Jazz notes from USA mini-camp

[schneiderjazz]

Love dropped 24/15 on the Jazz frontcourt last year and grabbed a ridiculous amount of offensive boards. This should be no surprise. The guy is a lot better than he gets credit for, like many already suggested. I wouldn't be surprised if he's putting up something like 17/11 this year.
Red, I don't think anyone here will try to argue with you that Sap is as good as Boozer when Boozer is on top of his game. But Sap at 8 million per year is a lot better than Boozer at 14 or even more, especially when Boozer is injured half the time.
I agree with you that Sap shouldn't get a free pass whenever he gets outworked though. If he starts getting lazy after getting paid, I'll be really pissed off.

[polskikrol3]

Did anybody here actually go see the game? how about any of the 3 days of practices before? Im guessing the answer is not many if any. This means nothing. It says nothing of how the practices went or who outplayed who there. It was a scrimmage game people, time to calm down.

We know what we are gonna get with Millsap this year cuz we've seen it the last 3 years. He is a 15 ppg, 10 rpg a guy. Trust when i say when the season actually happens and the Jazz are 10 games up on Love and the T-Wolves within 2 months all this "MIllsap got outplayed by Love" BS will be even more stupid than it is now. Its a team game people.

Plus this has no lasting effect on the games we actually care about.

[red4hf]

No one doubts we we're going to be better than the T-Wolves......

That doesn't mean we are going to be better with Millsap than Boozer...... And I don't doubt that MIllsap is going to average good numbers, what also matters is what numbers he gives up to opposing players.......

I hope I'm wrong, I really hope I'm wrong, and I'll admit if I am.......

Can't wait for the season to start.......

[erudite23]

This isn't an "I hate Paul Millsap" rant....... I like Millsap....... This isn't a "Kevin Love sucks" rant....... I like Kevin Love, wish we had him on our roster........ But anyone who doesn't see that the team is going to be worse with Millsap as starting PF, and possible seriously worse, just sin't looking at the facts....... If Boozer/Okur frontcourt was not really good, imagine what (smaller, less talented) Boozer/Okur froncourt is ging to be like....... So, let's be honest, the Jazz are making a financial decision with Millsap/Boozer not a basketball one.......

Good. I agree that losing Boozer makes us a worse team. This is something that I've been jumping on the table screaming about all offseason while many on this board have blithely pimped their "Get Rid of Boozer" t-shirts and propoganda. I do think losing him makes us a less dangerous and ultimately less competitive team.

However, in this league you are forced to work within your means. The Jazz max out at about 70m in salary. Can they afford more for a year or two? Yeah. Not annually, though. Bottom line is that, largely because of AK's mammoth deal, we just can't afford to have Boozer AND Okur at fair market value. Add in Boozer's health issues and his status as a lightning rod for criticism and fan displeasure and it becomes easy to see why they are making the decision they are making.

It isn't misrepresenting, however, to say that Millsap could be as good as Boozer. As a starter he put up comparable numbers to what Boozer posted in his first season starting in the NBA (though Boozer was a year younger, iirc, maybe even two). He will likely never be quite the devastating offensive force that Boozer is, nor is it very likely that he is as good on the defensive boards as #5 was either. But on the offensive boards, in transition, and defensively he could make up for all of that. I am not saying he will or won't, but he could.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if you guys ever pay attention to anything outside of the state of Utah.

I don't live in Utah, have never been to Utah, and don't follow anything in Utah besides the Jazz...... And I see plenty of other teams living in NY.......

Then I wasn't talking to you.

Apparently, though, you still have a problem with recognizing young stars BEFORE they are considered to be such by the layman.

Case in point:

Kevin Love is already as good or better a player than David West, LaMarcus Aldridge

No he's not, I like Kevin Love, but that's ridiculous........

Uh, yes he is. Or at least on the same level, and the fact you think that it's "ridiculous" is enough to clinch any doubt about your level of confusion.

What do you want from your PF? Pretty simple. First you want a player that is tough around the hoop. This is usually manifested by rebounding, man-to-man post play, and help defense.

Rebounding: Love destroys both. His rebound rate of 21.0 (3rd overall in NBA, phenomenal for anyone, btw, but particularly so for a white boy without hops who is also a rookie) destroys the 13.1 (92nd) and 12.5 (102nd) rates of West and Aldridge respectively.

Man-to-man post play: Love is a beast on the block. His physical strength sets him apart from most NBA players, and his ability to use his body to move players out of position defensively while also getting position on offense is special. Aldridge is nearly a non-entity in the post, as he hangs out on the perimeter offensively and jacks Js while being a well known cream puff defensively. West, meanwhile has almost zero in the way of a post game, though he has an ok hook shot. He, too, gets most of his offense from perimeter Js created from another player drawing and kicking. Defensively he is much better than LMA, but still not much in the way of a disruptor.

Help defense: Love's weakness. His slow feet and lack of explosiveness will not let him be much of a factor here, while Aldridge is a pretty good shot blocker, yet lacks the toughness to make much of an impact and West is merely OK.

Overall, I'd certainly give Love the edge from that perspective. He also is a better screener than either one of those players, and has as good a jumper as them (you will see it come out more as his career progresses). He is also a vastly better passer. By the numbers, they are roughly equal as players as of last season (from 18.39 to 19.11 they are all within 3/4 a point of PER of one another) and that is before the coming 2nd year jump from Kevin Love.

Love is a good player, has the potential to be an above average player, but he's not a great player and is not going to be....... My point is, and continues to be, if Love outplays Millsap we're in trouble as far as the Power Forward sport for the next 4 years.......

Everyone who is saying otherwise, just has rose-colored glasses on....... Like I said it's amazing how people can keep excusing things when it comes to certain players.......

Are we expecting Millsap to be great? Love could be an All-Star, very very easily (depends mostly on if he plays on a good team or not). Millsap could be too. If Millsap is slightly outplayed by an All-Star, I will be just fine with that. No one is making excuses. You are undervaluing a really, really effing good young player because you aren't paying enough attention to know how good he is. He was a better rebounder at the age of 20 than Dwight freaking Howard for **** 's sake.

He "has the potential to become an above average player"? He was an above average player last season!

My issue with your sentiments are two fold here: 1) you are undervaluing Love and 2) you are suggesting that Millsap should be held to "great player" standard. No one here is saying he is a great player, or will be. He just needs to be good. If what you're saying is "Millsap has to be a great player or we will go backwards as a team and not even have a chance to sniff a championship" then I agree. But there's nothing we can do about that. Millsap is what he is. Do we want him at 8m a year or not? To me, that's not even a question. He's worth it and we need what he brings to the table. End of discussion. Him being Boozer or being "great" is not in it. He is what he is. I like that. It probably won't be enough, though, in which case we need to make other moves to get where we want to be.

[red4hf]

It isn't misrepresenting, however, to say that Millsap could be as good as Boozer. As a starter he put up comparable numbers to what Boozer posted in his first season starting in the NBA (though Boozer was a year younger, iirc, maybe even two). He will likely never be quite the devastating offensive force that Boozer is, nor is it very likely that he is as good on the defensive boards as #5 was either. But on the offensive boards, in transition, and defensively he could make up for all of that. I am not saying he will or won't, but he could.

Yes, he could...... And Ronnie Brewer could turn into the next Scottie Pippen, Kirilenko could return to his old ways, Koufos could bcome another Okur on offense and Mark Eaton on defense and CJ Miles could become Michael Redd....... All of those things could happen, but probably not likely...... Millsap is not a much better defensive player than Boozer, yes he gets more blocks and steals, but think why? As a back up, you know you can go out on the floor and play as hard as you want, doesn't matter if you pick up a couple of fouls, you're not there to play 35-40 minutes....... That's not the only reason, obviously, but that's a big part of it.......

That changes when you're a starter and the team depends on you to be out there for 35-40 minutes EVERY night...... You can't play the same way you did as an energy backup.......

Millsap is just not going to play with the same reckless abandon as he did when he was coming off the bench...... And that's going to descrease his effectiveness, unfortunately, and going to ost the Jazz.......

Then I wasn't talking to you

Who were you talking to then?

Overall, I'd certainly give Love the edge from that perspective. He also is a better screener than either one of those players, and has as good a jumper as them (you will see it come out more as his career progresses). He is also a vastly better passer. By the numbers, they are roughly equal as players as of last season (from 18.39 to 19.11 they are all within 3/4 a point of PER of one another) and that is before the coming 2nd year jump from Kevin Love.

Rebounding is not the only way to judge a Power Forward...... Both West and Aldridge are much further offensively than Love.......

We'll see next year, Love is going to be a solid player, he won't be on either West's or Aldridge's level......

. He was a better rebounder at the age of 20 than Dwight freaking Howard for **** 's sake.

Playing with who, against who, in games that mean what? You're talking about numbers like they exist in a vaccum....... A player can grab a lot of rebounds and have an off-the-chart rate....... But it doesn't mean anything if he's the only big guy for the team on the floor at the time, playing against second units in meaningless games....... Statistics have their place, but they are not the end all of all things........

Both Aldridge and West put up their numbers in games that mean something, on good teams....... Again, I'm not saying their future Hall of Famers while Love is a scrub....... But he's clearly not on their level, no matter what his rebounding rate says.......

1) you are undervaluing Love

Frankly, I think I have Love pegged just about right.......

2) you are suggesting that Millsap should be held to "great player" standard.

Is Love already a "great player"? I'm pretty sure that would be news to just about everyone in the World.......

Millsap is what he is. Do we want him at 8m a year or not? To me, that's not even a question. He's worth it and we need what he brings to the table.

I'd love to have Millsap on the team, but not as our starting PF....... As a 2nd round pick he was a huge bargain, unfortunately at 4 years $32 mil we overpayed for him........ That's my point......

[ColdBlue]

Sap has upside, but his offense is nowhere near Booze. Vice versa on defense.

Our offense is going to have to come from elsewhere next season.

[jazzed77]

No one doubts we we're going to be better than the T-Wolves......

That doesn't mean we are going to be better with Millsap than Boozer...... And I don't doubt that MIllsap is going to average good numbers, what also matters is what numbers he gives up to opposing players.......
I hope I'm wrong, I really hope I'm wrong, and I'll admit if I am.......

Can't wait for the season to start.......

it's not ike Boozer was shutting anyone down....

[HammerDunk]

You guys are so quick to forget that the most average PFs in the league looked like All-Stars when they came to play Booz. Sap may play worse against a handful of guys in the league, but he will also play better against a handful of guys in the league.

[red4hf]

No one doubts we we're going to be better than the T-Wolves......

That doesn't mean we are going to be better with Millsap than Boozer...... And I don't doubt that MIllsap is going to average good numbers, what also matters is what numbers he gives up to opposing players.......
I hope I'm wrong, I really hope I'm wrong, and I'll admit if I am.......

Can't wait for the season to start.......

it's not ike Boozer was shutting anyone down....

Absolutely true, but if Millsap turns out to be as bad defefensively, and we know he's going to be worse offensively, that means the Jazz are worse off, doesn't it........

[LjJazzman]

Its a HELL of a lot easier for the rest of the team to pick up the slack offensively then it is defensively. Even if he averages 8 less points then boozer he probably saves us at least that on the offensive end, also two starters can pretty easily pick up their scoring average by a few points.

[SeattleJazzFan]

Its a HELL of a lot easier for the rest of the team to pick up the slack offensively then it is defensively. Even if he averages 8 less points then boozer he probably saves us at least that on the offensive end, also two starters can pretty easily pick up their scoring average by a few points.

This is right and was proven last season. The Jazz actually averaged more ppg last year when Boozer was out than they did over the course of the season.

[red4hf]

Its a HELL of a lot easier for the rest of the team to pick up the slack offensively then it is defensively. Even if he averages 8 less points then boozer he probably saves us at least that on the offensive end, also two starters can pretty easily pick up their scoring average by a few points.

And what was our record in those games?

[StocktonShorts]

Jazz were 22-15 (.594) with Boozer last year, 26-19 (.578) without.

[erudite23]

Its a HELL of a lot easier for the rest of the team to pick up the slack offensively then it is defensively. Even if he averages 8 less points then boozer he probably saves us at least that on the offensive end, also two starters can pretty easily pick up their scoring average by a few points.

This is right and was proven last season. The Jazz actually averaged more ppg last year when Boozer was out than they did over the course of the season.

That would be due to the fact that Boozer was horrible offensively when he came back.

If you want a comparison, look at 07-08 and compare that to last year when Boozer was out.

[jazzed77]

Its a HELL of a lot easier for the rest of the team to pick up the slack offensively then it is defensively. Even if he averages 8 less points then boozer he probably saves us at least that on the offensive end, also two starters can pretty easily pick up their scoring average by a few points.

This is right and was proven last season. The Jazz actually averaged more ppg last year when Boozer was out than they did over the course of the season.

That would be due to the fact that Boozer was horrible offensively when he came back.

If you want a comparison, look at 07-08 and compare that to last year when Boozer was out.

so why take into consideration Boozer sucking it up whn he came back and not considr how bad Deron was for the first month or 2 when he retured from his injury...I'd say his play or lack of had at least if not more effct on both the team's offense and record

[drivewayball]

The players that should be compared are Love and Okur ... who play the same position for their teams. Millsap should be compared with Ryan Gomes or somebody like that. Neither Okur nor Millsap can be compared with Al Jefferson. Leave that comparison to Boozer. Love as a rookie was better than Okur as a six or seven year vet. Hopefully, Millsap is better than Gomes.

[erudite23]

This is right and was proven last season. The Jazz actually averaged more ppg last year when Boozer was out than they did over the course of the season.

That would be due to the fact that Boozer was horrible offensively when he came back.

If you want a comparison, look at 07-08 and compare that to last year when Boozer was out.

so why take into consideration Boozer sucking it up whn he came back and not considr how bad Deron was for the first month or 2 when he retured from his injury...I'd say his play or lack of had at least if not more effct on both the team's offense and record

I never said not to take Deron's injury into effect. Take the Jazz during the late January through early-mid March in 09 and compare them to the year before if you want to get an idea of how good they were with a healthy Boozer versus without him at all. Last season was not a good barometer for making that comparison, because Boozer actually hurt us after he came back, as he was a below average scorer, a horrible defender (as opposed to mediocre when healthy) and a turnover machine.