Marion Trade

[grizzfan1204]

I was unable to find this in an earlier post, but could someone break down just why Dallas needed to use Memphis when they landed Marion?

If this is in a previous post, I apologize. If anyone could locate that post, I would appreciate your help!

Thank you.

[Scoot McGroot]

I believe it was as simple as Toronto trying to minimize the amount of salary they received in return for the S&T so that it didn't jeopardize the big money deal they were going to give to Turkoglu.


The Grizz had the cap space to absorb some contracts, including Jerry Stackhouse's.

[grizzfan1204]

Any info on the exact numbers that were exchanged between Memphis, Orlando, Toronto, and Dallas?

[JES12]

Memphis role was needed if Orlando did not jump in and do the S&T so that the Raptors wouold have cap space for Turk + roster holds. Once Orlando jumped in, Memphis was not needed, but the agreement was already there.

Memphis actually saved cap and got cash to boot.

Stackhouse guaranteed money was $2 mil wheresas Buckner's is $2,126,914 spread over 2 years so they saved $126,914 in addition to the cash they recieved.

[FGump]

I believe it was as simple as Toronto trying to minimize the amount of salary they received in return for the S&T so that it didn't jeopardize the big money deal they were going to give to Turkoglu.

The Grizz had the cap space to absorb some contracts, including Jerry Stackhouse's.

It was a bigger issue than that and was a complex deal that unfolded in multiple steps.

Yes the teams could have done the deal without anyone else ... Marion -Humphries for Stackhouse was quite doable and saved Toronto all the money they needed for Turkoglu. But once Stackhouse would have been waived, Toronto's only net benefit in the deal would have been a gain of $900,000 in spending room, not enough to matter.

So they sent Stackhouse to Memphis to add more benefit (another $2M in cap room to have room for the Raps to keep Delfino). The original idea was to do so with enough money to the Grizz to cover Stackhouses' buyout, plus something on the side (an extra sliver of cash or a pick).

In doing it that way, it allowed the Raps the ability to send away salary (Marion, Humphries) while taking none back, since Stackhouse was headed to Memphis.

That ultimately opened the door to Toronto calling Orlando and offering to take Hedo in a sign-and-trade without having to send any salary back (their outgoing salary heading to Dallas instead) - and then that was followed by about 5 more adjustments to the deal that were all cap and salary oriented, where one-by-one a piece got changed and then a different one had to be changed as a result, like dominos in a row.

Memphis role was needed if Orlando did not jump in and do the S&T so that the Raptors wouold have cap space for Turk + roster holds. Once Orlando jumped in, Memphis was not needed, but the agreement was already there..

That's not accurate on multiple levels. Orlando did not jump in so to speak, instead the deal as it was being structured created a window where Orlando could be added. They were not needed.

Also, in adding Orlando, Memphis was still as vital to the deal as ever. Without the Grizz (or some other under-the-cap team) taking Stackhouse's contract, there would have been no way for Turkoglu to be traded from Orlando to Toronto without Toronto sending salary back to the Magic - salary the Magic were unwilling to accept.

[lakerfan10770]

I found something of interest when I went back to confirm the numbers on the trade, it appears that the some of the the salary numbers are slightly off. If Jerry Stackhouse's salary was $7.25M and Shawn Marion got a deal starting at $6,475,068, then the deal doesn't quite work. Either way, here are the numbers that I have:

From Toronto's Perspective:
Toronto Trades:
Shawn Marion - $6,475,068 (S&T 5yrs $39,174,160)
Kris Humphries - $2,900,000
Nathan Jawai - $736,420
Cash Considerations
Total Outgoing - $10,111,488
Max Incoming - $12,739,360

Toronto Receives:
Hedo Turkoglu - $9,000,000 (S&T 5yrs $53M)
Antoine Wright - $1,800,000
Devean George - $1,600,000
Total Incoming - $12,400,000

From Dallas' Persepctive (2 parts):
1st Part:
Dallas Trades:
Jerry Stackhouse - $7,250,000
Antoine Wright - $1,800,000
Devean George - $1,600,000
Cash Considerations
Total Outgoing - $10,650,000
Max Incoming - $13,412,500

Dallas Receives:
Shawn Marion - $6,475,068
Greg Buckner - $4,080,916
Kris Humphries - $2,900,000
Cash Considerations
Total Incoming - $13,455,984

2nd Part:
Dallas receives Nathan Jawai via the veteran minimum exception.

From Memphis' Perspective:
Memphis Trades:
Greg Buckner - $4,080,916

Memphis Receives:
Jerry Stackhouse - $7,250,000
Cash Considerations
*This part of the trade works because Memphis had the cap space to absorb the salary difference.

From Orlando's Perspective:
Orlando trades:
Hedo Turkoglu - $9,000,000 (S&T 5yrs $53M)

Orlando Receives:
Cash Considerations
*A Traded Player Exception in the amount of $6,864,200 was created (due to BYC).

[grizzfan1204]

Orlando Receives:
Cash Considerations
*A Traded Player Exception in the amount of $6,864,200 was created (due to BYC).

If Turk is receiving $9m starting salary from the S & T, how/where is the TPE created for Orlando in the amount of $6.8m? I thought BYC only applies if a player earns twice as much (or more) of his previous year's salary...?

[Dunkenstein]

I found something of interest when I went back to confirm the numbers on the trade, it appears that the some of the the salary numbers are slightly off. If Jerry Stackhouse's salary was $7.25M and Shawn Marion got a deal starting at $6,475,068, then the deal doesn't quite work.

Marion got $6,635,068. Does that make it work for you?

[lakerfan10770]

Orlando Receives:
Cash Considerations
*A Traded Player Exception in the amount of $6,864,200 was created (due to BYC).

If Turk is receiving $9m starting salary from the S & T, how/where is the TPE created for Orlando in the amount of $6.8m? I thought BYC only applies if a player earns twice as much (or more) of his previous year's salary...?

Any player that receives a raise greater than 20% is subject to BYC rules.

BTW, I had not checked the ESPN TM for Orlando's TPE prior to commenting, but I did afterwards and it does confrim the TPE of $6,864,200.

[lakerfan10770]

I found something of interest when I went back to confirm the numbers on the trade, it appears that the some of the the salary numbers are slightly off. If Jerry Stackhouse's salary was $7.25M and Shawn Marion got a deal starting at $6,475,068, then the deal doesn't quite work.

Marion got $6,635,068. Does that make it work for you?

No, that actually makes it worse. The problem I am seeing is that Dallas is not sending out enough salary to cover the incoming salaries.

Obviously something isn't right, but I have:

Dallas Outgoing:
Stackhouse - $7,250,000
Wright - $1,800,000
George - $1,600,000
Total - $10,650,000
Max incoming - $13,412,500

Dallas Incoming:
Shawn Marion - $6,475,068
Buckner - $4,080,916
Humphries - $2,900,000
Total - $13,455,984 (about $43,484 too much)

With your number it is $13,615,984, or $203,484 too much.

[Three34]

I thought BYC only applies if a player earns twice as much (or more) of his previous year's salary...?

It applies to raises greater than 20%, not 200%.

[Dunkenstein]

Lakerfan, I found out from a source how the numbers worked. Last season, George achieved $200K in team incentives which pushed his outgoing salary up to $1.8M.

During each trade, team performance incentives, and ONLY team performance incentives, are re-evaluated based on the receiving team’s performance the prior season. In this case, based on last season’s performance by the Raptors, the $200K in incentives were deemed unlikely during the league’s evaluation of the trade. So the incoming value for Toronto for George was only $1.6M.

So outgoing was $1.8M for Dallas and $1.6M incoming for Toronto.

Dallas Outgoing
Jerry Stackhouse $7,250,000
Devean George $1,800,000 (pre-assignment before incentives changed during the trade)
Antoine Wright $1,800,000

Subtotal $10,850,000
25% Extra $2,712,500
Buffer $100,000

Total: $13,662,500

Dallas Incoming
Greg Buckner $4,080,915
Kris Humphries $2,900,000
Shawn Marion $6,635,068

Total: $13,615,983

[Three34]

Heh. Poor old Devean.

[Dunkenstein]

Heh. Poor old Devean.

He's surely not going to achieve those team incentives in Oakland.

[lakerfan10770]

Lakerfan, I found out from a source how the numbers worked. Last season, George achieved $200K in team incentives which pushed his outgoing salary up to $1.8M.

During each trade, team performance incentives, and ONLY team performance incentives, are re-evaluated based on the receiving team’s performance the prior season. In this case, based on last season’s performance by the Raptors, the $200K in incentives were deemed unlikely during the league’s evaluation of the trade. So the incoming value for Toronto for George was only $1.6M.

So outgoing was $1.8M for Dallas and $1.6M incoming for Toronto.

Dallas Outgoing
Jerry Stackhouse $7,250,000
Devean George $1,800,000 (pre-assignment before incentives changed during the trade)
Antoine Wright $1,800,000

Subtotal $10,850,000
25% Extra $2,712,500
Buffer $100,000

Total: $13,662,500

Dallas Incoming
Greg Buckner $4,080,915
Kris Humphries $2,900,000
Shawn Marion $6,635,068

Total: $13,615,983

Thanks Dunk, that makes sense. I knew something had to be up.

BTW, do you know what the salary structure of Marion's deal is? I had taken the number from the ESPN TM of $6,475,068 and assumed 10.5% raises to get to the supposed $39M he got ($39,174,160 actually). But with this slightly higher number of $6,635,068 with 10.5% raises pushes him over $40M.

[grizzfan1204]

Just so I understand Turkoglu's impact on Orlando, the outgoing value for Orlando is $9,000,000, but the incoming value must be 125% + $100,000 of $4,500,000 because he is a BYC player? Is that part correct?

I am still unclear on where the $6,864,200 TPE was created for Orlando...if anyone could shed some light on that, I would appreciate it!

[Three34]

$6,864,200 was Turkoglu#s previous salary. His new contract starts at $9,000,000, which is more than a 20% raise, so that makes him BYC. As a result of his BYC status, his outgoing salary in the trade is to be either his previous salary, or 50% of the first year of his new contract, whichever is greater. And clearly, the previous salary was greater. So his outgoing salary was $6,864,200, and, because the Magic took no salary back, they got a TPE for that amount.

[grizzfan1204]

$6,864,200 was Turkoglu#s previous salary. His new contract starts at $9,000,000, which is more than a 20% raise, so that makes him BYC. As a result of his BYC status, his outgoing salary in the trade is to be either his previous salary, or 50% of the first year of his new contract, whichever is greater. And clearly, the previous salary was greater. So his outgoing salary was $6,864,200, and, because the Magic took no salary back, they got a TPE for that amount.

Thanks for the great explanation!

[JES12]

What kind of incentives could George have earned last year? A roster bonus? Literally, he was a nobody and earned nothing.

[Three34]

Like Dunk said, they were team performance incentives. It wasn't about what he did, it's what the Mavericks did. And because he was traded to a lesser team, the incentives no longer applied.