Best second team in the league

tbhawksfan · Post #1 » by **tbhawksfan** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:40 pm

Teague / Crawford / Evans / JOSmith / Zaza over every other teams back ups.

Seeing as how we also have arguably one of the best starting lineups, things are looking PDG.

CAM · Post #2 » by **CAM** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:40 pm

I haven't really looked over the other teams, but I'd say it's a but lofty to claim us as the best 2nd team in the league.

I could easily say though, best Hawks second team...... maybe since I've followed them (1991-ish)

I'm really excited about this season. Not even in terms of victories, in terms of the players to watch.

dpaulh · Post #3 » by **dpaulh** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:03 am

I do think this is the most complete team that we have had in a very long time, but I didn't even have to leave the division to find a better second team.
ORL
1 A. Johnson - we don't know what Teague is gonna give us.. Toss up
2 J. Redick - Crawford > Redick
3 M. Barnes - Barnes = Mo
4 B. Bass - Bass > Smith
5 M. Gortat - Gortat > Zaza

Overall I give a slight edge to Orlando

dpaulh · Post #4 » by **dpaulh** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:07 am

Assuming the Washington starters stay healthy, they have a very good young bench full of players that got a lot of expierence last year while everyone was hurt.

tbhawksfan · Post #5 » by **tbhawksfan** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:07 am

Gortat needs to prove he's better than Zaza. He hasn't yet; edge Hawks.

CViggity · Post #6 » by **CViggity** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:18 am

I'm constantly astounded at how homerish Hawks fans can be. We don't have anything close to the best 2nd team in the league, in fact depth has been a pretty big issue for the Hawks. We improved slightly this year, but not enough to rank near the top.

CViggity · Post #7 » by **CViggity** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:22 am

Steve Blake
Rudy Fernandez
Nicholas Batum
Jeff Pendergraph
Joel Pryzbilla

is easily a better 5 man team.

The Bulls bench is substantially better than ours, as is the most of the Western Conference (Spurs, Rockets, Lakers, etc)

I'd say we have an average to maybe slightly above average second unit.

dpaulh · Post #8 » by **dpaulh** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:26 am

Lol I didn't want to be so harsh with my assessment, but I do agree mostly. I do think that we have a top 12 bench though.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #9 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:05 am

CViggity wrote:Steve Blake
Rudy Fernandez
Nicholas Batum
Jeff Pendergraph
Joel Pryzbilla

is easily a better 5 man team.

The Bulls bench is substantially better than ours, as is the most of the Western Conference (Spurs, Rockets, Lakers, etc)

I'd say we have an average to maybe slightly above average second unit.

How is the Bulls bench substantially better?

CViggity · Post #10 » by **CViggity** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:32 am

HoopsGuru25 wrote:
CViggity wrote:Steve Blake
Rudy Fernandez
Nicholas Batum
Jeff Pendergraph
Joel Pryzbilla

is easily a better 5 man team.

The Bulls bench is substantially better than ours, as is the most of the Western Conference (Spurs, Rockets, Lakers, etc)

I'd say we have an average to maybe slightly above average second unit.

How is the Bulls bench substantially better?

You're right, it isn't. I temporarily forgot BGord left and was thinking it was Hinrich/Salmons/Noah off the bench like last year.

Portland and Houston both have better benches by a mile.

Houston this year is

Lowry
Barry
Battier
Landry/Hayes/Cook
Dorsey

Depending on how their line-up works. Maybe they start Battier and Ariza? They really only have 3 guys who can play a true wing position and then a ton of 6'6" power forwards.

Also Orlando's bench is better than the Hawks by a decent bit. I love Zaza, but Gortat really is better.

CViggity · Post #11 » by **CViggity** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:36 am

BTW if Yao and T-Mac were healthy the Houston bench would be:

PG: Kyle Lowry
SG: Brent Barry
SF: Trevor Ariza
PF: Carl Landry
C: Luis Scola

Forget 2nd teams, that's a better 1st team than a couple squads in this league.

azuresou1 · Post #12 » by **azuresou1** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:29 am

CViggity wrote:BTW if Yao and T-Mac were healthy the Houston bench would be:

PG: Kyle Lowry
SG: Brent Barry
SF: Trevor Ariza
PF: Carl Landry
C: Luis Scola

Forget 2nd teams, that's a better 1st team than a couple squads in this league.

I love Houston, but that's not better than any starting lineup, even the Grizz or Kings. Who's supposed to carry and create for that offense? That's a classic secondary lineup to maintain leads, and not a bad one at that, but if they were starting they'd get blown out. Plus, Yao's out for the season, and T-Mac's done.

We really improved our bench greatly, but it's premature to call us the best second team in the league, or even Top 10, because we don't know how half of them will pan out for us.

SAUCERY_SWEET · Post #13 » by **SAUCERY_SWEET** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:08 pm

Gortat is not clearly better than Zaza, you see when you have a guy like D.Howard commanding so much attention on the other side, a lot of put back layups and rebounds tend to become readily available. Gortat, i repeat--Gortat is not better than Zaza. Portlands bench that i glanced over earlier in this thread is not all that impressive and neither is Houston's. Call me homer or whatever but i just don't see the huge edge that either of those second teams have over the Hawks. Maybe someone can break it down for me or i will attempt to myself, later. :uhoh:

azuresou1 · Post #14 » by **azuresou1** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:17 pm

Gortat rarely if ever played the same time as Dwight, and he's a far better defender than Zaza.

Look at our bench objectively:

Teague: Rookie PGs are very hit-or-miss, questionable decision making, poor outside shooting
Crawford: Gunner who either goes 11/15, or 3/16
Evans: Solid role player, but nothing special
Joe Smith: Can this dinosaur even play anymore?
Zaza: Has great hustle and okay rebounding, but is a terrible defender

dpaulh · Post #15 » by **dpaulh** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:26 pm

I have to agree with azure... On any given night our bench could dominate any other bench in the league, AND on any given night our bench could get run out of the gym by other benches. Crawford has to prove he can be effective while following Woody's plan, Teague has to earn playing time before we can even consider him a contributor, and Joe Smith has to prove he can give us 20 mins per game all year. With Mo and Zaza, we know what we are going to get, they fill roles and are good at those specific roles.

CViggity · Post #16 » by **CViggity** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:05 pm

SAUCERY_SWEET wrote:Gortat is not clearly better than Zaza, you see when you have a guy like D.Howard commanding so much attention on the other side, a lot of put back layups and rebounds tend to become readily available. Gortat, i repeat--Gortat is not better than Zaza. Portlands bench that i glanced over earlier in this thread is not all that impressive and neither is Houston's. Call me homer or whatever but i just don't see the huge edge that either of those second teams have over the Hawks. Maybe someone can break it down for me or i will attempt to myself, later.

lol Gortat almost never plays with Dwight, just making things up in this thread

He's way more efficient on offense and a way better defender.

And you're definitely being a homer if you can't see why POR or HOU is a better bench.

Rudy Fernandez and Pryz and Batum are all just way better for bench players than you must think they are.

CViggity · Post #17 » by **CViggity** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:07 pm

azuresou1 wrote:Gortat rarely if ever played the same time as Dwight, and he's a far better defender than Zaza.

Look at our bench objectively:

Teague: Rookie PGs are very hit-or-miss, questionable decision making, poor outside shooting
Crawford: Gunner who either goes 11/15, or 3/16
Evans: Solid role player, but nothing special
Joe Smith: Can this dinosaur even play anymore?
Zaza: Has great hustle and okay rebounding, but is a terrible defender

You are often the only one making sense in some of these discussions.

Crawford has yet to show in his entire career that he can help a team. Evans is pretty much only a defender, and Zaza can't guard a paper bag.

We're not a horrible bench, but there are still big problems. Resigning Flip would be HUGE for the Hawks.

CViggity · Post #18 » by **CViggity** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:10 pm

Also on the Gortat discussion.

People have a false impression of Howard as some offensive dynamo. He's really not a great offensive player at all. He's the best defensive player in the league and is obviously a weapon offensively, but he doesn't really have the offensive tools to demand double teams and give Gortat all those easy baskets. He's pretty bad with his back to the basket, his touch around the rim is only average, and he has no range at all.

Gortat is just a lot better than people realize. That's why so many teams wanted to throw him so much money this offseason.

JoshB914 · Post #19 » by **JoshB914** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:22 pm

This is a pointless thread. When are our second five going to matched up with another second five? The key is to have 3 or 4 guys off the bench that you can play with your starters and produce.

azuresou1 · Post #20 » by **azuresou1** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:40 pm

That too. The only time our entire second team would be on the floor would be the first 2-3 minutes of the second quarter, and that's a maybe. That, or total blowouts.

I do think Jamal Crawford was a great pickup though... he'll be the fourth best 'newcomer' this year in terms of increased production and team impact after R-Jeff, Okafor, and VC.