OT: Officer Crowley

[GuyClinch]

Crowley has become a poster boy for white, working class frustration. Nothing like keeping the white man down. It is kind of silly if you think about it, but that's what sells in the new Republican party and why it has become a Southern White rural party.

In your mind only.. People are just upset that Obama took sides with a professor who was acting like a spoiled, boorish twit just because he was "black." It was a political error on his part..a bad one.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Any decent biologist will tell you that there are NO races with regards to humans.

Completely and utterly false.

Actually, much closer to being true.

Racial differences are, overwhelmingly, both literally and figuratively superficial.

Well, we're all related in a sense that we're part of an extended family. That's why we're part of the human race.

What are commonly referred to as racial groups are rather like an extended inbred family. One's family tree does not extend outward indefinitely. At a certain point it turns back inward forming a diamond shap. Genealogists call that pedigree collapse. Way back when, there was mathematical certainty that inbreeding happened. There weren't enough unique individuals around for it to have been otherwise. Since airfare was a lot more expensive 10,000 years ago, people pretty much grew up where they were born, or near to there.

So, owing to pedigree collapse, while we are all related to one another in some sense, it's more genealogically significant to say that every person is much more related to some people than to other people. Those groups of people that grew up and mated together generation after generation eventually had distinct clusters of genes that geneticists can easily identify as being of a particular group, which in broad terms we call race. So, while there is no firm box around which we can put the label "race", there are groups of people that are more genetically related to each other than they are to other groups of people that lived half way around the earth.

None of which makes any sort of value judgements. Just stating that groups that grew up a long way from each other over a very long period of time and are a sort of extended family with a degree of inbreeding, are more related to their fellows (and ancestors) who grew up in the same general area. We know these as races. Geneticists can unfailingly identify which race an individual belongs to, and as Europeans go, can do so with a degree of specificity about where in Europe your ancestors were from, as can anthropologists. It's a matter of relatedness writ large.

As an aside, relatedness is what identity politics are all about. People organize politically around some aspect of shared identity, be it language, religion, or race.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Crowley has become a poster boy for white, working class frustration. Nothing like keeping the white man down. It is kind of silly if you think about it, but that's what sells in the new Republican party and why it has become a Southern White rural party.

So that's who plays the identity politics game the most. Who knew?

[wigglestrue]

People are just upset that Obama took sides with a professor who was acting like a spoiled, boorish twit just because he was "black."

I've agreed with most of what you've writen in this thread, but I have to say that Obama probably sided with Gates more because Gates is a buddy than anything else, and took issue with the arrested-in-his-home part more than the arrested-for-being-black part.

[ryaningf]

The point being, just like most people ignore the hidden factors that go into success and still cling to the notion that hard work solves everything and anybody with a good work ethic can succeed, so do those with the white privilege attitude cling to the notion that the same perks of their circumstances hold true for everybody else. In short, both attitudes assume everything to be equal with hard work being the variable that determines success--and both attitudes are wrong.

Sigh. First off Gladwell IS NOT talking about generalized success. He is taking about get this "OUTLIERS" you know people who do extraordinarily well. Some would say he does a poor job of this. But getting away from that..

Sigh all you want, Pete. The book is about the story of success. "Outliers" is shorthand for those that do extraordinarily well and Gladwell uses their lessons to investigate the factors that lead to success. So, no, the book isn't ABOUT "Outliers"--notwithstanding the fact that that's the title of the book--it's about the FACTORS that create outliers, factors that are mostly beyond the individual's control.

Your misusing his book which at times is intellectually shoddy. So its really not a great argument. (How do we know the fact that the beatles played long hours made them great and it wasn't some other factors.. ) Anyway my point is that Gladwell would absolutely agree with ME..

I'm misusing the book? You don't even know what the book's about. I'd love to hear why the book is intellectually shoddy--but instead of explaining your rationale (which would go along way towards strengthening your argument), you fall all over yourself to point out that Gladwell would absolutely agree with YOU. If you had some face time with the man, I'm pretty sure the conversation wouldn't even get off the ground until he corrected your fundamental misunderstanding of his book...

When I say that black man from a family with a Doctor for a mom and Lawyer for a dad - is far more likely to succeed then a white applachian miner from WV whose parents don't have a HS education.

Yeah, so? What's your point?

So absolutely the legacy of black slavery has taken a huge toll on the american black population. But its not skin color that's holding some back. Its also broken homes with dead beat dads, a culture that simply does not value education as much as other immigrant cultures, and so on and so forth. It's a multi-faceted problem.

If you care the check the thread, I already addressed these concerns in a previous post. I agree with you--it's a multifaceted problem.

The way to attack the problem (and again having read the book I am dead certain that Gladwell would agree) is to make sure poor children have better opportunities and change the culture among the black community.

That's all political mumbo-jumbo that says nothing; lots of vague allusions to 'better opportunities' and 'culture change.' etc.... But what does this have to do with anything I wrote about? I was talking about the white and privileged attitude which runs through this thread--fixing THAT problem requires a plastic mind that can step outside one's own experience and see through the eyes of the Other--THAT'S what's required to make the kind of systemic changes necessary to level the playing field and truly promote growth and make the American dream more reality than myth.

And I never said changing the culture would be easy. But I think is already happening.. Its people like Gates who operate with this racial narrative "lens" in their head thats frankly incredibly outdated. People in the younger generation simply don't care about race that much. People just want individuals who can do the job.

And the sweeping generalizations spring forth with great fervor and tremendous feeling. When did you become the spokesman of your generation? And capable of knowing the thoughts and feelings of the 'younger generation'?

I think it's safe to say that racial prejudice lessens with each succeeding generation, but I'm also pretty sure that that's NOT what Gates has dedicated his life to promote. He's after bigger fish--he wants to topple institutionalized, systemic racism which lurks beneath the surface, in the very subconscious of the country--and you do that by combating the very attitude that you espouse, i.e., that everything's alight and that the younger generation is so enlightened that we needn't worry about racism anymore. That's foolish and naive. Enlightened men and women are powerless against the tyranny of systemic racism--because it's hard to see and not a product of individual racist attitude. This is racism on the meta-level, beyond the individual's control. Again, this is why I brought Gladwell's book into the discussion--the entire essence of that book is that there are forces beyond our control that determine one's success and failure. The kind of racism that Gates dedicated his life to fight against is on a similar level...

People like Gates hold his community back by not focusing on the issues that real bother the black community. Its really easy to see this - just by noting say the almost bizarre gap between black women and men. Black women have strived to get ahead via traditional means like education and have been somewhat succesful. But in their culture black men have seen educational achievement as something to be ridiculed. Now obviously this has changed alot - and it's improving. But its legacy still lingers on as black women still outperform black men.

Pete

Complete and utter BS, Pete. Gates is not holding his community back any more than anyone else--good or bad--holds any community back or pushes them forward. He's one individual in the swarm of society--you give him too much credit by accusing him of holding back a community. All he seeks to do is illuminate the masses on the hidden aspects of racism which lurk beneath the surface...you can listen or put your head in the sand and think you got it all figured out. Your choice.

[jfs1000d]

Obama made a bad blunder and he exposed himself to political shots. That's certainly a fair assessment and I have no problem with opponents taking political shots at Obama for this (it's fair game).

As far as identity politics, conservatives don't play that game? I would say they do even more than liberals.

Why do you think Sarah Palin so popular? Because she is a "real american", right?

Country music, waving the flag, anti-intellectualism , anti-elite, anti-urban, anti-immigration, and anti-progress and is a kind of way to group frustrated working class and poor whites into a political group. Why do you think the Obama birther conspiracy still kicks around?

Fun, flag and faith, right? Who does that appeal to?

When I was growing up, Republicans used to be businessmen and libertarians that wanted low taxes and the government to get out their way to make money and live the way they wanted to live. That doesn't exist anymore on a national level. If it did, I would be one.

More likely, a republican is a rural southern white of working class origins (which is fine).

Look at what has happened here in New England. There is not a single republican Congressperson or Senator in New England that is a Republican. The classic businessman republican is dead on a national level in New England and the West Coast.

All that is left for the republicans to play on is the working class rust belt Midwest and rural south.

The playbook since 1972 for the Repbulicans (and perfected by Regan) was a coalition of elite pro -businessmen and "regan democrats" -" working class whites. For whatever reason, that has fractured in the party.

The appeal of the Crowley incident was to just incite working class whites -- which is embodied in a police officer (an archetype of working class) -- against President Obama. That comes on the heels of him nominating Sotomayor in the New Haven Firefighters case, which they made a big deal over (stupidly IMO politically).

Obama doesn't care about policemen, firemen, the troops, the hunter etc. These are all working class -- generally white -- caricatures.

[wigglestrue]

I love how systemic racism is always "hidden", "hard-to-see", how it "lurks beneath the surface" in our "subconscious". Sounds like a bunch of bull**** you were indoctrinated with in college. Sorry. Racism HAS TO BE the collective product of individual racist attitudes, and those just don't exist like they used to, and the ones that do exist mostly belong to powerless retirees in nursing homes. Everything else that is supposed to be racism is "meta" for sure -- so "meta" that it pretty much exists only in the minds of the supposedly victimized and the "enlightened". We've gone from slave ships and plantations and lynchings and segregation to...what, exactly? What are the actual things that rise to the level of systemic racism? Extra heat from mall rent-a-cops? Aptitude tests that have a question about yachts? A split second flinch from a woman with a purse? Because I guarantee you any disadvantage more substantive will be a matter of class, not race, which is what Pete was trying to point out above.

[jfs1000d]

I love how systemic racism is always "hidden", "hard-to-see", how it "lurks beneath the surface" in our "subconscious". Sounds like a bunch of bull**** you were indoctrinated with in college. Sorry. Racism HAS TO BE the collective product of individual racist attitudes, and those just don't exist like they used to, and the ones that do exist mostly belong to powerless retirees in nursing homes. Everything else that is supposed to be racism is "meta" for sure -- so "meta" that it pretty much exists only in the minds of the supposedly victimized and the "enlightened". We've gone from slave ships and plantations and lynchings and segregation to...what, exactly? What are the actual things that rise to the level of systemic racism? Extra heat from mall rent-a-cops? Aptitude tests that have a question about yachts? A split second flinch from a woman with a purse? Because I guarantee you any disadvantage more substantive will be a matter of class, not race, which is what Pete was trying to point out above.

Class conflict can not be the reason for the continued impoverishment of a majority African Americans. There are too many. There is institutional bias and a lack of opportunity for many African American people.

[AlCelticFan]

The point is that there is a lack of opportunity for ANYONE poor in the US.

[wigglestrue]

Class conflict can not be the reason for the continued impoverishment of a majority African Americans. There are too many.

You do realize that the vast majority of poor people are white?

There is institutional bias and a lack of opportunity for many African American people.

Details, please. Personally, I knew several poor white kids with deadbeat dads who would've been accepted into better schools and received much more in the way of scholarship money...had they been black. The black kids on the other side of town lacked opportunity WHERE? The bias in WHICH institutions?

[ryaningf]

I love how systemic racism is always "hidden", "hard-to-see", how it "lurks beneath the surface" in our "subconscious". Sounds like a bunch of bull**** you were indoctrinated with in college. Sorry. Racism HAS TO BE the collective product of individual racist attitudes, and those just don't exist like they used to, and the ones that do exist mostly belong to powerless retirees in nursing homes. Everything else that is supposed to be racism is "meta" for sure -- so "meta" that it pretty much exists only in the minds of the supposedly victimized and the "enlightened". We've gone from slave ships and plantations and lynchings and segregation to...what, exactly? What are the actual things that rise to the level of systemic racism? Extra heat from mall rent-a-cops? Aptitude tests that have a question about yachts? A split second flinch from a woman with a purse? Because I guarantee you any disadvantage more substantive will be a matter of class, not race, which is what Pete was trying to point out above.

Racism IS the collective product of individual racist attitudes. What you fail to understand is that the systems in play in America aren't continually being re-assessed and reformatted day by day--they were put into play 100 to 250 years ago and thus are indoctrinated--subconsciously at this point since the overt instances HAVE been deleted--by the racist individual attitude readily present at the time of their creation. The problem of institutionalized, systemic racism is that it exists on the meta-level where individual attitudes do not hold sway. It takes an overhaul of the system to remove the subconscious racist elements--something that requires a majority of individual attitudes to recognize and eradicate.

I've done nothing to discount the role of class in this discussion--undoubtedly it plays a very important part in one's success. But don't use it to minimize the power of racism.

[Bill Lumbergh]

...

Class conflict can not be the reason for the continued impoverishment of a majority African Americans. There are too many. There is institutional bias and a lack of opportunity for many African American people.

Any correlation to academic achievement? I'm not up on those figures. Are all groups pretty equal as far as that goes, because if they are, I'd definitely say they are up against some bias if they're performing just as well academically but still lagging behind in employment/income.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I. "Institutional racism" seems to me not to be caused by any contemporary prejudice but by the after-effects of slavery, discrimination, and widespread racism.. We've levelled the playing field in terms of attitudes, but not in terms of socioeconomic equality - it's kind of like the way a chair cushion gets depressed by the person sitting on it- after the person gets up, it takes time for the cushion to return to its natural shape..

II. One provocative point I've heard made is about class- as much as we debate w/ political correctness and enlightened attitudes the obstacles faced by African-Americans, no one would think to utter anything demeaning or disparaging about poor black Americans. When it comes to poor white Americans, though, they're the one ethnic group it's ok to insult- a lot of liberal-minded people will joke glibly about "rednecks" and "white trash" - even though it's arguably the same set of factors - lack of opportunity, inferior education, drug abuse, crime, broken families - affecting ALL people in poverty, regardless of skin color. So there are both progressive and regressive attitudes toward the American poor at the same time.

[wigglestrue]

Racism IS the collective product of individual racist attitudes. What you fail to understand is that the systems in play in America aren't continually being re-assessed and reformatted day by day--they were put into play 100 to 250 years ago and thus are indoctrinated--subconsciously at this point since the overt instances HAVE been deleted--by the racist individual attitude readily present at the time of their creation. The problem of institutionalized, systemic racism is that it exists on the meta-level where individual attitudes do not hold sway. It takes an overhaul of the system to remove the subconscious racist elements--something that requires a majority of individual attitudes to recognize and eradicate.

"subconsciously at this point since the overt instances HAVE been deleted"...?

What in the ****ing **** does all that MEAN? All I can imagine is a cartoon version of a huge concrete federal building in a psychiatrist's chair, talking about its mother. That is DEFINITELY some **** you were fed in college. Mind-boggingly empty language. Please, if there's any substance to what you're saying...give instances of the "covert", give hypothetical examples. WHAT are the subconscious racist elements? Or are we all just supposed to look where you're pointing, squint, agree that we also see the invisible and undetectable menace, and describe it in the same obtuse meta-language?

I've done nothing to discount the role of class in this discussion--undoubtedly it plays a very important part in one's success. But don't use it to minimize the power of racism.

I will absolutely use it to minimize the power of racism, because as far as instruments of inequality go, class currently (and for quite some time) beats the everloving **** out of race. I would venture that about 95% of every type of disadvantage purported to be a product of racism is just a product of class. Class TOWERS over race, in terms of actual cause-and-effect, and if I could put "TOWERS" in 250 point font, I would.

[jfs1000d]

...

Class conflict can not be the reason for the continued impoverishment of a majority African Americans. There are too many. There is institutional bias and a lack of opportunity for many African American people.

Any correlation to academic achievement? I'm not up on those figures. Are all groups pretty equal as far as that goes, because if they are, I'd definitely say they are up against some bias if they're performing just as well academically but still lagging behind in employment/income.

Academic achievement (test scores) is a reflection of your educational environment. Why do you think many black parents want charter schools and other magnet schools?

When black people have the same educational opportunities as whites, their acheivement level is similar. I don't see what you mean with this.

Either black people are dumber than other races, or they are not given the same opportunities and advantages.

We have to remember something about social status here.

Class is important it, but it is a temporary status (we are not in a caste system). Race is permanent. I grew up semi poor (food stamps, welfare, but not in a project) in a mostly black and working class neighborhood. My family eventually became middle class and educated.

No one looks at me as a poor guy from the 'hood who made it. If I was black, the narrative is different. I had my church help pay for Catholic school. No one assumed I was some kind of affirmative action admittance, though it was probably economic affirmative action. I dressed in a shirt and tie. But, I heard from many parents in the back rooms about the poor black kid who got in to play basketball.

The point is everyone knew the kid was black and poor. No one knew I was from an economically lower background. Class is temporary. Race is permanent. To discount race is to ignore the burden of their history and the permanence of their race.

If I didn't live these experiences and see how skin color affects the way you are treated and people interpret you, I would probably be on your side. But, being half-hispanic (who has never been confused of being a latino, I am white as can be), I see how ethnicity and race affect your life chances.

I have lived both sides.

[wigglestrue]

No one assumed I was some kind of affirmative action admittance, though it was probably economic affirmative action.

Right. And the only difference between your experience and the black kid's experience was that he had some bigots talk behind his back, which, if he ever found out about, might hurt his feelings. But you were both admitted to a school you economically had no business going to. Now, imagine you hadn't been given that opportunity. Where would you have wound up? Some public school, I imagine. The same public school where all the other poor kids went, regardless of race. Public schooling is a class issue, not a race issue. And unless you are blessed early on with an opportunity or two above your class expectations, then I assure you: Class is effectively as permanent as race. What I wouldn't give to have had black skin but an upper middle class family income to meet my educational needs growing up.

[jfs1000d]

No one assumed I was some kind of affirmative action admittance, though it was probably economic affirmative action.

Right. And the only difference between your experience and the black kid's experience was that he had some bigots talk behind his back, which, if he ever found out about, might hurt his feelings. But you were both admitted to a school you economically had no business going to. Now, imagine you hadn't been given that opportunity. Where would you have wound up? Some public school, I imagine. The same public school where all the other poor kids went, regardless of race. Public schooling is a class issue, not a race issue. And unless you are blessed early on with an opportunity or two above your class expectations, then I assure you: Class is effectively as permanent as race. What I wouldn't give to have had black skin but an upper middle class family income to meet my educational needs growing up.

That's incorrect. Even at a public school this comes into play. When I was looking at colleges I received tremendous help and acceptance from guidance departments. The black kid? No help from guidance counselors. He got help from the coach to go to a tech school. He never graduated college.

More importantly, he wasn't challenged the same way I was academically, and the social circles he kept didn't expand. I nearly got kicked out because I was lazy my freshman year. I was given another chance. He would have never have got that. You see, that back room "hurt feelings" has a real effect. I say he was isolated because of his race in the environment. It's the same at public schools. There is a bigotry of low expectations and it becomes a self-fulling prophecy.

I don't understand your argument Wiggles. Are black people dumber? Or is their opportunity limited.

Does it offend you when a black guy gets a chance based on his race? Would you prefer a white person get the chance, or all get the chance (that would be socialism)?

[jfs1000d]

No one assumed I was some kind of affirmative action admittance, though it was probably economic affirmative action.

Right. And the only difference between your experience and the black kid's experience was that he had some bigots talk behind his back, which, if he ever found out about, might hurt his feelings. But you were both admitted to a school you economically had no business going to. Now, imagine you hadn't been given that opportunity. Where would you have wound up? Some public school, I imagine. The same public school where all the other poor kids went, regardless of race. Public schooling is a class issue, not a race issue. And unless you are blessed early on with an opportunity or two above your class expectations, then I assure you: Class is effectively as permanent as race. What I wouldn't give to have had black skin but an upper middle class family income to meet my educational needs growing up.

Absolutely not. I reject that, it's such a negative and pessimistic view of the world. How would you explain the rise of other minority and immigrant classes as well as poor whites making it into a middle class existence?

For some reason, blacks don't improve their standing as a whole. There is a permanently poor class of black people in this country for many reasons (I think we all agree on what is causing it). 3 or 4 generations of being poor -- when it is an entire community and cultural -- is something to be embarrassed about as a nation.

[wigglestrue]

That's incorrect. Even at a public school this comes into play. When I was looking at colleges I received tremendous help and acceptance from guidance departments. The black kid? No help from guidance counselors. He got help from the coach to go to a tech school. He never graduated college.

More importantly, he wasn't challenged the same way I was academically, and the social circles he kept didn't expand. I nearly got kicked out because I was lazy my freshman year. I was given another chance. He would have never have got that. You see, that back room "hurt feelings" has a real effect. I say he was isolated because of his race in the environment. It's the same at public schools. There is a bigotry of low expectations and it becomes a self-fulling prophecy.

That one kid might have been dumb or unambitious, yeah: **** happens. Maybe tech school was his best bet. Quite a few white dumbasses whose destiny awaits them in a Maaco. I'm curious how you know that the guidance counselors refused to help him and that their lack of help was racially motivated. In my experience, a few black kids I knew were pampered by guidance counselors looking to boost their diversity numbers.

I don't understand your argument Wiggles. Are black people dumber? Or is their opportunity limited.

The difference between achievement/income/whatever levels between poor black folks and equally poor white folks is minimal to non-existent. There is just a disproportionate percentage of poor black folks. Some people, especially those trained in identity politics, see that disproportionate percentage and instantly see racism, and then work backward to explain how racism produced the gap. There are probably a number of reasons for the gap, and a small part of it might be lingering effects of centuries-long ACTUAL systemic racism, but that's ever-dwindling. The point is, class trumps race. Every. ****ing. time.

Does it offend you when a black guy gets a chance based on his race? Would you prefer a white person get the chance, or all get the chance (that would be socialism)?

I don't really care, I'm just laying out reality.

[Fencer reregistered]

For some reason, enough blacks don't improve their standing. There is a permanently poor class of black people in this country for many reasons (I think we all agree on what is causing it). 3 or 4 generations of being poor -- when it is an entire community and cultural -- is something to be embarrassed about as a nation.

Fixed that for you to make it less extreme and more accurate.