ryaningf wrote:...
I think you continue to misunderstand statistical analysis, as well as the phenomenon that white privilege attempts to describe. Both communities cited above are both highly isolated historically and exist in the US in statistically small #s--the Jewish population accounts for roughly 2% of the US population, while the Asian population accounts for 5%. The historical isolation of each group has served to isolate those cultures throughout time, allowing each to develop a history of high achievement and cultural persistence. Their relatively late arrival on the American scene, combined with their cultural strengths, and the overall societal pressures on each community to stay close and insulated even after immigration to the US (until the mid-20th century, when movement and marriage between races and cultures became somewhat normalized in certain parts of the US), all serve to make the two communities special cases whose success can be 'explained' along side the white privilege narrative--and thus don't necessarily 'disprove' it. Unlike Native Americans or African Americans, who had their entire culture stripped from them, and had their religious practices outlawed, among other atrocities, the Jewish and Asian populations were able to keep their cultural heritage during immigration and thus were afforded a head start in terms of their ability to succeed in a new world. White privilege accounts for the 'success gap' between whites and non-whites--part of that gap comes from the fact that the white culture systematically stripped non-whites of their culture as a condition of their existence in America. Other cultures immigrating after that period of culture destruction were sparred such a fate and have been more able to thrive as a result.
You keep asserting that white privilege accounts for gaps, but you offer only theory to back it up. If your white privilege assertion were true, then you should be able to point to a group who is lagging here in the U.S. and point to a country in their ancestral continent where they have developed a first world country and economy (without the burden of white privilege keeping them down). That ought to be pretty easy, and that's really all it would take to make me consider your white privilege theory at least worth considering. Well, there is one more thing; as I see academic success as the leading cause of success or failure, if lagging groups score the same in psychometric tests, be they ACT, SAT, etc, as the groups that they presently lag behind, and yet they still lagged behind economically, I'd take that as evidence that they are being discriminated against too. That's presently not the case. I don't want anyone to be discriminated against. But neither do I want whites maligned with spurious claims of racism and white privilege.
There's also a debate as to whether Jews are considered part of the non-Hispanic white majority in the US, or whether they should be considered their own group. Also, the term "Asian" seems pretty non-specific. But these are side concerns.
Agreed. Jews are just a sub-population of non-hispanic whites, but one with a very unique history of their own after the diaspora. There is evidence that they either were segregated from the host nations they were in, or chose to self-segregate. Whichever the case, there must have been something unique in their environment that selected for intelligence, because they consistently outshine every other group in IQ. Asians, more specifically NE Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) consistently outscore every other group except Ashkenazi Jews. These test results are repeated here in the U.S. and everywhere else that tests are taken. I think, correspondingly, these groups also do best economically and academically here in the states where they are all under the same system of government, and where any laws avantaging whites have long since been stricken from the books. In other words, where there is no systemic bias built in, the brightest among us rise to the top and achieve the greatest economic success, which is what happens with Jews and NE Asians on a group level here in the U.S., higher achievement than gentile whites, which to me, is clear evidence that there is no white privilege at play, or they'd not be outperforming whites.
ryan wrote:At this point, I think it might be helpful to think of where we each come from--I think I'm ready to concede that white privilege might not hold much sway in certain parts of the US--namely the northern east coast of the country. I also have a suspicion that Mencius and Pete, among others, live on the East Coast and thus are basing their skepticism of white privilege based on their own experience--i.e., if it doesn't exist on the East Coast, it's a failed theory. Assuming that's correct, I'd ask you to consider the rest of the country--specifically, those parts without much racial diversity, those parts without high Jewish, or Asian populations. If white privilege is a remnant of the dark ages, as Pete suggests, I'd counter with this--maybe where you live on the northern east coast of the US. But in the majority of the country, I'd submit that it's not.
No, I don't live in the NE. I've lived on the west coast, New England, Mid-Atlantic states, SE states, midwest, southwest, and overseas a few places.
So, "Socio-demographic studies demonstrate that higher crime rates occur in lower income and more densely populated communities and neighborhoods"? My whole point is that white privilege accounts for the success gap between white and non-white Americans and, therefore, since white privilege accounts for the disproportionate amount of African Americans living in lower income and more densely populated communities and neighborhoods, then it also leads to more African Americans going to jail. It doesn't matter if the police want to say that they target low-income communities because 'that's where the crime is'--the question is, why is a certain group disproportionately in those very same communities that the police target? It all goes back to effects of white privilege....
You keep making the same 'the reason is white privilege' assertions about income gaps, crime gaps, whatever gaps, with nothing to back it up. Only your belief that it is so. I think the biggest cause for success or failure is academic success backed by cognitive horsepower. It's the one crucial factor that cuts across all races. The brightest among us rise up, the others lag behind (generally speaking, and true no matter your race). When you're not moving up the ladder in traditional ways, i.e. school, education, etc, you seek out other avenues. Even the modestly smart can still make a decent living in trades and other legitimate work. If more technical jobs are beyond you, and you reject the more manual jobs, that pretty much leaves crime as the only avenue to make money, and these observations apply to all, in my view.
And about crime; it's committing more crime that leads to going to jail, not white privilege.
Like I said above, could it be that what you consider to be facts are just the product of living where you live? I mean, have you lived in the midwest? Or the American South? You've got your 'facts', you're labeling other people who don't agree with you as 'religious fanatics' and I'm just wondering--where do you live? I've lived in the midwest--and now I'm living in Boston in a predominately Salvadoran neighborhood.
Like I said, I've lived all over the U.S. as well as a few places overseas. My views are based on the overwhelming evidence that is everywhere and applying Occam's Razor to the evidence, which would be that unless compelling evidence makes you discard the easiest and most obvious reasons, then the burden of proof for extraordinary claims should be extraordinary evidence. In my view, 'white privilege' is an extraordinary claim. You have practically no evidence of it, let alone extraordinary evidence. Your argument seems to be, because there are group differences, it must be because of white privilege because that's what I believe. Not very persuasive. And I did not accuse you of being a religious fanatic, just that similar to a religious belief, your convictions about white privilege are obviously deeply held, and they are based solely on a belief that you cannot prove.
ryan wrote:I realize you've bowed out on this conversation, but I thank you too for your views and I'm glad we were able to communicate about an emotional topic without devolving into personal attacks--your views helped me further strengthen my own thoughts and have led me to consider that perhaps certain parts of the US might have gone beyond the effects of white privilege.
Sorry about bowing back in. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in (my best Al voice).
Clearly ryan, you and I aren't convincing each other of a thing. I think we could probably agree that we're to the point of repeating ourselves. Agree to disagree?
With things like height, speed, strength and skin color their are clear trade offs. For example - white skinned people process vitamin D more readily (and need less). Tall large people could better deal with certain enviroments but would need more food to survive. Fast individuals might be good at hunting certain game but lack stamina.. (Your muscle fibers are either fast twitch or slow twitch).. And so on and so forth.
