OT: Officer Crowley

[Andrew McCeltic]

Don't hijack this thread with your "deign" and "found lacking", it's irritating

Are ryaning and x34truth the same person?

I think 'white privilege' is real enough but the story you spin is a little too tidy

The idea that there are cycles of poverty, crime, drugs, broken families is real, but is it helpful to frame that problem and its solutions in terms of race, at this point?

[ryaningf]

Don't hijack this thread with your "deign" and "found lacking", it's irritating

Are ryaning and x34truth the same person?

I think 'white privilege' is real enough but the story you spin is a little too tidy

The idea that there are cycles of poverty, crime, drugs, broken families is real, but is it helpful to frame that problem and its solutions in terms of race, at this point?

Whateva, andy582. Don't accuse me of hijacking a thread and then ask me a question in the next breath. That's irritating. I weighed in with my viewpoint, and was engaged in conversation. That's what we're here for after all.

I'm not sure how helpful it is or it isn't at this point in time to frame the problem and its solution in terms of race--as opposed to poverty, crime, drugs, broken families, and all the other things in the world that act upon people and make them act the way they act. But, in fully understanding the case at hand, and the differing reactions and allegations of fault that have been made in that case, the race factor plays an integral role, especially as it relates to debate over the appropriateness of Gates' reaction--and it was in that vein that I personally interjected the concept of white privilege into the proceedings...

[GuyClinch]

My god. Way to read Outliers wrong.

1) Its not the "rage" in social circles - it's a rehash of some interesting research that was already done.

2) Its hardly an "attack" on this "white privilege." Its about finding factors that lead to EXTRAORDINARY success like that of Bill Gates or Professional Hockey players and so on.. Guys like Tiger Woods had unusual opportunities as well. Its pretty much non-racial.

3) The overall point that you need extraordinary circumstances as well as sufficient talent to be extraordinary is valid. But its also quite obvious.. It's the 'rage" LMAO. What are you his agent?


Pete

[x34truth34x]

My god. Way to read Outliers wrong.

1) Its not the "rage" in social circles - it's a rehash of some interesting research that was already done.

2) Its hardly an "attack" on this "white privilege." Its about finding factors that lead to EXTRAORDINARY success like that of Bill Gates or Professional Hockey players and so on.. Guys like Tiger Woods had unusual opportunities as well. Its pretty much non-racial.

3) The overall point that you need extraordinary circumstances as well as sufficient talent to be extraordinary is valid. But its also quite obvious.. It's the 'rage" LMAO. What are you his agent?


Pete

Oh I'm sorry would you prefer me to say that it is very popular with sociologists across the country? Isn't peer review the most important method of reviewing a piece of work?

You could probably look at the cycle of poverty as more of a class issue than a race issue although you would be stupid not to notice the profound discrepancy between races and the classes they fall in.

Pretending a black person doesn't face significantly more obstacles in life than a white person is foolish.

[Spin Move]

Hey guys, I have done my best not to issue any warnings in this thread on a sensative topic, keep everything above the belt please, do not personally insult other posters, and try not to make sweeping racist generalizations. Regardless of your opinion of these events or your life expierance remember that we have rules on this board and while we have been letting them go a little in this thread please don't push it to far.

[GuyClinch]

You could probably look at the cycle of poverty as more of a class issue than a race issue although you would be stupid not to notice the profound discrepancy between races and the classes they fall in.

It's a class issue. It's a cultural issue (and Bill Cosby has touched on this with regards to the black community). Its also a regional issue. It's a family issue. It's probably not really a racial issue as foreign born blacks do quite well here in the US and our president is "black" (though not descended from slaves). His dad was foreign born. Blacks from Kenya not only have a different genetic heritage but a hugely different cultural legacy.

Trying to twist the book "outliers" to fit your white guilt paradigm for the problem with black poverty is a huge stretch and not at all what the author intended. Looking at the all issues solely through the "racial" lens is very shortsighted and behind the times. Any decent biologist will tell you that there are NO races with regards to humans.

Gladwell has recieved a TON of criticism for his book to be quite honest. I think some of it is result of the misguided conclusions by muddled thinkers. While thinking everyone success is a function of "talent" is misguided - thinking everyone's hard times is a function of whatever external variable that suits your fancy is equally foolish. He didn't even touch on that topic. He was concerned with the variables that led to extraordinary success. (Though some would claim he did a rather poor job with that as well.) Either way the problem of sub-par achievement for the black slave descendants is multi-faceted.

Pete

[x34truth34x]

You could probably look at the cycle of poverty as more of a class issue than a race issue although you would be stupid not to notice the profound discrepancy between races and the classes they fall in.

It's a class issue. It's a cultural issue (and Bill Cosby has touched on this with regards to the black community). Its also a regional issue. It's a family issue. It's probably not really a racial issue as foreign born blacks do quite well here in the US and our president is "black" (though not descended from slaves). His dad was foreign born. Blacks from Kenya not only have a different genetic heritage but a hugely different cultural legacy.

Trying to twist the book "outliers" to fit your white guilt paradigm for the problem with black poverty is a huge stretch and not at all what the author intended. Looking at the all issues solely through the "racial" lens is very shortsighted and behind the times. Any decent biologist will tell you that there are NO races with regards to humans.

Gladwell has recieved a TON of criticism for his book to be quite honest. I think some of it is result of the misguided conclusions by muddled thinkers. While thinking everyone success is a function of "talent" is misguided - thinking everyone's hard times is a function of whatever external variable that suits your fancy is equally foolish. He didn't even touch on that topic. He was concerned with the variables that led to extraordinary success. (Though some would claim he did a rather poor job with that as well.) Either way the problem of sub-par achievement for the black slave descendants is multi-faceted.

Pete

Stop using Bill Cosby as some catch all argument for this. Yes Bill Cosby thinks that black folks are lazy and need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, Bill Cosby also is I think (and I think if you logically think it through you will agree) very wrong about this.

I'm going to make sort of a logical ultimatum. There can only be two views on this issue, there really isn't much nuance about it. Either you can choose to believe that:

Human beings are born with certain "traits" such as laziness or whatever, you would also have to make the assumption that blacks are somehow genetically inferior to whites in this respect.

If you reject that proposition (as you should) then it must be accepted that any type of "laziness" or "lawlessness" is created by the environment in which they grow up in. Talking about sub saharan african immigrants who move to Keane doing well working at the local Wal-Mart or asian immigrants becoming doctors somehow invalidating this is foolish. The black american's experience is one profoundly and painfully effected by race. Poverty is a circular process, this is not up for debate as it is accepted in every academic circle that deals with it. If a person's family lives in poverty for generations it is very unlikely they will leave. Crime, lack of parents in the home, drugs, lack of good food to eat (supermarkets will not put down shop in the inner city), lack of preventative care and dentistry, etc. These all contribute to a person not having anything to lose or not having confidence in their ability in the workplace (and good luck finding substantial work in the inner cities). Of course you have your exceptions like Bill Cosby but I think it would be obvious that there are very few stories of black men and women "bootstrapping" to the top that don't involve the modern day minstrel shows of sports or music.

[GreenPiece]

Stop using Bill Cosby as some catch all argument for this. Yes Bill Cosby thinks that black folks are lazy and need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, Bill Cosby also is I think (and I think if you logically think it through you will agree) very wrong about this.

I'm going to make sort of a logical ultimatum. There can only be two views on this issue, there really isn't much nuance about it. Either you can choose to believe that:

Human beings are born with certain "traits" such as laziness or whatever, you would also have to make the assumption that blacks are somehow genetically inferior to whites in this respect.

If you reject that proposition (as you should) then it must be accepted that any type of "laziness" or "lawlessness" is created by the environment in which they grow up in.

Obviously he chooses the latter, and his explanation is culture. Take 15 minutes to listen to popular rap music and tell me culture isn't a factor. Of course there is racism, but there is also anti-semitism.

Talking about sub saharan african immigrants who move to Keane doing well working at the local Wal-Mart or asian immigrants becoming doctors somehow invalidating this is foolish. The black american's experience is one profoundly and painfully effected by race. Poverty is a circular process, this is not up for debate as it is accepted in every academic circle that deals with it. If a person's family lives in poverty for generations it is very unlikely they will leave. Crime, lack of parents in the home, drugs, lack of good food to eat (supermarkets will not put down shop in the inner city), lack of preventative care and dentistry, etc. These all contribute to a person not having anything to lose or not having confidence in their ability in the workplace (and good luck finding substantial work in the inner cities). Of course you have your exceptions like Bill Cosby but I think it would be obvious that there are very few stories of black men and women "bootstrapping" to the top that don't involve the modern day minstrel shows of sports or music.

These are all factors, but they can be overcome, as countless other ethnic and racial groups have shown. The lack of blacks "bootstrapping" their way to the top in the presence of entire minority groups that have overcome these obstacles just illustrates Cosby's point about culture.

[jfs1000d]

Good stuff from people here, but the plight of black poverty is incredibly overwhelming. There is a burden of history that descendants of slaves carry today.

Why have Asian,Italian and Irish immigrants done so well the last 100 years? In the 1920s the bigotry against Italians was overwhelming. Even Hispanic immigrants have made incredible strides in second and third generations. So,this is more than a class or ethnic issue, because other minority and ethnic groups have busted out of their impoverished roots in this country,and we are already seeing that with second and third generation Mexican immigrants in this country.

The progeny of black slaves however are different.There are some cases of upward mobility, but it is not on the scale of other groups. The enslavement of Africans in this country destroyed their culture and family history and after the Civil War until today, has created a class of permanent poverty stricken people in our urban and rural areas. This is on a macro level. Certainly an individual can work his way out by going to school and having a strong family, but vast majority of the group is stuck in cultural and economic poverty that is essentially permanent.

The destruction of the black family today is directly related to the separation of the children from their families 150 years ago. There are still people alive today whose grand parents,or great grand parents were slaves. Time will heal these wounds, but we as a society we didn't try to rectify this social problem until the 1960s.That's not very long ago and Gates is a product of those times,and we shouldn't forget that.

We have made great strides intellectually and morally, but the experience of blacks in this country has been of enslavement and economic subjugation. That burden is not carried by other minority and ethnic groups.

Edit: Many minority and immigrant groups in this country have risen class by relying on a shared experience. Italian deli, Mexican church etc. They have common experiences with one another and that culture they bring over from their other country helps them grow into American citizens. Irish, Italian, Asians,Mexican immigrants generally stick together and grow out of poverty as a group. The only shared cultural experience of African-Americans is slavery and poverty.

If it was as easy as what Bill Cosby is saying,it would have been done already. African-Americans have no culture and no family history and are still strangers in their own land. There is an absence of family and community.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Remember when talking about the success of immigrant populations that those groups are often skewed toward highly motivated risk-taking individuals, or, Most Likely To Succeeders. If you compared 5 average RealGMers to the Australian national basketball team, Australia would look like a powerhouse. If you compare 5 average RealGMers to 5 average Australians, you probably see more parity. Do we live in a world of equal basketball opportunity? Not yet.

[Fencer reregistered]

What's most amazing to me is Crowley's police report that clearly states that he spoke with Whalen (the 911 caller) in person and was told it was two black men. There's a whole paragraph of detail about this event. Whalen's attorney, on the other hand, said that Whalen denies having spoken to Crowley in person. That's not just some minor contradiction that's subject to interpretation. Whalen or Crowley is just flat out lying about that, and considering that Whalen did not identify the race in the 911 call, but Crowley's report mentions she mentioned the race in person, I'm tending to think that Crowley's fabricating stuff in his report to make it look like a straightforward arrest.

C'mon. White cops never lie. Just black professors at elite universities.

Heck, just the fact that they have those professorial jobs is itself proof that they're con artists.

[Fencer reregistered]

The fact that the charges were dropped does not mean the arrest was wrong. I think it was a good arrest.

"think" is not the correct verb. If could so quickly be determined to be innocent, then it was not a good arrest.

I provided a link with examples illustrating that he was clearly and obviously innocent ...

... and that's assuming all the details in the police report were true, which we already know is far from being the case.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Edit: Many minority and immigrant groups in this country have risen class by relying on a shared experience. Italian deli, Mexican church etc. They have common experiences with one another and that culture they bring over from their other country helps them grow into American citizens. Irish, Italian, Asians,Mexican immigrants generally stick together and grow out of poverty as a group. The only shared cultural experience of African-Americans is slavery and poverty.

If it was as easy as what Bill Cosby is saying,it would have been done already. African-Americans have no culture and no family history and are still strangers in their own land. There is an absence of family and community.

"No culture" is extreme, African-Americans have produced tons of culture ("culture", I think, in a different sense than you mean it). But the relationship of African-American culture to mainstream culture is problematic in its own right.

Back to this specific incident, the discrepancy between the released 911 tapes and the police report is significant and calls Crowley's honesty even more into question.

[ryaningf]

...

Trying to twist the book "outliers" to fit your white guilt paradigm for the problem with black poverty is a huge stretch and not at all what the author intended. Looking at the all issues solely through the "racial" lens is very shortsighted and behind the times. Any decent biologist will tell you that there are NO races with regards to humans.

...

Pete

Listen, Pete, I'm not sure what x34truth34x may or may not have intended, but I personally brought up the book in connection with white privilege because "Outliers" deals with the 'hidden' factors behind success. The point being, just like most people ignore the hidden factors that go into success and still cling to the notion that hard work solves everything and anybody with a good work ethic can succeed, so do those with the white privilege attitude cling to the notion that the same perks of their circumstances hold true for everybody else. In short, both attitudes assume everything to be equal with hard work being the variable that determines success--and both attitudes are wrong.

Gladwell went after the myth of the American dream in his book and never overtly delves into the subject of race. But his method--the one which searches out the 'hidden' factors of success that are beyond the control of the individual--is the same one that was used to formulate the white privilege theory. I brought up the book to get people to connect the dots--though, as I mentioned earlier, some people, even if they're smart, aren't going to accept it. Such is life.

[Dirty Water]

Any decent biologist will tell you that there are NO races with regards to humans.

Completely and utterly false.

[Parasite]

.

The President of the United States is black. The Governor of Massachusetts is black. There are tons and tons of successful black people in this country. For you to excuse blacks committing crimes because of their economic situation is ridiculous and morally reprehensible. If I were a black person I'd punch you in the face if I ever met you.

You keep living in the past and keep gnawing at old wounds. You do it because you don't want them to heal. You are just like those charlatans like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who make their living by trying to keep the black man embittered and prone to making excuses for failure. Luckily, I think the tide is changing and you and your kind will shortly disappear.

There are successfull black people. You can even list dozens of them. Wow. I guess racism is dead. Try leaving your house once and while people. Or maybe look in the miror. Jesus Christ.

I never said racism is dead. There has been a ton of progress made however. The President is black. Hello????

How anyone can still keep living in the past is regrettable. Yet, there are people like Jesse Jackson, et al. who want exactly that! Because it makes them money and gives them power.

[Fencer reregistered]

Any decent biologist will tell you that there are NO races with regards to humans.

Completely and utterly false.

Actually, much closer to being true.

Racial differences are, overwhelmingly, both literally and figuratively superficial.

[jfs1000d]

I hope we all know what's going on here.

This has nothing to do with Crowley etc. What this is about is a conservative working class white male demographic exploiting this issue for political purposes.

I feel sorry for Crowley, in one sense he seems like a loyal dem and probably voted for Obama. But he is being used by conservative populists (think Sarah Palin, not Mitt Romney) to drive a wedge between urban and rural, working class and educated etc.

The same people who railed over Supreme Court nominee Sonya Sotomayor and the New Haven Firefighters case are on Crowley's side here. This is all about race, and it would appear that race had nothing to do with the initial incident in question (Gates was out of line, so was Crowley, and now it's Sharpton vs. Limbaugh).

Crowley has become a poster boy for white, working class frustration. Nothing like keeping the white man down. It is kind of silly if you think about it, but that's what sells in the new Republican party and why it has become a Southern White rural party.

[GuyClinch]

Racial differences are, overwhelmingly, both literally and figuratively superficial.

Certainly there are still genetic differences between populations of individuals. But the entire that 'race' is related to skin color is nonsense. Its like thinking that all tall people have a similar genetic backaround or that people with blond hair all have a similiar genetic backaround. its just not true.

So this is what I mean by there are no real races. Certain populations still have various genetic traits like the Bushmen of africa and the pygmies. But they are all "black" the genetic diversity among "black" people is actually greater then that of white. So 'race' the way it used by people is wrong.

I will say US perceptions are muddled by the fact the slaves did in fact largely come from one geographically isolated area in West africa. Thus most "black" americans are cut from similiar genetic cloth. Much like how you can see resemblance in a large family..

Obama though has almost nothing in common with these people except skin color. His dad was Kenyan and from a genetic standpoint thats very distinct from the slave descendants here.

Pete

[GuyClinch]

The point being, just like most people ignore the hidden factors that go into success and still cling to the notion that hard work solves everything and anybody with a good work ethic can succeed, so do those with the white privilege attitude cling to the notion that the same perks of their circumstances hold true for everybody else. In short, both attitudes assume everything to be equal with hard work being the variable that determines success--and both attitudes are wrong.

Sigh. First off Gladwell IS NOT talking about generalized success. He is taking about get this "OUTLIERS" you know people who do extraordinarily well. Some would say he does a poor job of this. But getting away from that..

Your misusing his book which at times is intellectually shoddy. So its really not a great argument. (How do we know the fact that the beatles played long hours made them great and it wasn't some other factors.. ) Anyway my point is that Gladwell would absolutely agree with ME..

When I say that black man from a family with a Doctor for a mom and Lawyer for a dad - is far more likely to succeed then a white applachian miner from WV whose parents don't have a HS education.

So absolutely the legacy of black slavery has taken a huge toll on the american black population. But its not skin color that's holding some back. Its also broken homes with dead beat dads, a culture that simply does not value education as much as other immigrant cultures, and so on and so forth. It's a multi-faceted problem.

The way to attack the problem (and again having read the book I am dead certain that Gladwell would agree) is to make sure poor children have better opportunities and change the culture among the black community.

And I never said changing the culture would be easy. But I think is already happening.. Its people like Gates who operate with this racial narrative "lens" in their head thats frankly incredibly outdated. People in the younger generation simply don't care about race that much. People just want individuals who can do the job.

People like Gates hold his community back by not focusing on the issues that real bother the black community. Its really easy to see this - just by noting say the almost bizarre gap between black women and men. Black women have strived to get ahead via traditional means like education and have been somewhat succesful. But in their culture black men have seen educational achievement as something to be ridiculed. Now obviously this has changed alot - and it's improving. But its legacy still lingers on as black women still outperform black men.

Pete