Elvin Hayes
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Elvin Hayes
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- Bench Warmer
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Elvin Hayes
Looking at Elvin Hayes' stats, it seems he had gaudy numbers during the 70's. Why isn't he considered one of the upper echelon power forwards in NBA history? I rarely hear his name mentioned when talking about all time great power forwards. Was it because of the era he played in? Who is the current player that could be compared to him?
Re: Elvin Hayes
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- RealGM
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Re: Elvin Hayes
Hayes never played ina basketball town and never was ever appreciated for what he did. He was very good but never great or super human at anything and I believe he just didnt live up to the hype after beating UCLA and KAJ in the Astrodome. He was supposed to be the next great C but his game never realy advanced. He played for crappy teams and then won a title as the #1 option but not considered the best player.
In terms of career Hayes reminds me alot of KG.
In terms of style and ability Hayes reminds me of Duncan.
I do think Hayes and Pettit should be right there with Charles and K Malone for GOAT at the position.
In terms of career Hayes reminds me alot of KG.
In terms of style and ability Hayes reminds me of Duncan.
I do think Hayes and Pettit should be right there with Charles and K Malone for GOAT at the position.
HomoSapien wrote:Warspite, the greatest poster in the history of realgm.
Re: Elvin Hayes
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Re: Elvin Hayes
I posted this a few months ago...but, to start with, Elvin Hayes was incredibly lucvy to play along Wes Unseld, who could have been different temperamentally and skill wise, to Elvin. Hayes was good for Unseld; I think Unseld was even better for Hayes. And Elvin had two issues that worked in conjunction to drive coaches and teammates crazy.
1) Elvin Hayes was a black hole. He had a turnaround jumper and,as far he was concerned, that was the shot that his team needed to have put up....pretty much every time the team had the ball. Tex Winter coached Elvin Hayes in 1972...Hayes averaged 3.3 apg that year. It was the only season in his career he was over 2.5 assists per game...keep in mind that this was a guy who very often played over 40 minutes a game. He was under 2 assists a game lots of times. Even thought he got Hayes to pass a little bit, Winter hated Elvin. The feeling was mutual. To go with his unwillingness to pass, Hayes was not a high percentage shooter either...his career FG% is only .452. That made designing an effective offensive system around him next to impossible. Playing alongside him wasn't a whole lot better.
And it's not like he got more generous with the ball when he got older. In Hayes final season with Bullets, at age 35, he played nearly 3000 minutes...and had 98 assists for the season. Black Hole.
2) If Elvin Hayes didn't agree with what you were doing, Elvin Hayes would tell you. He wasn't an in-your-face prick like Rick Barry; Hayes was just blunt. When Elvin didn't get his way, he would sulk. Since he didn't like coaches or players that told him to fit into offensive schemes that didn't let him shoot when he felt like it, Hayes alienated everyone from Alex Hannum to Tex Winter to Mitch Kupchak. The best thing that ever happened to Elvin Hayes was playing alongside a rugged, great passing C that didn't care about shooting. Still, for most of his teammates, he was the guy that didn't pass them the ball, and complained the most, and sulked when he felt he didn't get recognition for what he did well (which meant score and get help side blocks), and was the first one to point out the flaws in others while magically ignoring his own.
Hayes put it like this:
Here is the effect on his teammates that Elvin Hayes had by being "a man."
1) Elvin Hayes was a black hole. He had a turnaround jumper and,as far he was concerned, that was the shot that his team needed to have put up....pretty much every time the team had the ball. Tex Winter coached Elvin Hayes in 1972...Hayes averaged 3.3 apg that year. It was the only season in his career he was over 2.5 assists per game...keep in mind that this was a guy who very often played over 40 minutes a game. He was under 2 assists a game lots of times. Even thought he got Hayes to pass a little bit, Winter hated Elvin. The feeling was mutual. To go with his unwillingness to pass, Hayes was not a high percentage shooter either...his career FG% is only .452. That made designing an effective offensive system around him next to impossible. Playing alongside him wasn't a whole lot better.
And it's not like he got more generous with the ball when he got older. In Hayes final season with Bullets, at age 35, he played nearly 3000 minutes...and had 98 assists for the season. Black Hole.
2) If Elvin Hayes didn't agree with what you were doing, Elvin Hayes would tell you. He wasn't an in-your-face prick like Rick Barry; Hayes was just blunt. When Elvin didn't get his way, he would sulk. Since he didn't like coaches or players that told him to fit into offensive schemes that didn't let him shoot when he felt like it, Hayes alienated everyone from Alex Hannum to Tex Winter to Mitch Kupchak. The best thing that ever happened to Elvin Hayes was playing alongside a rugged, great passing C that didn't care about shooting. Still, for most of his teammates, he was the guy that didn't pass them the ball, and complained the most, and sulked when he felt he didn't get recognition for what he did well (which meant score and get help side blocks), and was the first one to point out the flaws in others while magically ignoring his own.
Hayes put it like this:
"I'm very honest about myself, and that's one reason I get in trouble. I speak what I feel. Other people are more diplomatic, but I don't feel, by doing that, that I'm a man."
Here is the effect on his teammates that Elvin Hayes had by being "a man."
"For some players and coaches, being around Elvin every day is like a Chinese water torture," John Lally, a trainer with the Washington Bullets when Hayes was with the team, told the Washington Post. "It's just a drop at a time, nothing big, but in the end, he's driven you crazy."

Re: Elvin Hayes
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Re: Elvin Hayes
Dang True, you stole my post including the Lally quote and everything, lol.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: Elvin Hayes
- Laimbeer
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Re: Elvin Hayes
He's totally underrated here. He was an outstanding low post player, an excellent defender, and very mobile for a big man - he ran the floor exceptionally well.
All-time
NBA Top 50
12x all-star
3x all NBA
2x 2nd team all NBA
Carrer ranking in NBA -
Games -12th
Minutes - 3rd
Field goals - 6th
Rebounds - 6th
Blocks - 23rd
Points - 9th
All-time
NBA Top 50
12x all-star
3x all NBA
2x 2nd team all NBA
Carrer ranking in NBA -
Games -12th
Minutes - 3rd
Field goals - 6th
Rebounds - 6th
Blocks - 23rd
Points - 9th
Comments to rationalize bad contracts -
1) It's less than the MLE
2) He can be traded later
3) It's only __% of the cap
4) The cap is going up
5) It's only __ years
6) He's a good mentor/locker room guy
1) It's less than the MLE
2) He can be traded later
3) It's only __% of the cap
4) The cap is going up
5) It's only __ years
6) He's a good mentor/locker room guy
Re: Elvin Hayes
- kooldude
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Re: Elvin Hayes
Thanks for bringing objectivity to this thread, TLAF.
Great post as usual. (no kiss-ass)
Great post as usual. (no kiss-ass)
Warspite wrote:I still would take Mitch (Richmond) over just about any SG playing today. His peak is better than 2011 Kobe and with 90s rules hes better than Wade.
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