Sessions Update:Ramon signs T-Wolves OS (page 310 update)

[GrandAdmiralDan]

the longer negotiations go, the better for the buyer.

Not always. Like I mentioned, there are downsides to waiting too. There are not ONLY positives to waiting.

At a certain point the returns on further waiting diminish to a point where the risk starts to outweigh the benefit.

Does anyone else here NOT like the idea of the QO? Sure if Sessions signed a QO for cheap, the Bucks save a ton of money this year, but he no longer is a future asset for us. I'd prefer signing him to a 3-4 year deal at 4-5 million per, because then if he pans out, he has massive trade value being a good player on a really cheap deal. Or is simply a good value if we keep him.

Yes, I have mentioned in the past that I am not keen to have Sessions just take the QO rather than retain him on a multi-year contract.

If we extend a QO and he plays for that, I doubt there is any chance he re-signs in the offseason, when so many teams will have cap room, and only few will actually land the big fee agents. We would be limited to riding out his play for one year, or trying to trade him as a rental player for another team.

Also, trading him while he is on the QO is going to be very difficult. He'll not only be BYC for the duration of that QO, but we'd also require his consent to any trade. And if he gave his consent, his new team would only get non-bird rights on him, which limits that new teams options for re-signing him.

I do not view the QO as at all an ideal scenario for either the Bucks or Sessions.

Luckily, I think there is less than a 1% change he takes the QO.
At the very least, he'll be able to find a 2 year offer sheet so that he can bank a few million bucks. He hasn't earned enough money playing basketball to risk signing the QO which is just barely over $1 mil.

More importantly, I think when they drafted Holiday, they secured their PG of the future. That's why they're targeting a veteran - so they have a stopgap starter until Holiday is ready.

You don't think it is strange for you to make that argument, considering the Bucks used a significantly higher pick on our new PG, Jennings, and we already have a veteran "stopgap" on our roster, Luke Ridnour?

I definitely think the Bucks should retain Sessions, but isn't there a much stronger argument for why the Bucks should not want Ramon than there would be for why the Sixers wouldn't want Ramon? And the Sixers are theoretically more of a playoff contender than us too, aren't they?

[GrandAdmiralDan]

"His departure means the Sixers will likely turn to fourth-year guard Lou Williams to run the point. They made UCLA's Jrue Holiday their first-round pick and hope he can develop into their point guard of the future."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4354227

That could be the case, but to me that doesn't imply that is something the Sixers have necessarily actually decided. That to me looks like commentary on the matter from Chand Ford and.or Chris Sheridan.

Have you seen some of the things they have assumed the Bucks would "likely" do, not only in this offseason, but during last season, and last offseason?

[europa]

I've been waiting for someone to mention that GAD so no I don't. I believe there's a significant difference in my opinion. Sessions was already a Buck. He wasn't someone they were bringing in. I think there's a big difference between keeping a talented player you already have to team with a new PG as opposed to drafting a PG and then going out and making a financial commitment to another young PG.

More importantly, until we get a single report which indicates the Sixers aren't looking for a veteran or aren't prepared to go with Williams as the starter, then I'm not going to worry about them.

[Sigra]

We should offer 3/10. Take or leave

[blueedwards]

The Sixers want a veteran PG. If they can't get one, they reportedly are prepared to go with Lou Williams as the starting PG ahead of Holiday.

Even if it's true that the Sixers prefer a veteran point guard, it's not like they'd opt for Anthony Johnson (random name I threw out there as an example, doesn't matter if he's available) over Ramon Sessions. Having the attribute of being a veteran needs to be weighed against the talent a player possesses. Louis Williams would be a joke of a starting point guard, especially with their team composition. There's no Lebron, Roy, or Wade on the Sixers. They need a 1 who can run their team and maximize their athletes. Williams is a 6th man. I'll believe the Sixers are that stupid when I see it.

Anyways, that was just one example. There are other teams with needs at the position, and issues could arise as the offseason goes on, like GAD described.

But I also believe that if a team really wanted Sessions for the ML, they would've made an offer by now. If a team comes in for well under the ML, then the Bucks are in great shape to match it. So while I would like to see this resolved, I'm not concerned at the present time that waiting is going to put the Bucks in danger of losing Sessions. I think the market has pretty much evaporated for him and his chances to land a ML deal are close to being gone.

That's just a lot of I thinks and I believes without any real support.

We all know Dalembert is on the block. Think Philly would take Ridnour and Gadz for Sam? But Sam has that trade kicker. Not sure how we can make a move then. Someone needs to run the numbers. Might need a third team maybe.

[Bernman]

I'm talking about all of the reports we've received. From ESPN, from David Aldridge, from the Knicks media. I'm less inclined to trust Woelfel at this point because it seems to me he's getting all of his info from Wells, who badly needs to establish a market for his client. And nearly all of Woelfel's reports so far about Sessions have not come to fruition.

Aldridge said a hair below the MLE, or something to that effect. That's a plausible report considering the source, but that's as things stand at THIS juncture, and with his agent's unreasonable insistence on a long term contract. The desire to offer Ramon half the MLE was Hahn's, not something relayed from the Knicks. You sure didn't put any stock in a Hahn twitter when he was reporting the Knicks were interested, but you did when he just shared his opinion on what he thought the Knicks should do. The NY Post is a worthless tabloid.

As far as Hunt, we all know the J/S RARELY (if ever) speculates on contract numbers without firsthand info from the Bucks. Given that, it's safe to say $3M a year is a figure Hunt got from the Bucks. Whether the Bucks top it as several other reports have said they will if need be is the question.

It's important to distinguish Gardner from Hunt. Hunt semi regularly lays into the Bucks' organization, so naturally he wouldn't receive much information from the organization, and I don't recall the last time he shared any. Gardner is the one who receives information because he's their puppet, and simply relays what they tell him, and spins events.

And again with the Sixers, as I've said the reports are if they don't sign a veteran, they'll go with Lou Williams as the starting PG. This is one of those reports, from ESPN:

"His departure means the Sixers will likely turn to fourth-year guard Lou Williams to run the point. They made UCLA's Jrue Holiday their first-round pick and hope he can develop into their point guard of the future."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4354227

Fine, but that looks like conjecture, and if not, I just think that's another ploy, because it'd be suicide for this upcoming season.

[europa]

Bern, at this point I have no idea what to expect from the Knicks. We have two respected sources saying they won't make an offer, one source saying they MIGHT make an offer at half the ML and Woelfel being led around by the nose by Sessions' agent. Plus, there is a report saying Walsh is going to meet with Tinsley next week so it's very obvious the Knicks don't feel any sense of urgency to pursue Sessions.

As far as the J/S, everyone who covers the Bucks in some fashion gets their info from the team. There isn't a single independent thinker among them in my opinion.

[Wise1]

We should offer 3/10. Take or leave

The both of us would call that a fair deal. However, a good businessman will not overcommit a single nickle. Contrary to what GAD and Bernman are saying, the Bucks absolutely should wait until Sessions comes in at "their price". If their price is slightly over 3 mil per for 3 years, then I'd be inclined to agree with GAD and Bernman. However, neither Sessions nor the Bucks may be interested in signing for 3 mil per.

I suspect that the Bucks value Ersan Ilyasova more than Ramon Sessions. Well, they signed Ersan for 3 years and 7 million. What does our common sense tell us about what they'd likely want to commit to Ramon at this point?

Again, I think Ramon will be FORTUNATE to get the Ersan offer from the Bucks. If they do tender this offer, then Ramon should sign it immediately. His options are drying up substantially. I wager that the Sixers would bring Iverson back short term before they committed to Ramon on a multi-year deal. Holiday and Williams are the cheaper alternatives with just as much talent and potential as Sessions that I've mentioned all along.

[europa]

I don't view the Sixers as a threat just as I wasn't overly concerned about the Blazers once all the reports came in that they were looking for a veteran PG. I think Sessions' suitors are going to be the Bucks and maybe the Knicks. He seems to have soured on the Clippers. I don't think another team is going to come in with a ML offer at this point and as I said earlier, if a team comes in lower then Hammond is positioned to match it as he should. If the Knicks back out as two reports have indicated they will, then it's going to come down to Sessions taking what Hammond offers or the QO. And I think he would be making a huge mistake if he took the QO.

[Wise1]

Bern, at this point I have no idea what to expect from the Knicks. We have two respected sources saying they won't make an offer, one source saying they MIGHT make an offer at half the ML and Woelfel being led around by the nose by Sessions' agent. Plus, there is a report saying Walsh is going to meet with Tinsley next week so it's very obvious the Knicks don't feel any sense of urgency to pursue Sessions.

As far as the J/S, everyone who covers the Bucks in some fashion gets their info from the team. There isn't a single independent thinker among them in my opinion.

For what they are willing to pay, the Knicks know the Bucks are likely to match. They have options. A healthy and willing Tinsley is just as good or better than Ramon short term (the Knicks obviously want max flexibility for Lebron if he can be had). Allen Iverson is better than Ramon. Nate Robinson is just as good or better than Ramon in D'Antoni's system. A guy that they can draft next year could have just as much potential as Ramon.

I don't think any team in the league will invest in Ramon as their point guard of the future (full mle dollars or more) for the reasons I've put forth all along. He has two significant holes in his game: defense and lack of a perimeter game. Because of his flaws, Ramon is a backup waiting to happen for ANY competent GM. You don't invest the mle for backup talent. You just don't.

[Sigra]

We should offer 3/10. Take or leave

The both of us would call that a fair deal. However, a good businessman will not overcommit a single nickle. Contrary to what GAD and Bernman are saying, the Bucks absolutely should wait until Sessions comes in at "their price". If their price is slightly over 3 mil per for 3 years, then I'd be inclined to agree with GAD and Bernman. However, neither Sessions nor the Bucks may be interested in signing for 3 mil per.

I suspect that the Bucks value Ersan Ilyasova more than Ramon Sessions. Well, they signed Ersan for 3 years and 7 million. What does our common sense tell us about what they'd likely want to commit to Ramon at this point?

Again, I think Ramon will be FORTUNATE to get the Ersan offer from the Bucks. If they do tender this offer, then Ramon should sign it immediately. His options are drying up substantially. I wager that the Sixers would bring Iverson back short term before they committed to Ramon on a multi-year deal. Holiday and Williams are the cheaper alternatives with just as much talent and potential as Sessions that I've mentioned all along.

I agree with all of that. However, 3/10 is fine contract for backup PG with potential. Maybe we can get him for even less but we also have interest to speed up Ramon situation IMO. As soon as we re-sign Ramon we will know how much money we have left for one more free agent and then we can focus on that.

[europa]

I think there are a lot of factors going into why Sessions isn't getting a full ML offer. First and foremost, he's a RFA and RFA's simply do not change teams very often. That's not something that should be as easily dismissed as it appears to be.

In any event, I agree if the Knicks are considering half the ML it makes zero sense in my opinion for them to even make the offer. The Bucks would be crazy not match an offer in the $3M-$3.5M a year range. The Knicks might as well try and re-sign Nate for a year and see if they can hit on a PG next year.

[aboveAverage]

We should offer 3/10. Take or leave

The both of us would call that a fair deal. However, a good businessman will not overcommit a single nickle. Contrary to what GAD and Bernman are saying, the Bucks absolutely should wait until Sessions comes in at "their price". If their price is slightly over 3 mil per for 3 years, then I'd be inclined to agree with GAD and Bernman. However, neither Sessions nor the Bucks may be interested in signing for 3 mil per.

I suspect that the Bucks value Ersan Ilyasova more than Ramon Sessions. Well, they signed Ersan for 3 years and 7 million. What does our common sense tell us about what they'd likely want to commit to Ramon at this point?

Again, I think Ramon will be FORTUNATE to get the Ersan offer from the Bucks. If they do tender this offer, then Ramon should sign it immediately. His options are drying up substantially. I wager that the Sixers would bring Iverson back short term before they committed to Ramon on a multi-year deal. Holiday and Williams are the cheaper alternatives with just as much talent and potential as Sessions that I've mentioned all along.

I agree with all of that. However, 3/10 is fine contract for backup PG with potential. Maybe we can get him for even less but we also have interest to speed up Ramon situation IMO. As soon as we re-sign Ramon we will know how much money we have left for one more free agent and then we can focus on that.

That's one thing we can agree on. This has to be done soon. I'm sick of waiting, and it hurts the team as well.

[Wise1]

I don't view the Sixers as a threat just as I wasn't overly concerned about the Blazers once all the reports came in that they were looking for a veteran PG. I think Sessions' suitors are going to be the Bucks and maybe the Knicks. He seems to have soured on the Clippers. I don't think another team is going to come in with a ML offer at this point and as I said earlier, if a team comes in lower then Hammond is positioned to match it as he should. If the Knicks back out as two reports have indicated they will, then it's going to come down to Sessions taking what Hammond offers or the QO. And I think he would be making a huge mistake if he took the QO.

This is the cold hard reality. The Bucks have Sessions by the scrotum and his ass is going to walk wherever they lead him. Hopefully that's towards Ersan's deal. If they choose to release him from their grip, it'll be because they chose to. The Bucks can't lose here. Sessions is a luxury to this roster, not a necessity.

[europa]

This is the cold hard reality. The Bucks have Sessions by the scrotum and his ass is going to walk wherever they lead him. Hopefully that's towards Ersan's deal. If they choose to release him from their grip, it'll be because they chose to. The Bucks can't lose here. Sessions is a luxury to this roster, not a necessity.

I agree with about half of what you wrote. Bottom line, I agree the Bucks have Sessions by the balls right now. The Knicks are not showing any sense of urgency and that's his best shot to start. That's why I'd like to see Hammond make an offer now to see if he can get this done (maybe he has and maybe Wells has turned him down; I don't know). The market has almost entirely gone away for Sessions, so taking a short-term deal from the Bucks and putting this to bed is the smart move to make in my opinion. If the Knicks are talking a lowball offer like last night's report indicates might occur (emphasis on the word "might") then he's likely going to stay with the Bucks anyway. Why not see if a deal can be done with Milwaukee now and put an end to it.

[Wise1]

This is the cold hard reality. The Bucks have Sessions by the scrotum and his ass is going to walk wherever they lead him. Hopefully that's towards Ersan's deal. If they choose to release him from their grip, it'll be because they chose to. The Bucks can't lose here. Sessions is a luxury to this roster, not a necessity.

I agree with about half of what you wrote. Bottom line, I agree the Bucks have Sessions by the balls right now. The Knicks are not showing any sense of urgency and that's his best shot to start. That's why I'd like to see Hammond make an offer now to see if he can get this done (maybe he has and maybe Wells has turned him down; I don't know). The market has almost entirely gone away for Sessions, so taking a short-term deal from the Bucks and putting this to bed is the smart move to make in my opinion. If the Knicks are talking a lowball offer like last night's report indicates might occur (emphasis on the word "might") then he's likely going to stay with the Bucks anyway. Why not see if a deal can be done with Milwaukee now and put an end to it.

Right. Offer him the Ersan deal or slightly less and say take it or leave it. That's how I would negotiate in this circumstance. However I do think that it's still to early to offer him the Ersan deal and establish his floor. Leave him outside a little longer. He'll eventually get hungry and his agent may come to the Bucks with something that they find acceptable.

[trwi7]

the Bucks have Sessions by the balls right now.

Man, Kohl really is an old perv.

[Sigra]

Offer him the Ersan deal or slightly less

Right

I think you are now just making fun of all this people (90% of this board) who were all "oh my God we have to re-sign Sessions because he is bargain for MLE and if not then I am done with Hammond"

And yes it is funny

[Dobber-16]

the Bucks have Sessions by the balls right now.

Man, Kohl really is an old perv.

[BucksRUS]

There are a few other vetern PGs available. Jason Williams is available as is CJ Watson. Philly has already offer Watson a contract, but it hasn't been accepted.