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OT: Officer Crowley

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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#81 » by sully00 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:04 pm

HighAboveCourtside wrote:
Don't hide from the facts of the case with your assumptions. I have stated all along that Gates overreacted to being suspected for robbing his own home, and at the same time the officer overreacted to being called a racist. But only one man was imprisoned.

sully00 wrote:Conversely, if a police officer knocked on your door and asked you to step outside and you asked why and he said because we got a call that a two Celtics fan were robbing the house and obviously a Celtics fan couldn't own a house on the Cape so put your hands against the wall and spread 'em.


The cop said "you can't be the rightful owner of this house because you're black"? Is that in the police report?? Please provide a link, I would love to see that.


This is Gates account:
All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’

My lawyers later told me that that was a good move and had I walked out onto the porch he could have arrested me for breaking and entering. He said ‘I’m here to investigate a 911 call for breaking and entering into this house.’ And I said ‘That’s ridiculous because this happens to be my house. And I’m a Harvard professor.’ He says ‘Can you prove that you’re a Harvard professor?’ I said yes, I turned and closed the front door to the kitchen where I’d left my wallet, and I got out my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license which includes my address and I handed them to him. And he’s sitting there looking at them.

Now it’s clear that he had a narrative in his head: A black man was inside someone’s house, probably a white person’s house, and this black man had broken and entered, and this black man was me.

So he’s looking at my ID, he asked me another question, which I refused to answer. And I said I want your name and your badge number because I want to file a complaint because of the way he had treated me at the front door. He didn’t say, ‘Excuse me, sir, is there a disturbance here, is this your house?’—he demanded that I step out on the porch, and I don’t think he would have done that if I was a white person.

But at that point, I realized that I was in danger. And so I said to him that I want your name, and I want your badge number and I said it repeatedly.


I cannot cut and paste Crowley's version but it is here
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images ... 98.001.pdf

I think both men leave out the parts that make them look bad, we all would.

But it is also pretty clear that Gates was a scared, if abusive old man, who was neither a threat or a criminal. Once that was determined the experienced and decorated officer did not apologize for the mix up or do anything to calm him down. Crowley instead perceived Gates' allegations of racism as a threat and either in panic or anger reacted to that by threatening and following through with arresting Gates.

Both men were wrong, both felt disrespected, but only one of them arrested a man not because of something he did but because he could.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#82 » by Joyeuse » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:04 pm

aboubata wrote:Anyone defending Gates in here is either
1. Never had to deal with similar situation. I had seen white people treated the same way for similar reasons.
2. Thinks just because Gates is black the officer should have been nice to him. Well that doesn't fly.


Except that nobody here has stated that white people aren't ever subjected to harsh treatment by the police, and nobody here has stated that the officer should have been nice to Gates because he is black. Gates immediately assumed mal-intent of the police officer and proceeded to mistreat him and act uncooperative, so the officer lured Gates out onto his front porch where he could legally make an arrest without a warrant based on a minor charge. The officer should not have arrested Gates because there was no real crime committed. Being rude to a police officer while standing on your front porch shouldn't get you arrested, no matter who you are.

It is a statistical fact that blacks are subjugated to disproportionately higher rates of incarceration than whites. Psychological studies on snap judgments generally show that police officers are more likely to assume a subject in a picture is holding a gun or breaking a law or making a threat when that subject is black. As a result, it is not exactly a huge leap to associate a police officer arresting a black man essentially for being extremely rude when talking back to him with the pattern of bias against blacks among law enforcement officers. But even assuming for a second the exact same thing would have happened if Gates had been white, I don't see how it looks much better that instead of just blacks, ANYONE can be arrested just for being rude on his or her front porch.

None of this vindicates Gates for the role he played in his own arrest. He was rude and uncooperative to police officers who were responding to a 911 call and just doing their jobs. But that doesn't suggest that the police were heroes.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#83 » by GuyClinch » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:08 pm

The cop did the right thing, IMHO. This is everything I didn't like about higher education rolled into one incident. You have a certain procedure to follow when there has been a break in called in. You HAVE to check ID. You can't just "assume" because the guy looks like an old man that he doesn't have partner in there holding someone at gunpoint.

The cop went EXACTLY by the book. Even the arrest was by the book. He was cursing and swearing at the cop and that for any man is disorderly conduct. You can be disorderly in a wheel chair. And shame on the supporters of Gates in this thread.

Think about what would happen if Gates was being kidnapped and the cop went away because some dude was just holding a cane.. This hurts Obama too IMHO. If anyone acted stupidly - it was Obama. Following procedure is not stupid.

Pete
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#84 » by sully00 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:09 pm

HighAboveCourtside wrote:
sully00 wrote:Take the "black" out of it and how does 58 year old well dressed man with glasses in Cambridge, identifying himself as a Harvard professor, fit as a description of house robber?


This is the reason why old ladies are occasionally searched at the airport, even though they don't "look" like terrorists. You never know. But I bet they just accept it's for their general safety and don't scream prejudice. Do you live in Disney World? Or Pleasantville?


You can't be this ignorant. He wasn't searched or questioned for being a 58 year old man, or a random search at an airport. He was suspected of robbing his own home because he was black in Cambridge and there is a huge friggin problem with that.

This is why 58 year old nationally renowned Harvard professor feel like they can't trust the police.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#85 » by GuyClinch » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:11 pm

You can't be this ignorant. He wasn't searched or questioned for being a 58 year old man, or a random search at an airport. He was suspected of robbing his own home because he was black in Cambridge and there is a huge friggin problem with that.


Get a clue. A break in was CALLED IN. They have to question him. And you have the gall to call people stupid. LMAO.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#86 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:19 pm

This seems about class, a little bit, as well as race. Gates sounds shocked and indignant that a police officer would not treat him with the courtesy one normally affords a well-dressed, well-mannered older man (& Harvard professor) who sees his innocence as self-evident.

What's really absurd is that the neighbor couldn't recognize Gates. That's the most obvious incidence of prejudice and white panic. Doesn't help Boston's reputation as a racist town.

You can't blame Gates for being angry, but it seems clear that Gates' indignation before authority brought out Crowley's least honorable instincts. You also can't blame a black man in America for being defensive before authority rather than patient and apologetic for his own existence. But there's an odd way in which both parties may have been equally prejudiced- prejudice likes to over-generalize, to inflate our lowest, worst fears - so Crowley sees a black man as a potential criminal and perhaps an Angry Black Man (& likely perceives more anger than was actually displayed) and Gates sees a white officer as a potential abuser of authority- to cite Diallo's case as evidence that white police officers are irrational, quick-trigger racists is, in some way, similar to citing Willie Horton as evidence that black men are irrational, violent criminals. The problem seems to have been exacerbated by mutual distrust.

Are there other facts or numbers statistics to inform this discussion? The Forbes one helped. It's also true that we incarcerate African-Americans at a rate which I have not heard explained by anything other than institutional racism.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#87 » by HighAboveCourtside » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:19 pm

sully00 wrote:
HighAboveCourtside wrote:
sully00 wrote:Take the "black" out of it and how does 58 year old well dressed man with glasses in Cambridge, identifying himself as a Harvard professor, fit as a description of house robber?


This is the reason why old ladies are occasionally searched at the airport, even though they don't "look" like terrorists. You never know. But I bet they just accept it's for their general safety and don't scream prejudice. Do you live in Disney World? Or Pleasantville?


You can't be this ignorant. He wasn't searched or questioned for being a 58 year old man, or a random search at an airport. He was suspected of robbing his own home because he was black in Cambridge and there is a huge friggin problem with that.

This is why 58 year old nationally renowned Harvard professor feel like they can't trust the police.


Seriously??? You wanted the "black" taken out of it, and then YOU THROW IT RIGHT BACK IN!!!

It's not like the cop was driving through the neighborhood, saw Gates and assumed he was breaking in. He was called in for a B&E, and as a good cop, investigated it. Gates wasn't arrested for B&E. He was arrested for disorderly conduct (which both sides admit). What is the issue here?
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#88 » by HighAboveCourtside » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:22 pm

andy582 wrote:It's also true that we incarcerate African-Americans at a rate which I have not heard explained by anything other than institutional racism.


I understand that racial profiling exists and there are some racist cops out there, but isn't it entirely possible that African-Americans commit more crimes than other races?
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#89 » by Celtics_Champs » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:29 pm

Kefa461 wrote:Howsabout them Celtics.........

8-)


It's the off-season. I actually like reading Celtics fans views on the world outside the green.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#90 » by sully00 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:30 pm

GuyClinch wrote:The cop did the right thing, IMHO. This is everything I didn't like about higher education rolled into one incident. You have a certain procedure to follow when there has been a break in called in. You HAVE to check ID. You can't just "assume" because the guy looks like an old man that he doesn't have partner in there holding someone at gunpoint.

The cop went EXACTLY by the book. Even the arrest was by the book. He was cursing and swearing at the cop and that for any man is disorderly conduct. You can be disorderly in a wheel chair. And shame on the supporters of Gates in this thread.

Think about what would happen if Gates was being kidnapped and the cop went away because some dude was just holding a cane.. This hurts Obama too IMHO. If anyone acted stupidly - it was Obama. Following procedure is not stupid.

Pete


You don't know that. No one can confirm that. How can you accept the officer's version of events and not the professor's version of events?

Weren't the charges dropped?

Hell you even add that Gates swore at the officer, something the officer does not allege. Crowley states that Gates was yelling at him "that he was a racist," "that he had not heard that last of him," and that he "wanted his name and badge number." For doing this from his own front porch Crowley decided that he was guilty of disorderly conduct.

Love the whinny ass conservative slice of hope though.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#91 » by aboubata » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:35 pm

NFL fans are now feeling what NBA fans been living for a while...
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#92 » by Joyeuse » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:36 pm

I am pretty sure I heard somewhere that the woman who called the police was not a neighbor, and was actually just a passerby. Seeing two people forcing their way into a house seems to be a fair reason to call the police; she had no way of knowing one of them owned the house. I wouldn't classify the whole situation as unambiguous racism, so much as there are several aspects of the incident that sound like police failures that resemble a general pattern of racism in law enforcement.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#93 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:43 pm

sweatdog wrote:So for kicks I can approach an officer and verbally abuse him until im blue in the face or he gets in his cruiser and speeds away? As long as I dont come across as threatening ...

Sorry that doesnt fly on Cape Cod. I guess we have sensitive cops down here.



And those cops are in the wrong -- not that they're any different from other cops in that regard.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#94 » by HighAboveCourtside » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:44 pm

sully00 wrote:You don't know that. No one can confirm that. How can you accept the officer's version of events and not the professor's version of events?


The same way you can only accept the professor's version, and not the officer's.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#95 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:44 pm

sweatdog wrote: Perhaps the conclusion of the incident was extreme in that Gates was put in cuffs, but it WAS within the officers authority.


Not according to the laws of the Commonwealth or the Constitution of the United States.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#96 » by aboubata » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:45 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
sweatdog wrote: Perhaps the conclusion of the incident was extreme in that Gates was put in cuffs, but it WAS within the officers authority.


Not according to the laws of the Commonwealth or the Constitution of the United States.



what does the Law say?
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#97 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:47 pm

GuyClinch wrote:

The cop went EXACTLY by the book. Even the arrest was by the book. He was cursing and swearing at the cop and that for any man is disorderly conduct.


NO HE DIDN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO IT WASN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See the Slate link, for example.

Sorry for going off on you. It's not personal. I'm just frustrated having to repeat the point.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#98 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:49 pm

aboubata wrote:
what does the Law say?


Per http://www.slate.com/id/2223379/ , it says the behavior has to rise to the level of inciting a riot or something similar to be arrestable.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#99 » by sully00 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:56 pm

HighAboveCourtside wrote:
andy582 wrote:It's also true that we incarcerate African-Americans at a rate which I have not heard explained by anything other than institutional racism.


I understand that racial profiling exists and there are some racist cops out there, but isn't it entirely possible that African-Americans commit more crimes than other races?


Not statistically arrests and even convictions fall along the percentages. African Americans commit about 20% of the crime. But represent a disproportionate amount of the population in prison. This has nothing to do with racial profiling. This is most likely related to economic factors, tough for poor people to cry that they are an upstanding part of society, or to get a decent lawyer. Drug charges also have extremely stiff mandatory sentences.

Prosecutions are an adversarial process, so a tougher lawyer can plead out a better sentence for his client than PD. It is more complicated than this but this is the flavor.
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Re: OT: Officer Crowley 

Post#100 » by GuyClinch » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:02 pm

Not statistically arrests and even convictions fall along the percentages. African Americans commit about 20% of the crime.


Are you factoring in the kinds of crimes they committed? The laws are pretty harsh on drug crimes which alot of unhappy people resort too. So thats not "institutional racism. Its just bad laws.

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