Elway > Favre all time?

[th87]

Whenever there is a discussion regarding the top QBs of all time, I often hear Elway's name come up before Favre's. I wonder why that is.

Yes, I know all about the Elway legend about how he could come back from 4th quarter deficits like it was second-nature, and mentioning anything like The Drive is synonymous with Elway's heroics. Maybe it's because he has these defining moments that people can look back on him fondly as being one of the best of all time.

Because when I investigate his career, I don't come away THAT impressed.

1. The myth of Favre's egregiously high interception total:

You may say Favre has thrown too many interceptions to be considered better than Elway. I beg to differ. In investigating, I looked at the pass attempt to interception ratio. What I found:

Favre: 30.36 pass attempts per interception
Elway: 32.07 pass attempts per interception

So clearly, the difference is extremely negligible. Next, I calculated the TD to interception ratio:

Favre: 1.527 touchdowns per interception
Elway: 1.327 touchdowns per interception

Favre blows Elway out in this regard. It is also noteworthy that Favre has 49 more interceptions than Elway, but has thrown for 120 more touchdowns!

2. Analysis of Favre's and Elway's statistical numbers:

A brief statistical summary of Elway's career:

TD Int Yards Comp%
1983: 7 14 1663 48
1984: 18 15 2598 56
1985: 22 23 3891 54
1986: 19 13 3485 56
1987: 19 12 3198 55
1988: 17 19 3309 55
1989: 18 18 3051 54
1990: 15 14 3526 59
1991: 13 12 3253 54
1992:10 17 2242 55
1993: 25 10 4030 63
1994: 16 10 3490 62
1995: 26 14 3970 58
1996: 26 14 3328 62
1997: 27 11 3635 56
1998: 22 10 2806 59

As we see, Elway often threw more interceptions than touchdowns well into his career. After his rookie year, the first occurrence is in year 3, followed by year 6 (equal in year 7), and year 10, which was a complete meltdown. The years in between are very close, in that there was no defining amazing statistical year. He averaged TD numbers in the teens! He finally started to get it together in year 11, which was a great year for him, and he was basically the only player on offense. Year 12 saw a decline, despite the arrival of Pro Bowler Anthony Miller. However, things started to look up in 1995. So what happened in 1995?

a. Mike Shanahan was hired.
b. Terrell Davis was drafted and put up 1100 yards in his rookie year.

It can then be assumed that Elway's career took off under Shanahan's tutelage, and with the game-breaking ability of Terrell Davis, arguably the league's best RB during that brief time period. Of course, we can't take Elway's amazing numbers away as a result of this, but it is interesting to note that his best numbers came when asked to carry less of a load, and having a great mind to guide him.

A brief statistical summary of Favre's career:

TD Int Yards Comp%
1991: 0 2 0 0
1992: 18 13 3227 64
1993: 19 24 3303 61
1994: 33 14 3882 62
1995: 38 13 4413 63
1996: 39 13 3899 60
1997: 35 16 3867 60
1998: 31 23 4212 63
1999: 22 23 4091 57
2000: 20 16 3812 28
2001: 32 15 3921 62
2002: 27 16 3658 62
2003: 32 21 3361 65
2004: 30 17 4088 64
2005: 20 29 3881 61
2006: 18 18 3885 56
2007: 6* 2* 861* 64*

In year 4, Favre's numbers have been absolutely monstrous. Favre has 9 entire seasons in which he's equaled or surpassed Elway's highest season touchdown total. He's averaged TD totals in the thirties (compared to Elway's teens). That is nothing to sneeze at. After his rookie year, Favre has only had three seasons in which he's had more interceptions than touchdowns. There was that egregious 29 interception year. Why did that happen?

a. Favre lost Javon Walker, Donald Driver, Ahman Green, Najeh Davenport, Robert Ferguson, Mike Flanagan, Mike Wahle, and Marco Rivera from his offense, either due to injury or free agency. The loss of eight starters, four of which were Pro-Bowlers or close would have a tremendous impact on a QB's numbers.
b. To replace these starters, the Packers started Taco Wallace, Andrae Thurman, Samkon Gado, Scott Wells, Will Whitticker, and Adrian Klemm. Four of these players are no longer in the NFL.

It can then be assumed that on a team in which Favre was unnaturally asked to shoulder the entire load, he suffered statistically. Now could this be a result of his diminishing skills? It could be. But the more reasonable assumption was that his NFL-caliber supporting cast was replaced by an NFL Europe-caliber supporting cast. The fact that Favre, just a season prior (2004), enjoyed a monster statistical season seems to bear this out. Nobody loses their skills in one season. It appears that Favre was simply forced to gamble just to keep the games close (to make up for his supporting cast), and as can be seen, the results were poor. His "sudden resurgence" is not at all surprising; he simply now has a good defense and pretty good receivers to rely on.

How about the playoffs? Favre has thrown for 34 touchdowns and 26 interceptions, while amassing 4902 yards. Elway has 27 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, and 4964 yards.

In sum, Favre's statistics have dwarfed those of Elway, and Favre comes out ahead in every statistical category. Even the interceptions (for which Favre has built a reputation) are not egregiously higher in number (given the production) than Elway's.

Rushing? Elway has 3407 rushing yards and 33 touchdowns. Favre has 1771 yards and 13 touchdowns. Elway has an advantage there, but is it really enough to catapult him in front of Favre?

3. Analysis of Favre's and Elway's careers:

For Elway:

1983: Rookie year in which Elway played in 11 games. The Broncos (9-7) played in Wild Card game, in which they were blown out by the 9-7 Seattle Seahawks.

1984: Broncos went 13-3, but lost to a 9-7 Steelers squad, who ended up losing to the Dolphins in the AFC Championship game.

1985: Broncos went 11-5, but did not reach the playoffs, because of a very strong AFC East.

1986: Broncos went 11-5, beating the 11-5 New England Patriots, and then the 12-4 Cleveland Browns (coached by the star-crossed Schottenheimer). They then got hammered by the New York Giants in the Super Bowl.

1987: Broncos went 10-4-1, beating the 9-6 Houston Oilers, and the 10-5 Cleveland Browns. They were blown out by the Redskins in the Super Bowl.

1988: Broncos went 8-8.

1989: Broncos went 11-5, beating the 9-7 Steelers, and the 9-6-1 Browns to reach the Super Bowl. There, they were crushed 55-10 by the 49ers juggernaut.

1990: Broncos went 5-11.

1991: Broncos went 12-4, beating a very good 11-5 Oilers team, and then losing to the Buffalo Bills in the AFC Championship Game.

1992: Broncos went 8-8.

1993: Broncos went 9-7, losing to the 10-6 Raiders, who eventually lost to the Bills in the AFC Championship.

1994: Broncos went 7-9.

1995: Broncos went 8-8.

1996: Broncos went 13-3, losing to the 9-7 Jacksonville Jaguars, who lost to the Patriots in the AFC Championship.

1997: Broncos went 12-4, beating the 11-5 Jaguars, the 13-3 Chiefs (poor Schottenheimer), the 11-5 Steelers, and then beating the 13-3 Packers in the Super Bowl.

1998: Broncos went 14-2, destroying very good Dolphins, Jets, and Falcons squads to win the Super Bowl.

So in sum, Elway's teams have made the playoffs in 10 seasons. He has 11 winning seasons. 5 non-winning seasons. He has a very good 14-8 playoff record, owing to the fact that generally once the Broncos made the playoffs, they usually made it to the Super Bowl. This is certainly to Elway's credit - he came up big in big games.

However, it would be wrong to ignore the fact that the AFC was far, far weaker than the NFC. Therefore, it would have been much easier for Elway to advance, as he faced lesser teams. Indeed, the Broncos were able to dispatch relatively inferior teams to make it to their Super Bowls, only to get destroyed by the NFC representatives. Given the lopsided scores, and the amount of times it happened, it is safe to say that Elway enjoyed success in a weaker conference. Of course, this doesn't take away from his accomplishments, but given the circumstances, it is doubtful that he would have been able to achieve as much success playing the Giants, Redskins, Cowboys, 49ers, Rams, Bears, and Eagles of the NFC.

For Favre:

1992: The Packers went 9-7.

1993: The Packers went 9-7, beating the 10-6 Detroit Lions, and then losing to the eventual Super Bowl champion Cowboys.

1994: The Packers again went 9-7, beating the 9-7 Lions, and losing to the 12-4 Cowboys, who lost to eventual Super Bowl winner San Francisco in the NFC Championship.

1995: The Packers went 11-5, beating the 9-7 Falcons, the 11-5 49ers, and then losing the NFC Championship to the Dallas Cowboys, who eventually went on to beat the Steelers in the Super Bowl.

1996: The Packers went 13-3, beating the 12-4 49ers and 12-4 Carolina Panthers, en route to winning the Super Bowl against the New England Patriots.

1997: The Packers went 13-3, beating the 10-6 Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the 13-3 49ers, and then lost to Denver in the Super Bowl.

1998: The Packers went 11-5, losing to the 12-4 49ers in the playoffs.

1999: The Packers went 8-8.

2000: The Packers went 9-7.

2001: The Packers went 12-4, beating the 12-4 49ers, and then losing to the 14-2 Rams juggernaut in the playoffs.

2002: The Packers went 12-4, being upset by the Atlanta Falcons.

2003: The Packers went 10-6, beating the 10-6 Seattle Seahawks, and then losing (in embarrassingly improbable fashion) to the 12-4 Eagles.

2004: The Packers went 10-6, losing to the Minnesota Vikings in the playoffs.

2005: The Packers went 4-12.

2006: The Packers went 8-8.

Favre has 12 winning seasons, 3 non-winning seasons. He has an 11-9 playoff record. However, Favre has faced better playoff competition, facing Dallas and San Francisco in their heydays, and then meeting the Greatest Show on Turf on another occasion. Recent playoff appearances have not been as successful, owing to a number of factors, including poor Favre performances, a fluke 4th and 26 play, injuries to receivers, and injuries to defense on another occasion. Of course, these are not excuses, but they paint a more complete picture. Elway also had to deal with poor playoff performances, albeit earlier in his career. Later on, as mentioned before, his team was markedly better than Favre's, so Elway was able to ride his juggernaut team, win, and ride off into the sunset. Favre has not had the luxury of a Terrell Davis, etc. in his recent playoff years.
___

So in conclusion, I don't see how Elway would be considered better than Favre all-time. Elway has had poor playoff performances, and could not win the big one until getting a Hall-of-Fame caliber RB (injury notwithstanding) and a very strong supporting cast otherwise. Elway also beat up on comparatively weak AFC teams in the regular season and playoffs, only to get absolutely destroyed by the NFC representative in the Super Bowl. This tells me that he did not face particularly great competition during his earlier years.

Whereas Favre had to deal with teams that eventually ended up winning the Super Bowl (Elway has never done that). Favre has also had poor playoff performances, but this too had something to do with a not-so-strong supporting cast. When he had the luxury of a better supporting cast, he also won the Super Bowl (while posting better numbers doing so). He's had to face and beat better NFC teams (NFC teams had won a decade worth of Super Bowls in a row).

Therefore, Elway's playoff success is slightly overrated historically, whereas Favre's is underrated. I'd then put them at similar standings in terms of post-season performance.

However, when it comes down to statistics and records, Favre absolutely destroys Elway's numbers in nearly every category. With wins and winning seasons, Favre also has the advantage. With attempts, completions, touchdowns, and yards, it's not even close. And Favre enjoys a far better TD/Int ratio.

Ergo, Favre is the better quarterback all-time, in my opinion.

[Elway=GOAT]

Whenever there is a discussion regarding the top QBs of all time, I often hear Elway's name come up before Favre's. I wonder why that is.

Yes, I know all about the Elway legend about how he could come back from 4th quarter deficits like it was second-nature, and mentioning anything like The Drive is synonymous with Elway's heroics. Maybe it's because he has these defining moments that people can look back on him fondly as being one of the best of all time.

Because when I investigate his career, I don't come away THAT impressed.

1. The myth of Favre's egregiously high interception total:

You may say Favre has thrown too many interceptions to be considered better than Elway. I beg to differ. In investigating, I looked at the pass attempt to interception ratio. What I found:

Favre: 30.36 pass attempts per interception
Elway: 32.07 pass attempts per interception

So clearly, the difference is extremely negligible. Next, I calculated the TD to interception ratio:

Favre: 1.527 touchdowns per interception
Elway: 1.327 touchdowns per interception

Favre blows Elway out in this regard. It is also noteworthy that Favre has 49 more interceptions than Elway, but has thrown for 120 more touchdowns!

2. Analysis of Favre's and Elway's statistical numbers:

A brief statistical summary of Elway's career:

TD Int Yards Comp%
1983: 7 14 1663 48
1984: 18 15 2598 56
1985: 22 23 3891 54
1986: 19 13 3485 56
1987: 19 12 3198 55
1988: 17 19 3309 55
1989: 18 18 3051 54
1990: 15 14 3526 59
1991: 13 12 3253 54
1992:10 17 2242 55
1993: 25 10 4030 63
1994: 16 10 3490 62
1995: 26 14 3970 58
1996: 26 14 3328 62
1997: 27 11 3635 56
1998: 22 10 2806 59

As we see, Elway often threw more interceptions than touchdowns well into his career. After his rookie year, the first occurrence is in year 3, followed by year 6 (equal in year 7), and year 10, which was a complete meltdown. The years in between are very close, in that there was no defining amazing statistical year. He averaged TD numbers in the teens! He finally started to get it together in year 11, which was a great year for him, and he was basically the only player on offense. Year 12 saw a decline, despite the arrival of Pro Bowler Anthony Miller. However, things started to look up in 1995. So what happened in 1995?

a. Mike Shanahan was hired.
b. Terrell Davis was drafted and put up 1100 yards in his rookie year.

It can then be assumed that Elway's career took off under Shanahan's tutelage, and with the game-breaking ability of Terrell Davis, arguably the league's best RB during that brief time period. Of course, we can't take Elway's amazing numbers away as a result of this, but it is interesting to note that his best numbers came when asked to carry less of a load, and having a great mind to guide him.

A brief statistical summary of Favre's career:

TD Int Yards Comp%
1991: 0 2 0 0
1992: 18 13 3227 64
1993: 19 24 3303 61
1994: 33 14 3882 62
1995: 38 13 4413 63
1996: 39 13 3899 60
1997: 35 16 3867 60
1998: 31 23 4212 63
1999: 22 23 4091 57
2000: 20 16 3812 28
2001: 32 15 3921 62
2002: 27 16 3658 62
2003: 32 21 3361 65
2004: 30 17 4088 64
2005: 20 29 3881 61
2006: 18 18 3885 56
2007: 6* 2* 861* 64*

In year 4, Favre's numbers have been absolutely monstrous. Favre has 9 entire seasons in which he's equaled or surpassed Elway's highest season touchdown total. He's averaged TD totals in the thirties (compared to Elway's teens). That is nothing to sneeze at. After his rookie year, Favre has only had three seasons in which he's had more interceptions than touchdowns. There was that egregious 29 interception year. Why did that happen?

a. Favre lost Javon Walker, Donald Driver, Ahman Green, Najeh Davenport, Robert Ferguson, Mike Flanagan, Mike Wahle, and Marco Rivera from his offense, either due to injury or free agency. The loss of eight starters, four of which were Pro-Bowlers or close would have a tremendous impact on a QB's numbers.
b. To replace these starters, the Packers started Taco Wallace, Andrae Thurman, Samkon Gado, Scott Wells, Will Whitticker, and Adrian Klemm. Four of these players are no longer in the NFL.

It can then be assumed that on a team in which Favre was unnaturally asked to shoulder the entire load, he suffered statistically. Now could this be a result of his diminishing skills? It could be. But the more reasonable assumption was that his NFL-caliber supporting cast was replaced by an NFL Europe-caliber supporting cast. The fact that Favre, just a season prior (2004), enjoyed a monster statistical season seems to bear this out. Nobody loses their skills in one season. It appears that Favre was simply forced to gamble just to keep the games close (to make up for his supporting cast), and as can be seen, the results were poor. His "sudden resurgence" is not at all surprising; he simply now has a good defense and pretty good receivers to rely on.

How about the playoffs? Favre has thrown for 34 touchdowns and 26 interceptions, while amassing 4902 yards. Elway has 27 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, and 4964 yards.

In sum, Favre's statistics have dwarfed those of Elway, and Favre comes out ahead in every statistical category. Even the interceptions (for which Favre has built a reputation) are not egregiously higher in number (given the production) than Elway's.

Rushing? Elway has 3407 rushing yards and 33 touchdowns. Favre has 1771 yards and 13 touchdowns. Elway has an advantage there, but is it really enough to catapult him in front of Favre?

3. Analysis of Favre's and Elway's careers:

For Elway:

1983: Rookie year in which Elway played in 11 games. The Broncos (9-7) played in Wild Card game, in which they were blown out by the 9-7 Seattle Seahawks.

1984: Broncos went 13-3, but lost to a 9-7 Steelers squad, who ended up losing to the Dolphins in the AFC Championship game.

1985: Broncos went 11-5, but did not reach the playoffs, because of a very strong AFC East.

1986: Broncos went 11-5, beating the 11-5 New England Patriots, and then the 12-4 Cleveland Browns (coached by the star-crossed Schottenheimer). They then got hammered by the New York Giants in the Super Bowl.

1987: Broncos went 10-4-1, beating the 9-6 Houston Oilers, and the 10-5 Cleveland Browns. They were blown out by the Redskins in the Super Bowl.

1988: Broncos went 8-8.

1989: Broncos went 11-5, beating the 9-7 Steelers, and the 9-6-1 Browns to reach the Super Bowl. There, they were crushed 55-10 by the 49ers juggernaut.

1990: Broncos went 5-11.

1991: Broncos went 12-4, beating a very good 11-5 Oilers team, and then losing to the Buffalo Bills in the AFC Championship Game.

1992: Broncos went 8-8.

1993: Broncos went 9-7, losing to the 10-6 Raiders, who eventually lost to the Bills in the AFC Championship.

1994: Broncos went 7-9.

1995: Broncos went 8-8.

1996: Broncos went 13-3, losing to the 9-7 Jacksonville Jaguars, who lost to the Patriots in the AFC Championship.

1997: Broncos went 12-4, beating the 11-5 Jaguars, the 13-3 Chiefs (poor Schottenheimer), the 11-5 Steelers, and then beating the 13-3 Packers in the Super Bowl.

1998: Broncos went 14-2, destroying very good Dolphins, Jets, and Falcons squads to win the Super Bowl.

So in sum, Elway's teams have made the playoffs in 10 seasons. He has 11 winning seasons. 5 non-winning seasons. He has a very good 14-8 playoff record, owing to the fact that generally once the Broncos made the playoffs, they usually made it to the Super Bowl. This is certainly to Elway's credit - he came up big in big games.

However, it would be wrong to ignore the fact that the AFC was far, far weaker than the NFC. Therefore, it would have been much easier for Elway to advance, as he faced lesser teams. Indeed, the Broncos were able to dispatch relatively inferior teams to make it to their Super Bowls, only to get destroyed by the NFC representatives. Given the lopsided scores, and the amount of times it happened, it is safe to say that Elway enjoyed success in a weaker conference. Of course, this doesn't take away from his accomplishments, but given the circumstances, it is doubtful that he would have been able to achieve as much success playing the Giants, Redskins, Cowboys, 49ers, Rams, Bears, and Eagles of the NFC.

For Favre:

1992: The Packers went 9-7.

1993: The Packers went 9-7, beating the 10-6 Detroit Lions, and then losing to the eventual Super Bowl champion Cowboys.

1994: The Packers again went 9-7, beating the 9-7 Lions, and losing to the 12-4 Cowboys, who lost to eventual Super Bowl winner San Francisco in the NFC Championship.

1995: The Packers went 11-5, beating the 9-7 Falcons, the 11-5 49ers, and then losing the NFC Championship to the Dallas Cowboys, who eventually went on to beat the Steelers in the Super Bowl.

1996: The Packers went 13-3, beating the 12-4 49ers and 12-4 Carolina Panthers, en route to winning the Super Bowl against the New England Patriots.

1997: The Packers went 13-3, beating the 10-6 Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the 13-3 49ers, and then lost to Denver in the Super Bowl.

1998: The Packers went 11-5, losing to the 12-4 49ers in the playoffs.

1999: The Packers went 8-8.

2000: The Packers went 9-7.

2001: The Packers went 12-4, beating the 12-4 49ers, and then losing to the 14-2 Rams juggernaut in the playoffs.

2002: The Packers went 12-4, being upset by the Atlanta Falcons.

2003: The Packers went 10-6, beating the 10-6 Seattle Seahawks, and then losing (in embarrassingly improbable fashion) to the 12-4 Eagles.

2004: The Packers went 10-6, losing to the Minnesota Vikings in the playoffs.

2005: The Packers went 4-12.

2006: The Packers went 8-8.

Favre has 12 winning seasons, 3 non-winning seasons. He has an 11-9 playoff record. However, Favre has faced better playoff competition, facing Dallas and San Francisco in their heydays, and then meeting the Greatest Show on Turf on another occasion. Recent playoff appearances have not been as successful, owing to a number of factors, including poor Favre performances, a fluke 4th and 26 play, injuries to receivers, and injuries to defense on another occasion. Of course, these are not excuses, but they paint a more complete picture. Elway also had to deal with poor playoff performances, albeit earlier in his career. Later on, as mentioned before, his team was markedly better than Favre's, so Elway was able to ride his juggernaut team, win, and ride off into the sunset. Favre has not had the luxury of a Terrell Davis, etc. in his recent playoff years.
___

So in conclusion, I don't see how Elway would be considered better than Favre all-time. Elway has had poor playoff performances, and could not win the big one until getting a Hall-of-Fame caliber RB (injury notwithstanding) and a very strong supporting cast otherwise. Elway also beat up on comparatively weak AFC teams in the regular season and playoffs, only to get absolutely destroyed by the NFC representative in the Super Bowl. This tells me that he did not face particularly great competition during his earlier years.

Whereas Favre had to deal with teams that eventually ended up winning the Super Bowl (Elway has never done that). Favre has also had poor playoff performances, but this too had something to do with a not-so-strong supporting cast. When he had the luxury of a better supporting cast, he also won the Super Bowl (while posting better numbers doing so). He's had to face and beat better NFC teams (NFC teams had won a decade worth of Super Bowls in a row).

Therefore, Elway's playoff success is slightly overrated historically, whereas Favre's is underrated. I'd then put them at similar standings in terms of post-season performance.

However, when it comes down to statistics and records, Favre absolutely destroys Elway's numbers in nearly every category. With wins and winning seasons, Favre also has the advantage. With attempts, completions, touchdowns, and yards, it's not even close. And Favre enjoys a far better TD/Int ratio.

Ergo, Favre is the better quarterback all-time, in my opinion.

Favre also won three mvp's to Elways one. You left out, the fact that Elway was much more mobile, and made plays with his feet. But its not like he was Vick, who didnt take the time to read defense, if Crumpler was coverd Vick pretty much just took off. Elway made plays when he had too. Had a similar impact to Vick, and Vince Young for there repective teams. The ability he had to make plays when they matter, with his legs or or arm is imo what makes him the GOAT. Not that Farve didnt, but Elway was notorious for playing terrible for the first quarter or two. Then becoming lights out in the 4th.

http://www.johnelway.com/career.aspx

148 games won as a starting quarterback

[th87]

Thanks for the very balanced response. No doubt that Elway should be considered one of the best ever, but I think Favre gets screwed over as a result of his recent playoff performances, to the benefit of Elway.

And yes, Favre definitely has to shoulder some blame regarding the playoff meltdowns. Part of that is due to injuries, and another large part is that he seemed to be playing in a bit of a fog for the last few games. Notably against the Vikings, Eagles, and Rams.

However, I can't say that these three games should define his career. Sports is a very what-have-you-done-for-me-lately enterprise, and lately, Favre has not delivered at the level he once did. And that's why his legacy has been unfairly (IMO) diminished.

In contrast, Elway's legacy has been greatly enhanced in recent years. Owing to the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately mindset. Recent memory recalls Elway helicoptering his way to a Super Bowl victory, and then blowing out the Falcons the next year. That's how history will remember him, because that's the most recent thing people have seen.

Though that might be fair, it wouldn't really tell the whole story. Elway did not win without a loaded team. It's when that team became very, very good in all facets that Elway finally won. If there was no Terrell Davis, it's very possible that John Elway gets put at the same level as Jim Kelly. And Jim Kelly is never considered anywhere near the level of top QBs (also unfairly).

That's not to say anyone should ignore the Bronco Super Bowl victories. But I definitely think that they boost his legacy more than they should. It wasn't only Elway's team then. When it was Elway's team, he beat up on a weaker AFC (impressive in itself, of course), and then got stomped in the Super Bowl. What if people actually remembered that instead? That legacy constituted a larger percentage of his career. If that were the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Elway being the only going to the hall is very impressive. However, as you said, Sharpe will join him there, and Davis certainly would have, if he knees had cooperated. For Favre, his only teammate is Reggie White. An argument can be made as to which is more impressive.

So in similar fashion, Favre never really had much talent around him either. Edgar Bennett was a RB - probably on par with Winder (who did make a Pro Bowl, I believe). The receivers, Brooks, Freeman, Schroeder, Driver - though good, I highly doubt any team went out of their way to game plan against them. It's also noteworthy that Freeman and Schroeder bombed when they left the Packers (Brooks did too, but he was old by then). So it can be argued that Favre made those receivers better than they really were.

Elway was definitely clutch - no argument there. More than Favre too. However, Elway has 47 4th quarter comebacks, whereas Favre has 38. Elway has more, but is that really enough to vault him past Favre considering everything else?

As far as running, it's true that Elway was the better athlete and could run for a score. But as far as playmaking, Favre is just as good at that as Elway, if not better. Except he did it with his arm. Favre may not be fast, but he's extremely deft at avoiding sacks and finding the open receiver. That was his bread and butter, really. There was this play in Carolina, where Favre was forced all the way right, and came all the way left, threw across his body, and found the open receiver in the end zone. From 30 yards out! That's vintage Favre. What he lacked in running speed, he more than made up for in escapability. It shows in the touchdown totals.

One possible advantage that I will give Elway is that he seemed cooler under pressure. I don't remember every game obviously, and I'd have to investigate this to see if it's true, but from what I recall, he rarely got rattled. Not that Favre does either, but sometimes, I've seen him get jittery. Elway may have gotten jittery too, so I'll have to someday investigate this.

[NeedsMoreCheese]

True story, John Elway's middle name is actually Fumble.

[NeedsMoreCheese]

Thanks for the very balanced response. No doubt that Elway should be considered one of the best ever, but I think Favre gets screwed over as a result of his recent playoff performances, to the benefit of Elway.

And yes, Favre definitely has to shoulder some blame regarding the playoff meltdowns. Part of that is due to injuries, and another large part is that he seemed to be playing in a bit of a fog for the last few games. Notably against the Vikings, Eagles, and Rams.

However, I can't say that these three games should define his career. Sports is a very what-have-you-done-for-me-lately enterprise, and lately, Favre has not delivered at the level he once did. And that's why his legacy has been unfairly (IMO) diminished.

In contrast, Elway's legacy has been greatly enhanced in recent years. Owing to the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately mindset. Recent memory recalls Elway helicoptering his way to a Super Bowl victory, and then blowing out the Falcons the next year. That's how history will remember him, because that's the most recent thing people have seen.

Though that might be fair, it wouldn't really tell the whole story. Elway did not win without a loaded team. It's when that team became very, very good in all facets that Elway finally won. If there was no Terrell Davis, it's very possible that John Elway gets put at the same level as Jim Kelly. And Jim Kelly is never considered anywhere near the level of top QBs (also unfairly).

That's not to say anyone should ignore the Bronco Super Bowl victories. But I definitely think that they boost his legacy more than they should. It wasn't only Elway's team then. When it was Elway's team, he beat up on a weaker AFC (impressive in itself, of course), and then got stomped in the Super Bowl. What if people actually remembered that instead? That legacy constituted a larger percentage of his career. If that were the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Elway being the only going to the hall is very impressive. However, as you said, Sharpe will join him there, and Davis certainly would have, if he knees had cooperated. For Favre, his only teammate is Reggie White. An argument can be made as to which is more impressive.

So in similar fashion, Favre never really had much talent around him either. Edgar Bennett was a RB - probably on par with Winder (who did make a Pro Bowl, I believe). The receivers, Brooks, Freeman, Schroeder, Driver - though good, I highly doubt any team went out of their way to game plan against them. It's also noteworthy that Freeman and Schroeder bombed when they left the Packers (Brooks did too, but he was old by then). So it can be argued that Favre made those receivers better than they really were.

Elway was definitely clutch - no argument there. More than Favre too. However, Elway has 47 4th quarter comebacks, whereas Favre has 38. Elway has more, but is that really enough to vault him past Favre considering everything else?

As far as running, it's true that Elway was the better athlete and could run for a score. But as far as playmaking, Favre is just as good at that as Elway, if not better. Except he did it with his arm. Favre may not be fast, but he's extremely deft at avoiding sacks and finding the open receiver. That was his bread and butter, really. There was this play in Carolina, where Favre was forced all the way right, and came all the way left, threw across his body, and found the open receiver in the end zone. From 30 yards out! That's vintage Favre. What he lacked in running speed, he more than made up for in escapability. It shows in the touchdown totals.

One possible advantage that I will give Elway is that he seemed cooler under pressure. I don't remember every game obviously, and I'd have to investigate this to see if it's true, but from what I recall, he rarely got rattled. Not that Favre does either, but sometimes, I've seen him get jittery. Elway may have gotten jittery too, so I'll have to someday investigate this.

The same elway that holds the super bowl record for most interceptions (8), yea he played in a bunch of them but then again so did others like Terry Bradshaw. Most fumbles 3, 2 in 1 game (also a record). 14 career postseason fumbles (1st all time), The guy is extremely overrated and if it werent for The Walrus not knowing how to coach (gee a guy is running all over a D in the SB in the first half, how about we stop going to him in the second half) he wouldnt have that first SB and probably wouldnt have had the momentum to carry him to the second. Damn Walrus, look what youve done.

[LAKESHOW]

john elway is the best quarterback of all time. if he had the proper system around him from the beginning, he would have several more titles than just 2.

[Elway=GOAT]

-= original quote snipped =-



The same elway that holds the super bowl record for most interceptions (8), yea he played in a bunch of them but then again so did others like Terry Bradshaw. Most fumbles 3, 2 in 1 game (also a record). 14 career postseason fumbles (1st all time), The guy is extremely overrated and if it werent for The Walrus not knowing how to coach (gee a guy is running all over a D in the SB in the first half, how about we stop going to him in the second half) he wouldnt have that first SB and probably wouldnt have had the momentum to carry him to the second. Damn Walrus, look what youve done.

Woulda, coulda shoulda. Denver beat Green Bay, period. To that rediculous statement of them not have the momentum the next year if they would of lost, thats a foolish statement. They were better the next year. Those two yours, Denver was completely stacked especially on offense, they spanked pretty much everyone that year, no problems.

They would of won regardless, that year, didnt matter if they beat Green Bay or not. Those Broncos teams were the = of the early 90's Cowboys, and the 80's 49ers. A QB who at that point who just managed that game, and was just the field general, Elway in these years, could still move around, could still throw 80 yard bombs down field, but he wasnt the play maker he was in his early years. He was still, lights out in the clutch even in his later years.

Terrell Davis, was possibly the best running back in football at this time. Mike Shanahan, had a statement in Davis second year(the year they lost to the JAGs) that the only running back in football he would rather have than TD was Barry Sanders.

A offensive line, were you could stick whatever Running back back there and they are rushing for 1200 and 10. The same line, just a couple years older made Olandis Gary look decent...

Wide outs and tight ends, Rod Smith, Eddy Mac, and of course Sharp.

I freely admit, the Broncos current defense was much better with they were working with back then...Well atleast the Secondary and Linebackers. I think the superbowl teams, had a much better overall offensive line, Keith Traylor and Neil Smith alone caused more disruption in the pass rush, combined with stopping the run, than what we have today.

Denver ran and threw through everyone, just out scoring people. Numbers wise one of the best offenses ever, a top 10 in league history that is for sure.

The only team, that I thought would beat the Broncos that year, was Minnasota. If it wasnt for one of the biggest choke jobs ever, things might be diffrent. It would of definatly been intresting. Neither of those defense would of shut down the other that is for sure.

[Elway=GOAT]

john elway is the best quarterback of all time. if he had the proper system around him from the beginning, he would have several more titles than just 2.

I agree he is the best, im not sure about the other statement though. I definatly think Dan Reeves held him back, from what he was capable of. But they would of still got smoked by the 49ers, and the Redskins. The Giants was debatable, but not much you can do, when Phil Sims carves up your defense the way he did.

I do believe however, that Denver would of played in atleast 1-2 more superbowls. So who knows what could of happend.

[Elway=GOAT]

Thanks for the very balanced response. No doubt that Elway should be considered one of the best ever, but I think Favre gets screwed over as a result of his recent playoff performances, to the benefit of Elway.

And yes, Favre definitely has to shoulder some blame regarding the playoff meltdowns. Part of that is due to injuries, and another large part is that he seemed to be playing in a bit of a fog for the last few games. Notably against the Vikings, Eagles, and Rams.

However, I can't say that these three games should define his career. Sports is a very what-have-you-done-for-me-lately enterprise, and lately, Favre has not delivered at the level he once did. And that's why his legacy has been unfairly (IMO) diminished.

In contrast, Elway's legacy has been greatly enhanced in recent years. Owing to the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately mindset. Recent memory recalls Elway helicoptering his way to a Super Bowl victory, and then blowing out the Falcons the next year. That's how history will remember him, because that's the most recent thing people have seen.

Though that might be fair, it wouldn't really tell the whole story. Elway did not win without a loaded team. It's when that team became very, very good in all facets that Elway finally won. If there was no Terrell Davis, it's very possible that John Elway gets put at the same level as Jim Kelly. And Jim Kelly is never considered anywhere near the level of top QBs (also unfairly).

That's not to say anyone should ignore the Bronco Super Bowl victories. But I definitely think that they boost his legacy more than they should. It wasn't only Elway's team then. When it was Elway's team, he beat up on a weaker AFC (impressive in itself, of course), and then got stomped in the Super Bowl. What if people actually remembered that instead? That legacy constituted a larger percentage of his career. If that were the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Elway being the only going to the hall is very impressive. However, as you said, Sharpe will join him there, and Davis certainly would have, if he knees had cooperated. For Favre, his only teammate is Reggie White. An argument can be made as to which is more impressive.

So in similar fashion, Favre never really had much talent around him either. Edgar Bennett was a RB - probably on par with Winder (who did make a Pro Bowl, I believe). The receivers, Brooks, Freeman, Schroeder, Driver - though good, I highly doubt any team went out of their way to game plan against them. It's also noteworthy that Freeman and Schroeder bombed when they left the Packers (Brooks did too, but he was old by then). So it can be argued that Favre made those receivers better than they really were.

Elway was definitely clutch - no argument there. More than Favre too. However, Elway has 47 4th quarter comebacks, whereas Favre has 38. Elway has more, but is that really enough to vault him past Favre considering everything else?

As far as running, it's true that Elway was the better athlete and could run for a score. But as far as playmaking, Favre is just as good at that as Elway, if not better. Except he did it with his arm. Favre may not be fast, but he's extremely deft at avoiding sacks and finding the open receiver. That was his bread and butter, really. There was this play in Carolina, where Favre was forced all the way right, and came all the way left, threw across his body, and found the open receiver in the end zone. From 30 yards out! That's vintage Favre. What he lacked in running speed, he more than made up for in escapability. It shows in the touchdown totals.

One possible advantage that I will give Elway is that he seemed cooler under pressure. I don't remember every game obviously, and I'd have to investigate this to see if it's true, but from what I recall, he rarely got rattled. Not that Favre does either, but sometimes, I've seen him get jittery. Elway may have gotten jittery too, so I'll have to someday investigate this.

Very fair points. I agree with you, that Favre has had his image tarnished, and at this point he is somewhat overrated from a career accomplishment stand point. I dont know if people forgot how good this guy was 10+ years ago. Elway and Marino were both toward the end of there careers, as was Montana if not retired, Young was solid but I mean to me he inherited a stacked team. I think you put that team around a Kelly, or a Marino(if his ego could handle handing it off to waters and having a balanced offense). An Elway, a Favre, I think most of the top 10 QB's in the league could of went to that team and won a ring. Or been super competitive every year(as if those guys repective teams wernt already). Aikman never wow'd me, but he was solid and did the little things and things he needed to do to win.

Don't get me wrong either, Another reason why I liked Favre was the fact that he won, with good but not great talent around him like alot of the other QB's in the league who won multiple rings did. They had Edgar Bennet as there starting runningback that year. I could be wrong, but I do not believe he even cracked 1k yards that season, if ever. I was very impressed by the fact that Favre could be so dominate, especially throwing the ball with no great running back. Especially when he was at his best(through out the 90's). I remember Dorsey Levans had one good year, but he was pretty much always an injury waiting to happen.

By the time Favre got a decent running game behind him, him and the key packers were getting older and passed there prime. So this is definatly a very good debate, I truly believe Favre is one of the more underrated QB's. Especially now, but when he retires people usually appreciate what that guy brought to the table alittle bit more than when everyone watched him play, as they did with Elway.

I think, Favre was better coached and had better overall teams, than what Elway had to work with. Especially if you compare respective rosters. The offense consisted of...Elway. The defense with the 80's broncos had some nice pieces here and there, two that come to mind are Mecklanberg and especially Atwater(80's version of John Lynch, nicest got in the world, but when Sundays come around hes lookin to rip your head off).

I always hear alot of people say, Elway only won because of TD. That may be true, but you can make that excuse for any multi superbowl winner. You need players to win games. One guy could carry you(As Elway did) with not that many weapons, just the will to win. But when you face teams were a QB has weapons, and has players around him to help him out alot, there is only so far one guy can take you.

Also, if you look at the, video of those years, you look at the behind the scenes stuff, in the locker room etc. There is not one person in the world, who could say with a straight face, Elway was not on the field, off the field leader, and the heart and soul of those teams. Without Elway they dont win. He was the emotional leader of that team. Rod Smith, Sharp and ED Mac have went on record as to say, John was an easily approchable guy. He was the vet, the guy the younger guys looked up to. I mean hes John **** Elway! Rod Smith has now assumed that role, for the team now. Hes not what he was, but he is "that guy" that Denver needs.

Dont get me wrong, TD was the player maker, TD had the best start to a career for a running back ever. 5th round pick, got his yards(1100, 1500, 1800, 2000). Scored alot of TD's just a great player, the perfect player for that running system. He didnt have blazing speed, alot of faster guys, but he was one of the best at cutting back, finding the holes, following his blockers. He was just, unreal. But, even he would aknowledge without Elway who knows if they could of won? Elway was a Tom Brady esc, at that point. Managed games very well, calmed everyone down, especially at advercity. When they needed to make a play through the air, he would come through.

Especially when, they needed to score, to win. They did not handed it off to TD and watch him run for 75 yards and the win. They did what Elway has always done, Managed the clock, made plays when they need too, not too much, not too little. Elway performed game winning drive to perfection. Like I said, thats what made Elway so great. He could throw 3 picks, in a half, or fumble or whatever. But everyone knew, if the game is on the line, and the score is close. Denver was coming back. Elway had that Michael Jordan will to win. Lets not forget those last 2 seasons Elway was a pro bowler.

Sorry, im just typing tongue and cheek with alot of scatterd thoughts. Im not even trying to argue the fact, that Elway was a better passer than Favre. I think if Dan Reeves didnt mismanage Elway the way he did, things could be diffrent. Reeves was always overly conservative, but then again most coaches in the 80's were. If Elway was allowed to sling the ball around more, his numbers would be more impressive. But it is what it is.

Another reason, why alot of NFL guys, consider Elway goat. Is his physical gifts. He had a better arm than Favre, although Favre was a hell of alot more accurate, and creative as far as, throwing screens, under hand, and just doing what he needed to do to win. Elway, might be the most gifted football player ever. Again going back to Dan Reeves, inability to use im correctly. Although, Reeves was the coach in Elways 5 year when he won MVP.

Elway is what Michael Vick was sopposed to be, cept Elway had much better size. Similar Talent, could run, had ludacris arm strength, but Elway was a much better leader, and smarter QB. I can recall Elway, getting chased out of the pocket(Line was decent, not like it was the superbowl years), running back words, avoiding the sack then, while on the run, throw a 70-75 yard bomb down the field. McNabb style, you know when fred Mitchel, said I want to thank my hands.

He was probably the best pro prospect ever, at that time. Had great size, 6'3 215 points. Possibly the strongest arm ever, and he could run. From a physical standpoint probably the most gifts for a qb ever. Numbers, only tell half the story. Elway had very nice numbers. The people, who say hes goat, look at it as a whole. Probably the most clutch player in football ever, Play maker, probably the biggest impact a player has ever had to his respective team. His biggest problem, he gambled way, way to much! Especially the first 2 1/2 quarters. The second half of the third and fourth, he was lights out. Ask the browns, and all the AFC teams, Elway molested almost every team the Broncos played, in the 4th when it matterd.

Lastly, im hammerd drunk, so I have repeated myself many times, Im sure. But, assuming Elway never got his ring/s, he would be grouped up with Kelly and Marino, etc.. It is kinda funny, I recall a sorts illistrated from 97 with Elway and Favre cover said "Elway has everything Favre does, but a ring."

[th87]

Good points, and I guess it goes to show how inexact of a science this really is! My main issue really is when writers come out and say how Elway is so obviously a better QB than Favre. But then again, writers are bastards anyway...haha.

Favre's main flaw was that he erroneously felt that he needed to take on all the responsibility. This caused a lot of forcing and gambling. The best managers delegate, and this is what Montana was good at. It appears Favre has been doing that this year (so far), which is why I think he can play four more years if he can continue to delegate (and the team is good enough for delegation duties).

I think the main thing is that people's perceptions are forged by their last memories of someone. The last thing we remember Elway for is his Super Bowl victory, because we never saw him after that. So people will think, "Elway. Super Bowl winner. Went out on top. Best ever." For Favre, it's "Favre. Threw a million interceptions the last two years (completely unfair!). Sticks around only for records (also untrue)." Those prevailing impressions will certainly catapult Elway past Favre.

So I think that Favre's suffered from a magnification of his flaws, whereas Elway's benefitted from a magnification of his final-viewed image. Therefore, I think the writers really need to take that into consideration before coming to a final conclusion.

[Elway=GOAT]

Good points, and I guess it goes to show how inexact of a science this really is! My main issue really is when writers come out and say how Elway is so obviously a better QB than Favre. But then again, writers are bastards anyway...haha.

Favre's main flaw was that he erroneously felt that he needed to take on all the responsibility. This caused a lot of forcing and gambling. The best managers delegate, and this is what Montana was good at. It appears Favre has been doing that this year (so far), which is why I think he can play four more years if he can continue to delegate (and the team is good enough for delegation duties).

I think the main thing is that people's perceptions are forged by their last memories of someone. The last thing we remember Elway for is his Super Bowl victory, because we never saw him after that. So people will think, "Elway. Super Bowl winner. Went out on top. Best ever." For Favre, it's "Favre. Threw a million interceptions the last two years (completely unfair!). Sticks around only for records (also untrue)." Those prevailing impressions will certainly catapult Elway past Favre.

So I think that Favre's suffered from a magnification of his flaws, whereas Elway's benefitted from a magnification of his final-viewed image. Therefore, I think the writers really need to take that into consideration before coming to a final conclusion.

People who say, Elway is way better than Favre are retards. Dont remember how many MVP's Favre has, atleast 3. Ill say this, the mid-late 90's Favre was the best QB hands down. His prime was better then Elways, that is for sure. Especially from a passing stand point. Its apples and oranges really, they both were brilliant play makers, just did it in diffrent ways, Elway was more balanced. Favre stood in the pocked and picked the defense apart.

Just as you mentioned with Favre for the picks, and trying to make plays and forcing things, Elway did the same thing. Hence his high turnover rate. Which makes both more special because, guys who force things are usually making up for the talent around them, which both did. Good debate, I see your points. They were good for diffrent reasons. Like I said, Favre with his arm, just throwing bullets(when those things hit guys in the chest, you just hard the collision, and knocking the wind out of this guys.

I work in the, ER at a small hospital so its slow often. So we get into discussions about this often. Constant debates, everyone has there player who they claim to be the best

Montana( was clutch, wasnt the most talented guy, but got the job done, similar to Brady

Marino(overrated, they just would throw, constantly, nice quick release though)

Favre( just dominate, play maker)

Elway(winner, clutch play maker. Biggest impact to a team and franchise ever probably.)

You can make the case, for most of these guys...with Brady and Manning creepin up.

1 last thing I wanted to point out. Looking at Elways numbers, he had a fair amount of not so good years. Then looking at whatever QB is doing now, Culpepper comes to mind few years back, Bulger, yada yada. Hell even, Plummer broke the single season yards for denver. Its just easier to put up better numbers, especially with the NFL dictating how everyone has to play. You cant touch a wide out anymore, without getting a flaged. I think there is a number of QB's especially 80-90's QB's could have put up crazy numbers.

Favre was a victim of that tough defense as well. Imagin a Favre from mid 90's. He would blow anything away stat wise, Brady, Manning, Palmer, etc But that the league wants. They want to market Manning, as the "face of the league" so they changed rules just to make it easier of the Colts. They did similar things, with the Rams years back.

[cb4_89]

I prefer Favre but Im a little Biased.

Basically I see this as KG vs Duncan if KG was also clutch and won a title or two.

There is no real indicator of who is better.

[NeedsMoreCheese]

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The same elway that holds the super bowl record for most interceptions (8), yea he played in a bunch of them but then again so did others like Terry Bradshaw. Most fumbles 3, 2 in 1 game (also a record). 14 career postseason fumbles (1st all time), The guy is extremely overrated and if it werent for The Walrus not knowing how to coach (gee a guy is running all over a D in the SB in the first half, how about we stop going to him in the second half) he wouldnt have that first SB and probably wouldnt have had the momentum to carry him to the second. Damn Walrus, look what youve done.

Woulda, coulda shoulda. Denver beat Green Bay, period. To that rediculous statement of them not have the momentum the next year if they would of lost, thats a foolish statement. They were better the next year. Those two yours, Denver was completely stacked especially on offense, they spanked pretty much everyone that year, no problems.

They would of won regardless, that year, didnt matter if they beat Green Bay or not. Those Broncos teams were the = of the early 90's Cowboys, and the 80's 49ers. A QB who at that point who just managed that game, and was just the field general, Elway in these years, could still move around, could still throw 80 yard bombs down field, but he wasnt the play maker he was in his early years. He was still, lights out in the clutch even in his later years.

Terrell Davis, was possibly the best running back in football at this time. Mike Shanahan, had a statement in Davis second year(the year they lost to the JAGs) that the only running back in football he would rather have than TD was Barry Sanders.

A offensive line, were you could stick whatever Running back back there and they are rushing for 1200 and 10. The same line, just a couple years older made Olandis Gary look decent...

Wide outs and tight ends, Rod Smith, Eddy Mac, and of course Sharp.

I freely admit, the Broncos current defense was much better with they were working with back then...Well atleast the Secondary and Linebackers. I think the superbowl teams, had a much better overall offensive line, Keith Traylor and Neil Smith alone caused more disruption in the pass rush, combined with stopping the run, than what we have today.

Denver ran and threw through everyone, just out scoring people. Numbers wise one of the best offenses ever, a top 10 in league history that is for sure.

The only team, that I thought would beat the Broncos that year, was Minnasota. If it wasnt for one of the biggest choke jobs ever, things might be diffrent. It would of definatly been intresting. Neither of those defense would of shut down the other that is for sure.

Are you **** kidding me?

[Elway=GOAT]

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Are you **** kidding me?

No, im serious. Denver had the second best offensive team ever from a yardage and points per game perspective. They had a very good defense. Not great, but very good. I think they were on par with those teams, and I also think they would of won again in 99 assuming Elway didnt retire, and TD didnt get hurt. They rolled out with Griese and Olandis Gary that year.

Denvers Oline was just as dominate as, the Cowboys, just in a diffrent way. They were smaller, faster, and used (cheap?) tactics while, the Cowboys over powered people.

Elway was in his prime, and at that point a just an excellent game manger, and locker room guy, at that point I think he was on par with Aikman. TD was better than Emmitt ever was, those 2 superbowl years. Denever had a better group of Wideouts and tight ends. Dallas peobably had the better defense.

The Niners and Broncos were similar.

I believe these 3 teams were on par with each other. Go look at the rosters, and when you see who Denver was rolling out there, and what those players had accomplished throughout there careers, and during that season, you will be like holy ****.

[NeedsMoreCheese]

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No, im serious. Denver had the second best offensive team ever from a yardage and points per game perspective. They had a very good defense. Not great, but very good. I think they were on par with those teams, and I also think they would of won again in 99 assuming Elway didnt retire, and TD didnt get hurt. They rolled out with Griese and Olandis Gary that year.

Denvers Oline was just as dominate as, the Cowboys, just in a diffrent way. They were smaller, faster, and used (cheap?) tactics while, the Cowboys over powered people.

Elway was in his prime, and at that point a just an excellent game manger, and locker room guy, at that point I think he was on par with Aikman. TD was better than Emmitt ever was, those 2 superbowl years. Denever had a better group of Wideouts and tight ends. Dallas peobably had the better defense.

The Niners and Broncos were similar.

I believe these 3 teams were on par with each other. Go look at the rosters, and when you see who Denver was rolling out there, and what those players had accomplished throughout there careers, and during that season, you will be like holy ****.

Irvin> all the broncos WRs combined. Jay Novacek was really underrated (Not better than Horseface but good in his own right). Alvin Harper had a 21.6 and a 24.5 (which lead the league) yard per catch average his last two years in dallas).


Emmitt in 92>>>> TD in 97 (look it up)
And in 93 he had 5.3 ypc, TD's best was 5.1
Emmitt was a touchdown machine

Dallas defense allowed 243, 229 in 92 and 93
Broncos 287 and 309 in 97 and 98

[Elway=GOAT]

Irvin> all the broncos WRs combined. Jay Novacek was really underrated (Not better than Horseface but good in his own right). Alvin Harper had a 21.6 and a 24.5 (which lead the league) yard per catch average his last two years in dallas).

Ludacris statement, Irvin was better than Smith or Ed Mac in his prime. But Smith, and ED>Irvin and Harper, or whoever they threw up next to him. That was just a better 1-2 punch at reciever. Novacek wasnt close to being on Sharps level, Sharp was an average at best blocker but probably the best catching tight end ever. Smith, ED, Sharp in the 97/98 seasons better than anything that Dallas ran at there in the wide out and tight end positions. Period.

Emmitt in 92>>>> TD in 97 (look it up)
And in 93 he had 5.3 ypc, TD's best was 5.1
Emmitt was a touchdown machine

Emmits best season was in 95, Bar none. Ill still argu, TD had a better season in 98, than Emmit did in his entire career. If anything its a draw in terms of the running back position and what they ment to the respective Superbowl winning teams.

Dallas defense allowed 243, 229 in 92 and 93
Broncos 287 and 309 in 97 and 98

Ehh..Dallas had the better D. Denver was a top 10 d, Dallas was top 5 usually. But the best year Dallas had, statistically was in 94, and they didnt even make it to the superbowl.

I think its closer than what the stats tell. Looking at the stats Denver put up 30 points a game, and put up about 25-30 more yards a game on average. But even in a 5 year diffrence, you look at yardage, and scoring and it went up, while the defense went down.

I think its closer, from an offensive and defensive perspective than it appears, and people like you make it look.

Do I think Denever was an outright better team than either Dallas or the 49ers? No...Do I think they could play with them, and even beat those teams? You bet, especially if they keep it close. Nobody better in the clutch than Elway. Even in his final years, he showed the ability to bring a team back in the 4th. Thats what made him better than Aikman, and what made him just as clutch if not more than Montana.

[NeedsMoreCheese]

Irvin> all the broncos WRs combined. Jay Novacek was really underrated (Not better than Horseface but good in his own right). Alvin Harper had a 21.6 and a 24.5 (which lead the league) yard per catch average his last two years in dallas).

Ludacris statement, Irvin was better than Smith or Ed Mac in his prime. But Smith, and ED>Irvin and Harper, or whoever they threw up next to him. That was just a better 1-2 punch at reciever. Novacek wasnt close to being on Sharps level, Sharp was an average at best blocker but probably the best catching tight end ever. Smith, ED, Sharp in the 97/98 seasons better than anything that Dallas ran at there in the wide out and tight end positions. Period.

Emmitt in 92>>>> TD in 97 (look it up)
And in 93 he had 5.3 ypc, TD's best was 5.1
Emmitt was a touchdown machine

Emmits best season was in 95, Bar none. Ill still argu, TD had a better season in 98, than Emmit did in his entire career. If anything its a draw in terms of the running back position and what they ment to the respective Superbowl winning teams.

Dallas defense allowed 243, 229 in 92 and 93
Broncos 287 and 309 in 97 and 98

Ehh..Dallas had the better D. Denver was a top 10 d, Dallas was top 5 usually. But the best year Dallas had, statistically was in 94, and they didnt even make it to the superbowl.

I think its closer than what the stats tell. Looking at the stats Denver put up 30 points a game, and put up about 25-30 more yards a game on average. But even in a 5 year diffrence, you look at yardage, and scoring and it went up, while the defense went down.

I think its closer, from an offensive and defensive perspective than it appears, and people like you make it look.

Do I think Denever was an outright better team than either Dallas or the 49ers? No...Do I think they could play with them, and even beat those teams? You bet, especially if they keep it close. Nobody better in the clutch than Elway. Even in his final years, he showed the ability to bring a team back in the 4th. Thats what made him better than Aikman, and what made him just as clutch if not more than Montana.

Elway is the leader for most INTs in superbowls (and 3rd in fumbles, Aikman is the leader for least. Along with the leader with 70% completion in the SB. Aikman has his faults sure but to say hes not more clutch is ridiculous. Aikman never lost a superbowl, John Elway lost 3.


As for Irvin, the guy doesnt get the respect he deserves. In matchups with the greatest CB to ever play he had games such as
5 catches 115yds, 1 td,
10 catches 169 yds, 1 td
6 catches 89 yds
8 catches 94 yds
12 catches 192 yds 2tds (In the NFC championship game)

Are there other games he didnt do so well? Yes. But the fact is if a guy had that much success against the Best CB ever in his prime, hes a great receiver. And its not like he didnt dominate other guys too, he did.
And harper in the SB years is AT LEAST = to McCaffery. Career wise? No.


One more point on Emmitt, as i said look up 92. Its arguable he had as a good a season then as he did in 95. Even with that 93 was the year he became the first player to lead the league in rushing yards, win NFL Most Valuable Player Award, and win Super Bowl MVP all in the same season. (and he did all that after missing the first two games due to a contract dispute).

[Elway=GOAT]

Elway is the leader for most INTs in superbowls (and 3rd in fumbles, Aikman is the leader for least. Along with the leader with 70% completion in the SB. Aikman has his faults sure but to say hes not more clutch is ridiculous. Aikman never lost a superbowl, John Elway lost 3.

As for Irvin, the guy doesnt get the respect he deserves. In matchups with the greatest CB to ever play he had games such as
5 catches 115yds, 1 td,
10 catches 169 yds, 1 td 6 catches 89 yds
8 catches 94 yds
12 catches 192 yds 2tds (In the NFC championship game)

Are there other games he didnt do so well? Yes. But the fact is if a guy had that much success against the Best CB ever in his prime, hes a great receiver. And its not like he didnt dominate other guys too, he did.
And harper in the SB years is AT LEAST = to McCaffery. Career wise? No.


One more point on Emmitt, as i said look up 92. Its arguable he had as a good a season then as he did in 95. Even with that 93 was the year he became the first player to lead the league in rushing yards, win NFL Most Valuable Player Award, and win Super Bowl MVP all in the same season. (and he did all that after missing the first two games due to a contract dispute).

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/roste ... l/1986-den <---1986

Check the numbers, he didnt have a receiver get 1000 yards, and neither did his runningback, how this team even made the playoffs is mind boggling.


http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/roste ... l/1987-den <---1987

Same thing here, this team might be worse.


http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/roste ... l/1989-den <---1989

Woot, Bobby humphrey's had an unreal year as the starting runningback, 294 carries, 1151 yards, 3.9 yards a carry, and 7 td's. 22 catches 156 yards and a touch.

Nice a receiver, that cracked 1000 yards too! Mr. Vance Johnson 76 catches, 1095 yards, and 7 TD's!

I have a hard time, believing Aikman would even lead a team to the playoffs with that kind of crap surrounding him. Nobody is winning a superbowl with those teams, its ridiculous that Elway even took those teams to the playoffs. Especially with Dan Reeves as the coach. Not Montana, Brady, Manning, Aikman, Young. If they rolled out with that kind of talent around them, None would have rings. Its debatable, whether those guys could even get to the superbowl, much less the playoffs. So no, Elway>Aikman, in almost every espect.

Aikman was surrounded by hall of fame players, Elway was not. Elway went to five, with far less talent around him, in 3 of those years(the ones he lost). Elway wins 5-6 superbowls with the supporting cast Aikman had period. The fact alone, that Elway is the only hall of famer for the Broncos, and played in 5 superbowls should tell you something. The fact is, Elway got talent at the end of his career, and won. Most guys in there 16th year, are circling the drain. Elway was a pro bowler, and won two rings, and won a superbowl MVP his last year. Imagin what he would of done in his prime? With similar talent. It wouldnt even be a debate who the Goat is.

No, Alvin Harper was not better than ED. The fact that Ed was the tall lengthy possession receiver who would take a hit, go over the middle catch what was throw to him, alone makes him better, Alvin Harper was a gravy training one deminsional speed receiver. Lets not forget Ed was probably one of the best block wide receivers ever.


I still am not, seeing what you are trying to get at, with Irvin. He was better than ED or Rod. But Denver had the better all around passing game, and players. Look at the numbers. There is no arguing. They had the better receivers, the better QB, and in 98 had the best running back. Just a better offense in general. Both olines were equally as dominate, just in diffrent ways.

Denver had the better offense, and special teams for that matter. Dallas had the better defense.

[NO-KG-AI]

I'm rofling at this guy thinking Elway is anywhere near Vick in terms of running the ball

Get out of here dude, you can't be serious.

[Elway=GOAT]

I'm rofling at this guy thinking Elway is anywhere near Vick in terms of running the ball

Get out of here dude, you can't be serious.

If you are refering to me, I never made that claim. I said Elway had a similar impact on the game. Teams have to change, there game plans to play against a player like that.

If I did say that, quote it, and ill fix it. Otherwise, why dont you take the time to read what I said. Instead of making yourself look like a