Sessions Update:Ramon signs T-Wolves OS (page 310 update)

[BucksRUS]

Not sure what your point is. If Ramon was able to sign a 1 year deal with a non-Bucks team, he'd have to be a UFA right now.

Yes, and I believe he would be a RFA next year. So Ramon isn't signing any one year contract. Hence for Ramon, there is little difference between being a RFA and a UFA.

[emunney]

That's a pretty big leap. Being able to sign any contract with any team (as allowable w/r/t their situation) vs. all the pitfalls of an RFA constrained by the Arenas provision? Not even remotely close in situation. Even in the one year example, I'm sure he'd take the MLE for one year even though it means he'd be a RFA again next year, and if he was a UFA, any team that hadn't already used their MLE would be able to offer that. That's not even accounting for the myriad other options unavailable or occluded to him as a RFA.

Why would he absolutely rule out a one year contract that could quadruple his net worth in a year?

[emunney]

Also, remember that his QO next offseason would be 120% of next year's salary.

[midranger]

Not sure what your point is. If Ramon was able to sign a 1 year deal with a non-Bucks team, he'd have to be a UFA right now.

Yes, and I believe he would be a RFA next year. So Ramon isn't signing any one year contract. Hence for Ramon, there is little difference between being a RFA and a UFA.

I'm uncertain where you two are in this argument, but the bolded reply is absurd on many levels.

[unklchuk]

I don't know if Hammond truly thinks this is a playoff team. But I think he's trying to be one.

...

I'm not a fan of this "overstated" quote format, but there have been more than one comment on troubles with my "understated" technique - so I will get with the program.

I agree with Press.

And I continue to think there will be more moves of mid-significance. Or higher. There are just too many commentators making vague allusions to that. Nothing hard. But stuff like on the Krause show recently when Dennis asks the guests if they like the off-season so far, one of them says he does generally like it. And, he says with energy, they're probably going to be more moves coming. And he looks expectantly at Krause with a raised eyebrow. Pause. Nobody says anything. They move on with the conversation.

Since "more moves" fits my idea of how Trader John works, I'm putting more expectation into vague stuff like that than others would.

[LUKE23]

I'm uncertain where you two are in this argument, but the bolded reply is absurd on many levels.

It is absurd.

[BDUB_30]

I don't know if Hammond truly thinks this is a playoff team. But I think he's trying to be one.

Otherwise you simply re-sign Ramon, keep Amir since he's so young and expiring and let Alexander get major minutes at SF.

Exactally ..


I dont know if Hammond thinks this is a playoff team , and nobody else does . Implying it just sounds silly. What you can say , is hammond is trying to be a playoff team without a doubt. And thats really the only point that matters , who cares what he thinks we are , what his goals are is the important part.


Hammond is trying to be a playoff squad without a doubt , weather or not he thinks this team is a playoff team is irrelevent .

[BDUB_30]

RFA's get offers all the time . Its just excuse making from the Ramon fan club. Nobody wants to pay this guy what he wants because hes not good enough. Dance around it all you want , its the honest to god truth.


Weve heard so many excuses for this its pathetic . The same exact thing about david lee. Hes sitting unsigned because he wants a certain amount of money that nobody wants to pay .

[emunney]

RFA's get offers all the time . Its just excuse making from the Ramon fan club. Nobody wants to pay this guy what he wants because hes not good enough. Dance around it all you want , its the honest to god truth.


Weve heard so many excuses for this its pathetic . The same exact thing about david lee. Hes sitting unsigned because he wants a certain amount of money that nobody wants to pay .

Uh, yeah, that is obviously true. The relevant matter, though, is what he's asking for. If he wants 7 a year and nobody will give him that, that's very different than being unable to get 3. The real fact is that you don't know what he's asking for, nor do you know what he's being offered. So what are you talking about? Maddenisms, basically. "Ya see, the reason Sessions can't get a contract is that he can't agree on a contract with any team." Brilliant.

[BucksRUS]

I'm uncertain where you two are in this argument, but the bolded reply is absurd on many levels.

It is absurd.

Might be since it is all conjecture.

The point is that other than Ramon's ability to sign a one year contract, how has his ability to get a RFA offer different than if he was UFA? RFA's either sign above market contracts or play for the QO. If you have a Bucks team that has done everything in its power to indicate they are not interested in Ramon, what is the difference.

Ramon doesn't have enough experience that some GM is going to take a risk on signing him to a long term deal. He is a risky signing at Ramon's demands plain and simple hence the lack of interest. The market this year didn't help his cause too much either. If he had come out into next year's market things may have been different.

[LUKE23]

Ramon doesn't have enough experience that some GM is going to take a risk on signing him to a long term deal

You're acting like any long-term deal is the same thing. Young players get signed to long-term offer sheets ALL THE TIME. I don't know where you are getting this from, I really don't.

[emunney]

I'm uncertain where you two are in this argument, but the bolded reply is absurd on many levels.

It is absurd.

Might be since it is all conjecture.

The point is that other than Ramon's ability to sign a one year contract, how has his ability to get a RFA offer different than if he was UFA? RFA's either sign above market contracts or play for the QO. If you have a Bucks team that has done everything in its power to indicate they are not interested in Ramon, what is the difference.

Ramon doesn't have enough experience that some GM is going to take a risk on signing him to a long term deal. He is a risky signing at Ramon's demands plain and simple hence the lack of interest. The market this year didn't help his cause too much either. If he had come out into next year's market things may have been different.

Again, if they had done everything in their power to show they're not interested in Ramon, would they have tendered him? Would they publicly state that they preferred his return? They didn't tender CV. Even after locking up all but 1.6m of lux tax space, they still haven't pulled the tender. It seems obvious to me that they still intend on matching him if his contract is within their definition of a good contract, and I can't imagine they're doing it just in case he signs for a starting salary of 1.6m or lower. The negotiations remain open.

[BucksRUS]

RFA's get offers all the time . Its just excuse making from the Ramon fan club. Nobody wants to pay this guy what he wants because hes not good enough. Dance around it all you want , its the honest to god truth.


Weve heard so many excuses for this its pathetic . The same exact thing about david lee. Hes sitting unsigned because he wants a certain amount of money that nobody wants to pay .

Uh, yeah, that is obviously true. The relevant matter, though, is what he's asking for. If he wants 7 a year and nobody will give him that, that's very different than being unable to get 3. The real fact is that you don't know what he's asking for, nor do you know what he's being offered. So what are you talking about? Maddenisms, basically. "Ya see, the reason Sessions can't get a contract is that he can't agree on a contract with any team." Brilliant.

We don't know exactly what he is looking for other than statements from beat writers who are to be trusted only as far as their sources. Maybe, but Sessions can't command over the MLE for the first two seasons. So since no team can give him 7 a year, what is the point. Half the teams in the NBA still have enough money to sign Ramon to a MLE offer, so why haven't they?

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Ramon doesn't have enough experience that some GM is going to take a risk on signing him to a long term deal

You're acting like any long-term deal is the same thing. Young players get signed to long-term offer sheets ALL THE TIME. I don't know where you are getting this from, I really don't.

all the time? its a different day in the nba now. and young point gaurds who cant shoot, and dont play defense apparently dont get mle long term offers anymore.

i dont see any reason why we should be the ones either. its better to spend our money on players we can deal easily on 1-2 year contracts, or that fill holes if they are gonna be that flawed.

[LUKE23]

i dont see any reason why we should be the ones either. its better to spend our money on players we can deal easily on 1-2 year contracts, or that fill holes if they are gonna be that flawed.

For Sessions "flawed" game, he'd be the third best player on this team next year, quite clearly (barring Jennings overplaying year 1 expectations by a huge amount). Yes, that is telling of the lack of talent on the Bucks, but to call Sessions flawed and then praise guys like Warrick, Delfino, and Ukic as assets is just funny to me.

[smooth 'lil balla]

i dont see any reason why we should be the ones either. its better to spend our money on players we can deal easily on 1-2 year contracts, or that fill holes if they are gonna be that flawed.

For Sessions "flawed" game, he'd be the third best player on this team next year, quite clearly (barring Jennings overplaying year 1 expectations by a huge amount). Yes, that is telling of the lack of talent on the Bucks, but to call Sessions flawed and then praise guys like Warrick, Delfino, and Ukic as assets is just funny to me.

Luke, he's calling those guys assets based on their contract. If Sessions were on a 1-2 year deal, he'd obviously be an asset. It's about contract length.

[LUKE23]

Luke, he's calling those guys assets based on their contract. If Sessions were on a 1-2 year deal, he'd obviously be an asset. It's about contract length.

If Sessions got the $4M per year that is now rumored, he'd be an asset even if he was signed for 3-4 years at that amount. He was already worth $4M per year based on his 2008-09 play.

[BucksRUS]

Again, if they had done everything in their power to show they're not interested in Ramon, would they have tendered him? Would they publicly state that they preferred his return? They didn't tender CV. Even after locking up all but 1.6m of lux tax space, they still haven't pulled the tender. It seems obvious to me that they still intend on matching him if his contract is within their definition of a good contract, and I can't imagine they're doing it just in case he signs for a starting salary of 1.6m or lower. The negotiations remain open.

The Bucks can't revoke the tender, since it is past July 23. If Sessions doesn't accept the QO by the date on that QO, then the Bucks can pull it. The QO was only $1 mil and they were fine with him playing on the team this year. So why not offer it? He is still a positive asset.

I don't think Hammond wanted CV on the team. If he had tendered CV a QO, what chance is there that CV would be a Buck. I would guess it is a greater chance than Hammond wanted to gamble on.

[emunney]

RFA's get offers all the time . Its just excuse making from the Ramon fan club. Nobody wants to pay this guy what he wants because hes not good enough. Dance around it all you want , its the honest to god truth.


Weve heard so many excuses for this its pathetic . The same exact thing about david lee. Hes sitting unsigned because he wants a certain amount of money that nobody wants to pay .

Uh, yeah, that is obviously true. The relevant matter, though, is what he's asking for. If he wants 7 a year and nobody will give him that, that's very different than being unable to get 3. The real fact is that you don't know what he's asking for, nor do you know what he's being offered. So what are you talking about? Maddenisms, basically. "Ya see, the reason Sessions can't get a contract is that he can't agree on a contract with any team." Brilliant.

We don't know exactly what he is looking for other than statements from beat writers who are to be trusted only as far as their sources. Maybe, but Sessions can't command over the MLE for the first two seasons. So since no team can give him 7 a year, what is the point. Half the teams in the NBA still have enough money to sign Ramon to a MLE offer, so why haven't they?

What do you mean? First off, the full MLE is ~6.7m/yr. 2nd, they haven't given him that offer because they don't want to pay him that much money for what could be any number of reasons. Maybe they don't think he's good enough, maybe they're too close to the luxury tax, maybe they're saving it for 2010, maybe their owner is hemorrhaging worth... who knows? Not you nor I.

Let's get back to the RFA/UFA thing. Please find another way to explain why you think they're the same for Sessions, given that no team wants to offer him the MLE, no team (except the Bucks) can offer him a one year contract, and the Bucks can match any offer deemed reasonable. You've said yourself that RFAs typically sign, when they sign, for ABOVE market value, to try to ensure their original team won't match. Isn't that alone enough to make RFA and UFA very different for Ramon? Could it be that the reason the Knicks, for example, haven't offered him a contract yet is that they DO want him, and they don't want to offer something the Bucks will match -- thus losing any chance at him -- yet they don't want to tie up too much money for 2010? And that maybe they're working on something to free up space so that the weight of the latter decreases?

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Luke, he's calling those guys assets based on their contract. If Sessions were on a 1-2 year deal, he'd obviously be an asset. It's about contract length.

If Sessions got the $4M per year that is now rumored, he'd be an asset even if he was signed for 3-4 years at that amount. He was already worth $4M per year based on his 2008-09 play.

worth 4mil to who?

at this trade deadline...
warrick at 3 mil on a one year deal is a bigger asset in trade than sessions on a multiyear deal at 3-4 mil.... and it isnt even close.