Tom Moore 2.0

[bebopdeluxe]

"That's hindsight. It's easy to say after the fact."

How f*cking weak is that?

I expect the general manager of my team to look at all contingencies and assess all probabilities. When Elton Brand went down for the season on February 5th, Ed Stefanski had to assess the probability that Andre Miller was going to be re-signed, and if that probability was low enough, he had to be moved for anything of value.

ANYTHING.

Expirings. A deep reserve big or PG with potential (think Ratliff with DET or Snow with SEA). A weekend at Mount Airy Lodge. ANYTHING.

They decided to make a push for the playoffs? Are you kidding me? What - did they think they were going to the Finals? Once Brand was out (and Speights and Lou got squeezed), they were - in essence - the same team that lost in the 1st round the prior year...what could have possibly made them think that it was worth delaying the development of their young assets (including giving consistent rotation time to the only PG on the roster who was signed for 2009-10). They went back to the EXACT SAME STYLE that got them bounced in the 1st round the prior year...answered ZERO questions about whether Lou can play PG, whether Iggy at the 2 and Thad at the 3 would work...and they won exactly ONE MORE GAME.

Way to go, Ed. Did the Roberts boys send you a cheesecake for the 3 home gates they got in the playoffs?

And here's the thing - they could have played the young guys more...played guys in their natural positions...continued to focus on the long-term development of their assets...and STILL have gotten a couple of home playoff gates....but we'll never know, will we?

And I would like to have Stefanski say what he EXPECTED Miller to ask for this off-season? Was 3/30 a surprise, Ed? ("No...I think that 1 year at the MLE should get it done...") I would certainly hope that - in discussions before the deadline - the Sixers "brain trust" (I use that term EXTREMELY loosely) had to have gone through various scenario analysis of what they would do if Miller asked for, say, 3/30...and if the answer then was NO, then there is ZERO excuse for not trading him...unless the plan was always to just let him walk.

(naaahhh...they wouldn't have been thinking THAT...would they?)

Again - it is INCREDIBLY irresponsible of Ed Stefanski to have left this franchise so unprepared this season at PG...a season where you are paying Elton Brand - what - $15+ million? If 1) you KNOW that Brand is coming back (and Iggy will be playing the 2 and Thad is playing the 3), and 2) you know that there is a reaasonable chance that Andre Miller is not going to be back, who the f*ck cares about what they do in the '09 playoffs? Huh? It is about doing EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER to develop the roster to be ready to compete when Brand comes back healthy in the fall of 2009....and unless you REALLY thought that the Sixers (all 41-41 of them) were going to push the Cavs and Lakers for a title, the focus had to be giving this team the best chance to succeed once "Mr. PhillyMAX" is back on the court. As it stands now, our PG rotation is a joke and we STILL don't know if Iggy/Thad are the 2/3 of the future.

The more Stefanski opens his mouth, the more I detest his hiring.

[freshie2]

Could be that expectations will drop with young point guards and no Miller. That could be a good thing for Jordan and Stefanski, but will, in conjunction with the economy, cause a decrease in attendance.

I don't think any expectations for improvement should have been centered around Miller's return, but around any growth from Iguodala and Young. They need to take big steps forward for this franchise to advance, and that wouldn't have been any different had they re-signed Miller.

One thing that is interesting and giving me some hope in the short term is the notion that Brand/Miller didn't work well together b/c Miller wasn't a great pick/roll/pop player, and that is something that Brand preferred. One area where I really liked Lou (particularly with Speights) was in the pick and roll game...maybe with more time, this is an area where Lou and Brand will mesh/excel.

I still think they are a 4-7 seed in the east, and they would have been projected in the same range with Miller. In a year or two, I think Jrue becomes a high end PG, and this team moves into the 2-5 range. It is optimistic, but I like the young pieces this team has in place.

[radrmd216]

Bebop, its very hard to pick up a pattern and make sense of the Sixers moves, but I think they kept Miller to make money. Just like they traded for Miller so they could stay relevent and field a decent team, which was a horrible move at the time and is probably even looking back on it now.

It seems the Sixers are very worried about money right now since the team is a business and they probably aren't generating a lot of revenue if any. So back at the deadline they thought what they could get for Miller wasn't worth it, becuase they might have thought they could have gotten the 4 seed and possibly to te second round. With those additional 4 homes games they might have been able to make about $12 million. if that was there thinking they were way to optimistic. Either way the 08-09 and 09-10 seaons don;t matter to much from a winning standpoint since the team is so young.

I have no idea what the front office was thinking, but I'm trying to make a sense of wahts going on with whats has been said and past actions. I think a lot of of the moves that have been made have been pretty bad and I don;t agree with the at all. All of the Sixers problems stem from acquiring Miller in the Iverson trade, that doesn't take away from what Milelr did for the Sixers but it was a bad move to trade for him

[bebopdeluxe]

radrmd:

First of all, I don't know where you are getting a number like $12 million...assuming 15,000 seats sold at an average price of, say, $60 a seat (prices are high, but they're not Flyers-high), that is $900K in ticket revenue per playoff game. Even with incidentals, they are going to have to play a LOT of hiome playoff games to make $12 million. I don't dispute your point - they pushed for the playoffs for the $$$ - but if financial issues are at the heart of most of the Sixers decisions right now (even before the updated cap/tax numbers were released), if Stefanski could deduce (as an intelligent GM should) that Miller was going to ask for 3/30, then - given the Sixers financial situation - you have to assume that they were not going to re-sign him - ESPECIALLY if he knew that he might be bringing Jordan in to install the Princeton offense...an offense that certainly does not play to Miller's strengths.

(but, of course Stefanski had NO idea before the season ended that he would be hiring Jordan and getting that SWEET $2 million subsidy from the Wiz...right?)

Unless the master plan all along once Brand got hurt was 1) screw player development, we need playoff ticket revenues; 2) Jordan is going to be the next coach and 3) Miller will have too high a price tag and he's not right for the PO...so...

Play Miller 37 minutes a game...and then after he gets you into the playoffs (and gets you the playoff ticket revenues), you kick his azz out of town;

The heck with Iggy at the 2 and Thad at the 3...we need to WIN GAMES NOW;

Don't worry about playing Lou Williams at the point...because we've got Andre Miller right now, and even if he walks...well...

We'll draft a guy who played one year in college - at SG - and make him the PG of the future...

So...to sum up...we sacrifice roster development for a couple million of playoff revenues...we simply let our PG walk (and don't spend his salary to replace him)...we will have WITHOUT QUESTION the most inexperienced PG rotation on the freaking PLANET...after a season of tossing away player development to make the playoffs after our best player is out for the season, we are now ALL ABOUT developing the kids now that our big $$$ PF is back playing...

And this guy - Stefanski - he's supposed to be GOOD?

Ummmm....whatever you say.

[tk76]

"That's hindsight. It's easy to say after the fact."

How f*cking weak is that?...

...ANYTHING.

Expirings. A deep reserve big or PG with potential (think Ratliff with DET or Snow with SEA). A weekend at Mount Airy Lodge. ANYTHING.
...

Man, soundlike you are about to implode. Reminds me of Howard Dean (Byahhhhh!!!... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiPXoIt3k-o )

Maybe a nice weekend at Beautiful Mount Airy Lodge is in order. We don't want any heart attacks on the Sixers board

[bebopdeluxe]

Naaahhh, I'm cool, tk. The Philles are beasting and I got my Eagles season tickets in the mail. Life is good.

I just don't like it when - as a fan - I feel like I am getting played. The Phillies did that to us for YEARS...but not anymore, which is why they are so loved right now.

(what an interesting concept - huh?)

I think that, ever since the Pat Croce/Larry Brown days, Sixers fans are getting PLAYED by Comcast and Ed Snider...they probably use the excuse that - "hey, nobody comes to the games, so why should we spend the $$$?"

Well...I wonder how the turnstiles were clicking when Croce and Brown were here?

Straight talk. Take responsibility...and admit when you f*ck up (I remenber the meeting that Croce had with season-ticket holders midway through his first season...things changed in a HURRY). Invest in your roster and make smart decisions...and - as the Phillies will tell you - fans will notice. They certainly did in 2000-01 (remember all the Sixers flags on cars in EVERY NEIGHBORHOOD in the Philadelphia metropolitan area?). The current ownership and Stefanski are taking the credibility and goodwill between the Sixers organization and its fan-base to subterranean levels...and with what is happening with the cap and the tax (and with the amount of $$$ commited to Iggy and Brand), the outlook is not promising, bro...

That is a shame. The young talent on this team does not deserve what Comcast, Ed Snider and Ed Stefanski are doing to it. Those guys needed to have more faith in this roster when Brand went down - as opposed to doing a Joe Smith redux for a few playoff bucks. If they knew all along that they probably weren't going to re-sign Miller, they needed to put Lou Williams in a better position than this - either by playing him more at the point last season or bringing in smoebody legit who could help shoulder the load.

I think Sixers fans are being played. I think Stefanski is a JOKE of a GM.

But they Phils rock and Eagles training camp starts later today...so a boatload of potential Sixers fans are just going to collectively say "f*ck the Sixers...they don't want to spend the money...so why should I?" And Ed Snider is going to rip Philly fans for not coming out and supporting the Sixers...

Count on it.

[radrmd216]

I know as a fan people are saying were messed with player development for a some extra money, but no seems to realize owning a sports franchise is a business. People need to read thng written and said by Warren Buffet and otehr business leadres to realize how business works. Sports is a very unique business structure, but some things can be taken from otehr business fields.

I thought i read $3 million as the hoem playoff game revenue for a bigger market team, but that does seem high. he are some links talking about NBA income and what the Jazz made and what the Lakers made.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... n25352408/
http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?p=2567653
http://nbahoopsonline.com/Articles/2007 ... aring.html

Bebop, I know your very frustrated, but not playing people out of position and rewarding bad haibits might actually have been be good. I think players need to improve their skills and then switching to a differnt position comes lot easier. Also Speighs was good in spurts, but giving giving hima lot of minutes might have rewarded bad habits. The Sixers were going to win much last season adn they aren't going to win much this season. All the young guys still got to go to practice everyday, so its hard to say if not playing them last year really impedes their development.

[76STholder]

[quote="bebopdeluxe"]radrmd:

First of all, I don't know where you are getting a number like $12 million...assuming 15,000 seats sold at an average price of, say, $60 a seat (prices are high, but they're not Flyers-high), that is $900K in ticket revenue per playoff game. Even with incidentals, they are going to have to play a LOT of hiome playoff games to make $12 million.

Not that this matters, but your numbers are way out of line. The lowest priced tickets for the playoffs were $20/seat and I would say average price per seat around $125 for 1st round and $175-200 for the 2nd round. Don't think it would be the 12 million but it was definitely in the 2-3 mill range per game.

[bebopdeluxe]

76STholder -

As a partial season ticket-holder in the high-rent district, I can tell you that your numbers for ticket prices are high.

[radrmd216]

Judging from things posted a team like the Jazz make about $1 in revenue for a home playoff game and a team like the Lakers make $4 million per home playoff game. i would assume the Sixers make around $2-2.5 million in revenue.

Tom, do you know how much the Sixers made in revenue this past playoff run and also how much profit.

[bebopdeluxe]

radrmd:

I have heard a lot of talk about Speights and his "bad habits", but two things: 1) his numbers playing with the starters was a lot better than his numbers when he was out there with the reserves, and 2) he would have - in essence - taken Willie Green's place in the starting lineup...and when his minutes were cut back, Evans got a bunch of those minutes.

Willie Green. Reggie Evans.

Given the alternatives, I would have taken a chance that the "bad habits" would have gotten better.

[radrmd216]

If it was up to me I would have never traded for miller, got a couple very high draft picks, and hired a coach that was a good teacher. maybe Mo was a good coach for a young team just not for a team trying to compete. I just think the iverson and trade all the events past that has been bad. The Sixers had to go into rebuild mode and they didn't and now the Sixers are stuck for the next few years. We have to hope that the young players the Sixers have can be part of a really good team.

[tk76]

Yep, they tried to get away with 2 shortcuts with the acquisition of Miller/Smith and then the Brand signing.

They have done well maximizing talent through the draft, but those stopgap shortcuts might get them trapped in medicrity for a ong time. Either management or the penny pinchers refused to let the team endure real pain, but it might bite them in the end.

As Bebop said in a roundabout way, Philly fans reward you at the gates if you are a winner (unless you are the Eagles or Flyers, and then the fans come out win or lose.)

[radrmd216]

Comcast probably tought they could still sell about the same amount of tickets as when Iverson was here so they got veterns instead of youth or cap space. It wold have been better both for the team and financially if the Sixers just got a couple really high lottery picks in 07 and 08. They could have made much lower expectations and a much easier time markeing a young u and coming team. The only thing that makes the Iverson trade completely horribl is that the Sixers got a top 5 talent in Thad.

[youngcrev]

Based on the market for Miller this offseason, I doubt they could of gotten more than another expiring and a late first for him. Personally, I'll take that playoff experience for our young guys (and getting to watch them give the Magic a scare) over a late 1st all day, everyday.

[ProcessDoctor]

I'm 10 times more worried about our C situation than our PG situation (or any other position) right now. Dalembert is an athletic C, but has a low IQ. This will not win us games. Fine, he can average 8, 8, and 2 but when he takes iffy shots on offense, goal-tends/silly fouls on defense, and complains in the locker room, there is really no reason to keep him around. I would kill for any trade involving Dalembert for a higher IQ center (who can shoot). Tinsley, Carney, Marshall, a vet C, and finally a Dalembert trade would make this off-season ok with me.

PG: Williams/Tinsley/Holiday
SG: Iguodala/Carney/Green
SF: Young/Kapono
PF: Brand/Speights/Marshall
C: Trade/Smith/Vet

[ryst]

bbop , i agree with you 100%

stefanski is a joke and needs to ger fired
he has nothing but fail since he got here.
many people forget but one of the first things he did was resigning Mo for a contract extension and fire him a few months later.
i never heard of a new GM who hire a coach and fire him 3 months later ,it all went down hill from there

keep on fighting the good fight...good to know i am not by myself.

[freshie2]

Comcast probably tought they could still sell about the same amount of tickets as when Iverson was here so they got veterns instead of youth or cap space. It wold have been better both for the team and financially if the Sixers just got a couple really high lottery picks in 07 and 08. They could have made much lower expectations and a much easier time markeing a young u and coming team. The only thing that makes the Iverson trade completely horribl is that the Sixers got a top 5 talent in Thad.

Not sure on these points...the Sixers got expiring deals, draft picks, and Miller for Iverson. Essentially that is Miller + cap space and young players (draft picks) for Iverson.

You wanted high lottery picks in 07-08, yet are stating that Thad was a top 5 talent...isn't that kind of the same thing??

The only thing that made the Iverson trade horrible is that it happened about 5 years too late...the current off season is showing how limited the market is for him, but a younger Iverson probably would have given you more in return.

[corwin]

I think Sixers fans are being played. .

Just read the last two pages & I want to agree with you on this. First, I was disgusted with the way that the Eddie Jordan hire went down. That's not to say that I think he's a bad coach (he would not have been my choice though). All that talk about considering Thibideau, Ford, Rambis, etc. was pure BS. The fact that Van Gundy, Avery Johnson, & Collins didn't interview tells me that they knew Jordan was a done deal once he took less money. The fans however were supposed to believe that it was an open hire.

Second, the Miller fiasco was entirely predictable. Do you recall how the insiders were talking about management offering 2 years @ 16 million before the 2010 projected cap numbers came in? When they came in the offer shifted to a one year deal. All you have to do is look at the team's payroll. They were never going to offer Miller a 2nd year @ 8 million unless the cap went up since that would have put them over the LT in 2010 & this team is not paying the LT or sacrificing the shared revenue that they get by being under the cap. Stefanski is a money guy. He gradated from Wharton. How in anyone's mind could someone with that background not have anticipated a drop in revenues during a recession?

It's time for openness and honesty. No money for a PG, fine. Go with the Lou/Jrue show but bring in a back-up that will can actually play & generate some interest (even if a successful D-Leaguer). Need to bring in fans by generating some offense. Fine, but bring in a defensive minded assistant, & not Jordan's buddy O'Koren & Lynam when the team hasn't been able to defend the perimeter for some time. Need to sign end-of-the-bench players to the vet's minimum due to 2010 LT concerns. Fine but acknowledge that we're getting left-overs. This is not trending well. I hope the team exceeds expectations & is better than last year but I have my doubts.

[tk76]

You''l never see that type of "honesty" from a professional sports team.