greatest of all time. jordan, bird, magic, kareem, wilt, russell, west, oscar, duncan, and shaq. i really dont even think he was better than ewing or robinson, its debatable. also karl malone could have arguably been better too. i know im forgetting alot of players, hakeem is probably around 19 or 20

mario elie thinks hakeem was better than duncan and he played with both of them.
ewing is debatable?

Shaq ALSO thinks Hakeem is the best center to ever play the game.

I'm curious, McGrady2Head. How old are you? Did you ever see Hakeem or anyone else from before, say, '98 play?

[moofs]

lets stop being homers. he isnt even on the top 10 list for greatest of all time. jordan, bird, magic, kareem, wilt, russell, west, oscar, duncan, and shaq. i really dont even think he was better than ewing or robinson, its debatable. also karl malone could have arguably been better too. i know im forgetting alot of players, hakeem is probably around 19 or 20

Jordan - Yes
Bird - Yes
Magic - Yes
Kareem - Yes
Wilt - Yes
Russell - I'd say no
West - I'd say no, but this could easily be trumped by someone with the right argument
Oscar - Maybe
Duncan - Probably
Shaq - They're about even. Shaq aged better (which has SHOCKED me).
Ewing - Not a chance
Robinson - Quite possibly. Robinson certainly put up better stats, especially considering he played several fewer years. Who consistently owned who, though?
Karl Malone - I refuse to say he's better whether he is or not.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... uha01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nda01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lka01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... gpa01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... dla01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sma02.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ati01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nka01.html

Hakeem might rank better had his younger offensive game been as polished as it was in his older days. (the same thing that's held Howard back more recently)

[McGrady2Head]

jove, im curious, how old are you? you seem to ignore the fact that west, russell, bird, magic, oscar, etc all played before 1998. and they were all on my list. are you even paying attention to what your writing or are you just obsessed with my posts like always

[TMU]

1. Jordan
2. Russell (yes)
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Bird (yes)
6. Magic (yes)
7. Olajuwon

[moofs]

(i was waiting on you put russell there, tmu )

Yeah, he's probably somewhere between 7-15. Certainly no higher than 25.

[Ribalding]

If the contest was "Best Etonic Commercial by an NBA Player"...

Dream...is...unbeatuhbull. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJrIxeVATv4

Otherwise, T-Mac United's #7 ranking is realistic.