foye

[drewfogarty]

just wondering what will become of randy foye in WAshington. will he start at sg or do you see him getting limited minutes as a backup?

thanks

[WashWiz54]

Foye will have as much of a role as he proves he is worth. The SG position is up for grabs and if he proves himself worthy of starting he'll get the job. He'll probably already have the backup PG position locked up over J-Critt and Mike James, but SG won't be given up so easily. We have N1, DS2, Mike Miller and even Dominic McGuire fighting for minutes at that position.

If I had to guess I'd expect him to be our first guard off the bench for both point and shooting guard. Averaging somewhere in the 25 minute range give or take a couple.

[Kanyewest]

Yes it's an open competition but I think Foye ends up as the starting shooting guard and its his job to lose. I believe Foye was the primary target of trade, not MIller. Saunders has started smaller backcourts in the past (Brandon + Peeler and Brandon + Billups).

[crackhed]

guess i'm in the camp that sees foye's primary role as the backup point (but they'll see plenty of time together).

[dlts20]

I just dont see Foye having any chance of starting. If it was just about who's the starting SG then I think he would be it but its more about what's best for the team and he's definatly more needed as the backup to Gil or the 1st guard off the bench. I still think that our rotation in the backcourt will truly consist of Gil, Foye, Miller, & NY. Therefore Foye has to come off the bench because it doesnt really make sense for us to have NY & Miller coming off with our best 2 ball handlers starting. I think Miller starts at the 2 because he has good size, can rebound, and he is the best wide open shooter which we will need on the floor with the big 3. NY will be the instant offense Rip Hamilton type scorer off the bench with Foye being the lead guard. I think Miller starts but comes out after the first 8 or 9 minutes and then Foye comes in to play beside Gil. At the end of the quarter Gil sits and NY comes in with Caron staying at the 3. After 4 min into the 2nd quarter, Caron sits and Gil comes back in. Foye then moves to the 2 with NY at the 3. Later on Caron comes back in for NY and Miller for Foye at the very end. I know it wont exactly play out that way but I do think it will be close

[Hoopalotta]

I just dont see Foye having any chance of starting. If it was just about who's the starting SG then I think he would be it but its more about what's best for the team and he's definatly more needed as the backup to Gil or the 1st guard off the bench. I still think that our rotation in the backcourt will truly consist of Gil, Foye, Miller, & NY. Therefore Foye has to come off the bench because it doesnt really make sense for us to have NY & Miller coming off with our best 2 ball handlers starting. I think Miller starts at the 2 because he has good size, can rebound, and he is the best wide open shooter which we will need on the floor with the big 3.

Yeah, that pretty well covers it: if Foye starts, it means we're putting an inferior player into the rotation in either Crit or James. It's as yet uncertain who those minutes would be at the expense of, but it would almost certainly be one of Miller or Young. So Foye starting makes loads of sense in isolation, but under the circumstances, he would not only have to win the competition, he would have to win it by a wide enough margin to negate the talent waste we would be swallowing at the swing spots.

Yes it's an open competition but I think Foye ends up as the starting shooting guard and its his job to lose. I believe Foye was the primary target of trade, not MIller. Saunders has started smaller backcourts in the past (Brandon + Peeler and Brandon + Billups).

I do agree with this too though: Foye at 26 is a guy who can stick around here for a while. Next summer, a long term deal for Foye sounds a lot more reasonable than one for Miller (especially with Butler up for a deal the year after that at 31). Our man from 'Sota has Hughesian skills offensively, while being a better shooter and I too wouldn't blush at starting a small backcourt.

But with the balance of talent we have, I think it might be hard to start him this year. And while not really a point guard, if he can play the point with Miller and Butler on the court, the passing should be more than passable.

[Kanyewest]

If Foye does indeed start, it doesn't mean that guys like James or Crittenton will get minutes in the rotation. Foye could still see all of Arenas's minutes at the backup point guard position.

1st quarter
- 12:00- Arenas, Foye, Butler, Jamison, Haywood start
- 8:00- Young/Miller comes in for Foye
3:00- Foye comes in for Arenas

2nd quarter
- 9:00- Arenas comes in for Foye
- 4:00- Foye comes in for Young/Miller

BTW, I wonder if the Wizards coaching staff will be less inclined to give Foye major minutes since he's in a contract year.

[nate33]

If Foye does indeed start, it doesn't mean that guys like James or Crittenton will get minutes in the rotation. Foye could still see all of Arenas's minutes at the backup point guard position.

1st quarter
- 12:00- Arenas, Foye, Butler, Jamison, Haywood start
- 8:00- Young/Miller comes in for Foye
3:00- Foye comes in for Arenas

2nd quarter
- 9:00- Arenas comes in for Foye
- 4:00- Foye comes in for Young/Miller

BTW, I wonder if the Wizards coaching staff will be less inclined to give Foye major minutes since he's in a contract year.

Your premise is sound, but the timing is off. No coach will pull a starter after just 4 minutes of action.

Arenas and Foye start. Foye is benched after the first 6 or 7 minutes of the 1st quarter. Arenas plays the entire 1st Quarter. Foye starts at PG in the 2nd Quarter with Arenas getting a rest. Arenas comes back in 5 or 6 minutes in the 2nd Quarter and plays the rest of the half. When Arenas comes back in, Foye can either move to SG or sit back down, depending on how well Young or Miller are playing.

Here's a rotation breakdown graphically, focusing only on the PG, SG, and SF spots:

Code: Select all

    |      1ST QUARTER       |      2ND QUARTER       |
TIME|2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |
PG  |GA----------------------|RF----------GA----------|
SG  |RF----------NY----------|------MM----*-----------|
SF  |CB----------MM----------|CB----------------------|

* RF or NY could play in place of MM if they had a hot hand.

- Arenas and Butler each play a 12-minute stretch and a 6-minute stretch per half, 36 minutes total.
- Foye plays two 6-minute stretches per half for a total of 24 minutes
- Young plays one 9-minute stretch per half for a total of 18 minutes
- Miller plays a one 6-minute stretch and one 9-minute stretch per half, for a total of 30 minutes.
- Flip has the flexibility to go with the hot hand down the stretch because everybody should be pretty well rested with 6:00 to go in the half.

Clearly, I have too much time on my hands.

[LyricalRico]

^ Wow, great visual aid nate.

A bit OT but your breakdown could be used to back up my premise that Miller isn't purely a one year rental. If he does play 30 mpg and the team has success, why let him walk for nothing?

[REDardWIZskin]

^^ Looks good sounds good too Nate, time will tell. What about DS? is it possible we could see a resurrected 06-07 stevenson? if so where does he fit?

[Kanyewest]

^ Wow, great visual aid nate.

A bit OT but your breakdown could be used to back up my premise that Miller isn't purely a one year rental. If he does play 30 mpg and the team has success, why let him walk for nothing?

I assume the Wizards will try to keep him at a reasonable price if he is effective . But the Wizards will probably aim to re-sign Haywood and Foye first. You have to remember that the luxury tax could decrease anywhere from $60-65 million: the Wizards have $49 million commited in salary

[LyricalRico]

^ Wow, great visual aid nate.

A bit OT but your breakdown could be used to back up my premise that Miller isn't purely a one year rental. If he does play 30 mpg and the team has success, why let him walk for nothing?

I assume the Wizards will try to keep him at a reasonable price if he is effective . But the Wizards will probably aim to re-sign Haywood and Foye first. You have to remember that the luxury tax could decrease anywhere from $60-65 million: the Wizards have $49 million commited in salary

Oh sure, it'll be tough. But I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he's definitely not in the team's longterm plans, as some seem to think.

[dlts20]

If Foye does indeed start, it doesn't mean that guys like James or Crittenton will get minutes in the rotation. Foye could still see all of Arenas's minutes at the backup point guard position.

1st quarter
- 12:00- Arenas, Foye, Butler, Jamison, Haywood start
- 8:00- Young/Miller comes in for Foye
3:00- Foye comes in for Arenas

2nd quarter
- 9:00- Arenas comes in for Foye
- 4:00- Foye comes in for Young/Miller

BTW, I wonder if the Wizards coaching staff will be less inclined to give Foye major minutes since he's in a contract year.

Your premise is sound, but the timing is off. No coach will pull a starter after just 4 minutes of action.

Arenas and Foye start. Foye is benched after the first 6 or 7 minutes of the 1st quarter. Arenas plays the entire 1st Quarter. Foye starts at PG in the 2nd Quarter with Arenas getting a rest. Arenas comes back in 5 or 6 minutes in the 2nd Quarter and plays the rest of the half. When Arenas comes back in, Foye can either move to SG or sit back down, depending on how well Young or Miller are playing.

Here's a rotation breakdown graphically, focusing only on the PG, SG, and SF spots:

Code: Select all

    |      1ST QUARTER       |      2ND QUARTER       |
TIME|2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |
PG  |GA----------------------|RF----------GA----------|
SG  |RF----------NY----------|------MM----*-----------|
SF  |CB----------MM----------|CB----------------------|

* RF or NY could play in place of MM if they had a hot hand.

- Arenas and Butler each play a 12-minute stretch and a 6-minute stretch per half, 36 minutes total.
- Foye plays two 6-minute stretches per half for a total of 24 minutes
- Young plays one 9-minute stretch per half for a total of 18 minutes
- Miller plays a one 6-minute stretch and one 9-minute stretch per half, for a total of 30 minutes.
- Flip has the flexibility to go with the hot hand down the stretch because everybody should be pretty well rested with 6:00 to go in the half.

Clearly, I have too much time on my hands.

I had thought about that scenerio alot too but I just dont think its consistent enough. By that I mean that I agree with you 110% that no coach would pull a starter after 4min unless its a Ginobli type situation with a bum starting but I also dont think that a coach wants to pull a guy after 6 or 7 minutes either. Meaning, could you truly count on Foye playing his best ball if he knew that he was going to come out after 6min. I know he knows that he's coming back in but thats still a little choppy for me. Playing a guy 6min at a time leads him to play erratic but it could work. Its a 50/50 thing for me. However, I definatly wouldnt be upset if we went that route. As long as the rotation is Gil, Miller, NY, & Foye then Im fine with whatever they do. Just dont like Critt, MJ, or DS get in. I actually like all those guys but they dont deserve to play over those other 4

[nate33]

I had thought about that scenerio alot too but I just dont think its consistent enough. By that I mean that I agree with you 110% that no coach would pull a starter after 4min unless its a Ginobli type situation with a bum starting but I also dont think that a coach wants to pull a guy after 6 or 7 minutes either. Meaning, could you truly count on Foye playing his best ball if he knew that he was going to come out after 6min. I know he knows that he's coming back in but thats still a little choppy for me. Playing a guy 6min at a time leads him to play erratic but it could work. Its a 50/50 thing for me. However, I definatly wouldnt be upset if we went that route. As long as the rotation is Gil, Miller, NY, & Foye then Im fine with whatever they do. Just dont like Critt, MJ, or DS get in. I actually like all those guys but they dont deserve to play over those other 4

You can shift all the substitutions 2 minutes later if that's the way you want to do it. i.e. Foye plays the first 8 minutes, Arenas plays the first 12 minutes plus the first 2 minutes of the 2nd quarter. The end result is the same.

[Hoopalotta]

Arenas and Foye start. Foye is benched after the first 6 or 7 minutes of the 1st quarter. Arenas plays the entire 1st Quarter. Foye starts at PG in the 2nd Quarter with Arenas getting a rest. Arenas comes back in 5 or 6 minutes in the 2nd Quarter and plays the rest of the half. When Arenas comes back in, Foye can either move to SG or sit back down, depending on how well Young or Miller are playing.

Here's a rotation breakdown graphically, focusing only on the PG, SG, and SF spots:

Code: Select all

    |      1ST QUARTER       |      2ND QUARTER       |
TIME|2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |
PG  |GA----------------------|RF----------GA----------|
SG  |RF----------NY----------|------MM----*-----------|
SF  |CB----------MM----------|CB----------------------|

* RF or NY could play in place of MM if they had a hot hand.

- Arenas and Butler each play a 12-minute stretch and a 6-minute stretch per half, 36 minutes total.
- Foye plays two 6-minute stretches per half for a total of 24 minutes
- Young plays one 9-minute stretch per half for a total of 18 minutes
- Miller plays a one 6-minute stretch and one 9-minute stretch per half, for a total of 30 minutes.
- Flip has the flexibility to go with the hot hand down the stretch because everybody should be pretty well rested with 6:00 to go in the half.

Clearly, I have too much time on my hands.

That is a very nice looking graph there, but I just can't see it. To me it looks like a rigid, lock step rotation that still only gets Foye 24 guaranteed minutes a game anyway, not counting the possible end of half minutes. He may be able to surpass that coming off the bench.

With that flow chart, it must work like that basically every game regardless of what's happening on the court; not a lot of room to swing things around for match up purposes or different looks, which could be done easily with him off the bench. I would have to look around, but I doubt there are many, if any, teams in the league that start their back up point at the 2 AND bring a pair - a pair!- of wings off the bench, both of whom will get some minutes at 2-guard and neither of whom can play with each other under any circumstances (at guard) AND don't have another point guard in the rotation. I just don't think anyone does that, its too clunky and cumbersome, like slipping on Frankenstein's shoes.

Of course there's always the chance that the bigs out perform Young, with Jamison then swinging for some back up minutes behind Butler. Then Miller's a guard, period. Maybe it would work with a three man rotation.

(snip) Foye has to come off the bench because it doesn't really make sense for us to have NY & Miller coming off with our best 2 ball handlers starting.

I think this says it quite nicely. Young and Foye off the bench with Miller and Arenas starting just looks like symmetry and balance of skills. We can mix n' match, flip n' flop. It is theoretically possible to do it otherwise, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

(as an aside, it just hit me that with an Argentinian and Flip around, we really do have Flip-Flop! I'm sensing a graphic coming)

[Hoopalotta]

You can shift all the substitutions 2 minutes later if that's the way you want to do it. i.e. Foye plays the first 8 minutes, Arenas plays the first 12 minutes plus the first 2 minutes of the 2nd quarter. The end result is the same.

Under that scenario though, it would be real tempting to bring Arenas back at the six minute mark of the 2nd & especially 4th the quarter. I just don't see Arenas sitting for the 3rd through 8th minutes of the fourth; that's winning time. And then we're getting into the area where Gilbert could be at 40 minutes a game. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I'm really hoping for 36-ish for him with nothing over a twelve minute stretch.