Summer Roster Limits

[WarFan]

Is the 15 man roster limit strictly enforced during the off-season or can a team sign or trade for players, placing them over 15 roster slots?


Specifically, right now the Warriors have the following 14 players under contract for '09-'10:
Ellis
Biedrins
Maggette
Jackson
Claxton
Turiaf
Azubuike
Wright
Law
Curry
Randolph
Belinelli
Davidson
Morrow

Plus, they are holding the early bird rights on CJ Watson, which fills 15 roster spots afaik.

Can GS go out and sign somebody with the MLE right know without renouncing Watson or waiving a player?

[Three34]

Yes. It's 20 during the offseason. This is how all those training camp signings are allowed to happen.

[WarFan]

Thanks a lot!

Can't wait to rub this in someone's face

[Dunkenstein]

Plus, they are holding the early bird rights on CJ Watson, which fills 15 roster spots afaik.

It's not Watson's early bird status that causes him to take up a roster spot, it's the qualifying offer that the Warriors gave him that generated the cap hold.

[Chris Cohan]

More speculative, perhaps, but:

What are the chances of a team, say the Warriors, using an allowance primarily reserved for fielding summer rosters to hand out more than 15 guaranteed contracts or even 15 guaranteed and one partially guaranteed, forcing later cuts of guaranteed salary portions and definitely costing them money on players they won't get use out of?

Or, of course, leading to desperate 2-1 or 3-1 trade pursuits.

Seems a great way to damage negotiating leverage with players across the board.

[Three34]

I don't understand the question, but whatever it was, the presumed answer to it is that you can pretty much do whatever you like with the 20 spots until the season starts. You want to sign 20 guaranteed contracts, you do that. But you have to be down to 15 on the roster by opening night.

[Chris Cohan]

The question is, would a team put itself on the hook like that knowing it immediately puts its fringe players on buyout, trade, or release watch? Can't open with more than 15, but can have more than 15 guaranteed deals during the Summer.

Anyone actually do it? With their MLE, perhaps the FULL MLE?

Any reason to think the Warriros would be a team that would?

Warriors have 13 guaranteed contracts if Watson re-signs, for example, plus Morrow and Davidson's unguaranteed deals (I'm considering Morrow's, effectively, fully guaranteed). Any further additions make Davidson expendable, I'm sure, but a Claxton buy out might make sense, too.

Any summer invites are basically getting no shot at the team at that point, given the Warriors storied history of not eating money (Foyle buy out notwithstanding).

[Dunkenstein]

. . . given the Warriors storied history of not eating money (Foyle buy out notwithstanding).

The Warriors recently have had a history of "eating money". Last season they waived the guaranteed contracts of both Marcus Williams and Richard Hendrix. The prior season they waived the guaranteed contract of Troy Hudson and bought out Sarunas Jacikevicius for $1M.

None of these were the size of Foyle's buyout, but it does show their willingness to sign a minimum player to a guaranteed contract and then waive him when Nellie tires of him.

[Chris Cohan]

None of those players besides Hudson were FA acquisitions and Hudson's injury issues were considerable. No idea about his guaranteed status then, or insurance coverage or rules regarding. Troy Hudson is the only example of released SIGNINGS available beside Foyle, OK.

So perhaps we still don't have a good answer to my question.

Has any team actually signed a player to a guaranteed contract with the summer roster allowances in play and FORCED themselves to release guaranteed money on other guaranteed or partially guaranteed roster spots with no negotiating leverage, as the Warriors look like they'd have to if they were pursuing any of the serviceable FAs right now?

Claxton seems like an easy release but they'd still have to pay him more out of pocket as a non-factor than they paid Hudson as a player incapable of playing, wouldn't they?

[Chris Cohan]

Almost forgot,

Hendrix was not fully guaranteed, I don't believe, and Williams was not released until the trade deadline had passed- there was no pressure to release him due to other contractual complications, but your point on Nelson's recent trend is one I know well.

The team effectively has all of its fringe roster players on cut notice right now if they're seriously pursuing any sort of decent FA. CJ Watson may want to play for Orlando and not be a trade casualty with no say in his destination under the Warriors control, but he still has them with no real shot at decent FAs unless they're axing slary on players they have thus far done nothing but promote as assets in public.

[Dunkenstein]

Hendrix was not fully guaranteed, I don't believe.

Hendrix was fully guaranteed. I know it for a fact. In fact they still owe him $100K for this season.

As for Watson, now that the Magic have used their MLE on Bass and Barnes, the only way he gets to Orlando is with a S&T. And considering the Warriors don't trust either Law or Claxton, it's unlikely they'll participate in a S&T with the Magic for Watson.

[FGump]

CC, this is a silly line of questions. In general, teams prefer not to do things that force them to eat contracts. That shouldn't be surprising. They'll explore every angle they can before settling for that one.

At the same time, if they feel like they can better themselves by getting rid of one guaranteed deal (and eating the dollars) with another, it's an option that happens here and there. If you don't think that guy you already have can be of ANY value to you (including trading him for another player, using him as needed filler in a trade, rehabbing his play where he can help you somehow, and so on), it's "sunk cost" on your roster and you're always better to move forward.

As to the Warriors, Dunk was right on target, whether you want to accept it or not. The W's have shown the willingness recently to sign a 16th player to a guaranteed deal which then precipitates them having to waive someone already under guaranteed contract.

[Chris Cohan]

Hendrix was drafted, for those turning this into something they have not proven yet.
Show me where the Warriors took on a 16th contract ever and then cut guaranteed salary before opening camp.

Or, more to the point of the question: has any team done this?

The parameters of my quesiton are clear and currently an active possiblity for the Warriors.

You're all dancing around it because you don't know if a team's done it, is all I can gather from the mounting silliness of Gump. That's fine, we'll all move on and look into it ourselves. Thanks for trying to offer relevant insights.

[Three34]

Show me where the Warriors took on a 16th contract ever and then cut guaranteed salary before opening camp.

Or, more to the point of the question: has any team done this?

Lots of times. How about Portland giving Steve Francis $30 million not to play for them?

[Chris Cohan]

Didn't they waive him a la the recent Tinsley move by Indiana, then sign players?

The Warriors situation seems very clear.
No one has a serious answer for me, that's fine. Let's move on.

[killbuckner]

No one has an answer for you that you want to hear. You seem to be under the impression that because the Warriors owe Jermario Davidson 800k next season that they would under no circumstances make a move that they believe would improve their team. If you wish to believe this then obviously no one is going to stop you but there clearly isn't a CBA reason for it.

[Chris Cohan]

No, the CBA question was clear enough, which is why we're moving on now since no one's going to bother (any more than me) with the parameters of the Warriors current situation.
Including YOU.

So now that this is turning silly with the snark, we're dropping it, k?

[Three34]

If it makes you feel better, the Houston Rockets had the following roster at the end of September 2007:

Yao Ming (guaranteed)
Tracy McGrady (guaranteed)
Rafer Alston (guaranteed)
Shane Battier (guaranteed)
Aaron Brooks (guaranteed)
Bonzi Wells (guaranteed)
Mike James (guaranteed)
Justin Reed (guaranteed)
Steve Novak (guaranteed)
Luther Head (guaranteed)
Steve Francis (guaranteed)
Luis Scola (guaranteed)
Jackie Butler (guaranteed)
Kirk Snyder (guaranteed)
Chuck Hayes (guaranteed)
Bob Sura (partially guaranteed)
John Lucas (mostly guaranteed)
Mike Harris (partially guaranteed)


Then, on October 1st, they signed:

Dikembe Mutombo (guaranteed)
Carl Landry (unguaranteed)


That's 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-COUNT 'EM-20 PLAYERS, and 16 fully guaranteed contracts. But the presence of the first 18 players didn't stop the acquisitions of the latter two players, both of who made the team.

In the end, the Rockets waived Reed, Sura, Lucas, Harris and Butler, paying them a combined $5,473,000 to not play for them that year.

Happy now?

[FGump]

So now that this is turning silly with the snark, we're dropping it, k?

That's a good idea. See ya.

Believe it or not, no one here has an obligation to do your research for you. But people tend to help when you're nice and walk away when you aren't. I'm surprised Sham spent the time to share one such situation with you he knows ... I know of others, but was so put off by your repeated confrontational attitude when peeps here tried to educate you that I stopped caring whether you got info or not.

If you think you already know it all, why are you here? If you want help, your condescending tone is stifling. And if that doesn't accurately convey what you were intending, you need to know that's the sense we're getting on this end.

[Chris Cohan]

So now that this is turning silly with the snark, we're dropping it, k?

That's a good idea. See ya.

Believe it or not, no one here has an obligation to do your research for you. But people tend to help when you're nice and walk away when you aren't. I'm surprised Sham spent the time to share one such situation with you he knows ... I know of others, but was so put off by your repeated confrontational attitude when peeps here tried to educate you that I stopped caring whether you got info or not.

If you think you already know it all, why are you here? If you want help, your condescending tone is stifling. And if that doesn't accurately convey what you were intending, you need to know that's the sense we're getting on this end.

Believe it or not, you're the one pushing the tone more than anyone.
Take your own advice.