Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...)

Moderators: Inigo Montoya, FJS

User avatar
QuantumMacgyver
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,453
And1: 42
Joined: Jul 07, 2008

Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#1 » by QuantumMacgyver » Sun Sep 6, 2009 4:16 am

I understand this has already been discussed, a lot, but it's a slow and boring time for us fans and it's not looking to improve anytime before the start of the season so its worth revisiting.

Carlos Boozer to NY for David Lee?

Everyones argument here is "Why would we want to improve NY situation when we have the rights to their pick, a potentially very valuable pick at that?" but I see David Lee helping a team win more so than Boozer. Boozer may put up better numbers than David Lee but Boozer has proven that his stats rarely translate to W's. On the other hand there was an interesting article on Hoopsworld.com, http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=13745, illustrating how David Lee's numbers typically don't come at the expense of his teammates, unlike Boozer's. Plus Boozer will have a difficult time putting up the same numbers without a good point guard to support his game and the Knicks missing out on Sessions seems fortunate for us in this situation.

So wouldn't it be in the Jazz's best interest to remove The Knicks best player from their roster?

I understand that we already have Millsap but wouldn't D. Lee's contract be more appetizing to teams than Boozer's? This is all assuming that D. Lee were to sign a contract similar to Millsaps but maybe averaging out around 9 million a season. He's not going to get the 12 million a season his agents thinks he will.

Anyway, It seems like we could kill three birds with one stone here. Get Boozer off the team while getting young talent in return and reducing our cap, and also weakening the Knicks thus improving our draft pick value.
stevebozell
Starter
Posts: 2,285
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Location: Deloris Blazingame's office

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#2 » by stevebozell » Sun Sep 6, 2009 4:22 am

Dont we have a much better record WITH Boozer in the lineup than we have had with him out?

I dont like him much, but he definitely would make NY better.
ColdBlue wrote:I think NJN should go to the cave and whip up a Sloan + NJN + anal lube = Championship sig.
User avatar
QuantumMacgyver
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,453
And1: 42
Joined: Jul 07, 2008

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#3 » by QuantumMacgyver » Sun Sep 6, 2009 10:59 am

stevebozell wrote:Dont we have a much better record WITH Boozer in the lineup than we have had with him out?

I dont like him much, but he definitely would make NY better.



Actually no, our record last year was better without Boozer. Last year, especially the playoffs, was the perfect example of how Boozer can put up great numbers without actually helping his team win. Don't forget we were riding an 11 game win streak before Boozer came back to the line-up. After Boozer returned we went something like 7-9.
Did Zach Randolph help the Knicks win? He puts up comparable stats to Boozer. Whats so much better about Boozer being in NY than Z-Bo? Given Boozer won't chuck up fade away three pointers.
I agree that adding Boozer to the Knicks current line-up would make them better. What I am saying is that I don't think swapping Boozer in for David Lee coming out makes them any better. Especially given Boozer's injury history.
stevebozell
Starter
Posts: 2,285
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Location: Deloris Blazingame's office

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#4 » by stevebozell » Sun Sep 6, 2009 2:52 pm

I dont think youre right...I know David Locke has pointed this out many times to the people who call in thinking we are better off with Millsap over Boozer.

It just isnt true. If you can find those exact numbers and prove me wrong, fine, but I know Ive heard otherwise from soneome who has done his homework.
ColdBlue wrote:I think NJN should go to the cave and whip up a Sloan + NJN + anal lube = Championship sig.
User avatar
Jazztastico
Ballboy
Posts: 35
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 11, 2009
Location: jolly old England

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#5 » by Jazztastico » Sun Sep 6, 2009 4:01 pm

I wouldnt mind Hill and Nate for Boozer. We get a prospect to back up Milly for 4 years for cheap, and we get one of the best 6th men in the game who could share court time with Deron. If we got Nate for 4/5mil I'd do that.
User avatar
DelaneyRudd
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 104,536
And1: 9,467
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
     

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#6 » by DelaneyRudd » Sun Sep 6, 2009 4:05 pm

The Jazz already have a long term PF, so Lee makes little sense for the money. If they need another PF they can get one with a rookie scale contract.
User avatar
QuantumMacgyver
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,453
And1: 42
Joined: Jul 07, 2008

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#7 » by QuantumMacgyver » Mon Sep 7, 2009 5:56 pm

This is our record with and without Boozer.(including playoffs)

W/Booz-21-19 W/O Booz-28-19
52% 59%

Games with Boozer range from the beginning of the season up to Nov 19 and then from March 1st through the playoffs, even though Boozers first game back was Feb 23 at Atlanta. Boozer didn't contribute much the first few games so the "games with Boozer" start again once he seemed to return to form and was in a solid rotation, hence the March 1st game against G.S. where he lead in a statistical category, that being rebounds. This is only a 3 game difference with a 3 wins difference.

W/Booz-24-19 W/O BOOZ-25-29
55% 56%

So statistically the Jazz did have a better record last year without Boozer.

Here are some other interesting stats to look at. These are wins when either of our 3 big men have their "best" games. Thats games leading in POINTS, REBOUNDS and also games where they led in both.

POINTS REBOUNDS BOTH
MEMO 16-3 (84%) 10-14 (42%) 3-1 (75%)

MILLSAP 4-6 (40%) 20-9 (69%) 3-3 (50%)

BOOZER 8-7 (53%) 14-14 (50%) 5-7 (42%)

It would seem the Jazz are at their best when Memo leads in scoring, Millsap leads in rebounds and Boozer leads in minutes spent on the bench.

Note that Boozer is the only player who has a losing record when leading in both categories.

Boozer is also the only player who doesn't have a decided edge in any category with 53% being his strongest showing. Compare that to Millsaps 69% win percentage when leading in rebounds and Memos 84% winning percentage when leading in scoring.
User avatar
QuantumMacgyver
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,453
And1: 42
Joined: Jul 07, 2008

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#8 » by QuantumMacgyver » Mon Sep 7, 2009 5:57 pm

People can argue that this doesn't account for any intangibles, which is true, but Boozer rarely contributes in any facet that isn't scoring or rebounding. I am not a Boozer hater, just stating the fact as best as I can see it. I got the wins/losses schedule off of espn.com and added them all up myself so there is definitely chance for error. If anyone finds a mistake in my math please note it. But this is what I came up with and it definitely seems to support the theory that Boozers numbers do not necessarily translate into wins.
User avatar
DelaneyRudd
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 104,536
And1: 9,467
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
     

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#9 » by DelaneyRudd » Mon Sep 7, 2009 6:33 pm

But I don't think paying Lee for years and helping the Knicks now is good for the Jazz. The top 10 in next year's draft has 5 PFs likely better than Lee.
User avatar
QuantumMacgyver
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,453
And1: 42
Joined: Jul 07, 2008

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#10 » by QuantumMacgyver » Mon Sep 7, 2009 7:00 pm

DelaneyRudd wrote:But I don't think paying Lee for years and helping the Knicks now is good for the Jazz. The top 10 in next year's draft has 5 PFs likely better than Lee.



That is the point of my post and analysis. I don't see how adding Boozer to their roster makes them better. Especially when taking their best player in return. We'd basically be trading Boozer to NY to weaken their roster. D. Lee will help the Knicks win more games than Boozer would. I understand Millsap is our PF but I'd have to imagine that unless D. Lee is signed to a ridiculous contract that he would be more appealing to most teams in a trade scenario than Boozer.

So we trade Boozer and his baggage for a higher draft pick and a solid player who many teams in the league like but can't get because NY is only going to take back expiring contracts for. I think most teams would be willing to give up more for D. Lee than Boozer.
stevebozell
Starter
Posts: 2,285
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Location: Deloris Blazingame's office

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#11 » by stevebozell » Mon Sep 7, 2009 7:42 pm

Well I would bet there is some error there, unless Locke went on the air with bad stats.

Either way, your argument is that he wouldnt make the KNICKS better. Couldnt you say that Utah has been better with Boozer, than NY has with Lee?

I know there is much more to a teams success or lack there of, but what has Lee done to make NY win? Not much, obviously.
ColdBlue wrote:I think NJN should go to the cave and whip up a Sloan + NJN + anal lube = Championship sig.
User avatar
QuantumMacgyver
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,453
And1: 42
Joined: Jul 07, 2008

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#12 » by QuantumMacgyver » Mon Sep 7, 2009 10:08 pm

stevebozell wrote:Well I would bet there is some error there, unless Locke went on the air with bad stats.

Either way, your argument is that he wouldnt make the KNICKS better. Couldnt you say that Utah has been better with Boozer, than NY has with Lee?

I know there is much more to a teams success or lack there of, but what has Lee done to make NY win? Not much, obviously.


Wait, So I don't want to put words in anyones mouth but are you implying that the rosters of the Knicks and the Jazz are comparable and that bad teams never have good players?
That Nate Robinson is comparable to Williams? Eddy Curry with Memo? Wilson Chandler with AK?
That Kevin Garnet wasn't any good until he went to Boston. Pau Gasol wasn't any good until he went to L.A..

And actually I can't say that Utah has been better with Boozer than NY has been with Lee.
26-56 Utah Jazz record after first season with Boozer.
32-50 Knicks record last year with Lee.

So apparently David Lee has done more to make the Knicks win then Boozer has the Jazz seeing as how our roster in 2004 was far better than NYs was last year.
David Lee is the best player on the Knicks with an argument to be made for Nate. Would your argument be that Boozer is the best player on the Jazz and the reason for Utah's success over the last few years? Because he wasn't, Williams is. 26-56 record with Boozer on the roster, and Williams not, proves that. Put Williams on that Knicks roster and they would win more than 26 games.

You're more than welcome to re-calculate the statistics that I've posted but lets not simply disregard them because they don't support our points. If anyone wants to re-calculate them please do.
loserX
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 45,496
And1: 26,048
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
       

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#13 » by loserX » Tue Sep 8, 2009 6:40 pm

QuantumMacgyver wrote:People can argue that this doesn't account for any intangibles, which is true, but Boozer rarely contributes in any facet that isn't scoring or rebounding.


And what does Lee contribute?

I think Boozer would help the Knicks win more games next year, thus crippling our draft pick. So that's a "no" from us.

I also think that it makes no sense to take on Lee for at LEAST $9.6M/year (that's what it would take to swap for Boozer's salary under the CBA) when we've just signed Millsap for less than that, and Millsap would start over Lee. So that's another "no" from us.

And all that is assuming that Lee would sign a contract with us when he knows he's never going to start. So quite likely a "no" from him as well.
User avatar
StocktonShorts
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 13,386
And1: 2,551
Joined: Jun 02, 2009
   

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#14 » by StocktonShorts » Tue Sep 8, 2009 8:22 pm

stevebozell wrote:Well I would bet there is some error there, unless Locke went on the air with bad stats.

Either way, your argument is that he wouldnt make the KNICKS better. Couldnt you say that Utah has been better with Boozer, than NY has with Lee?

I know there is much more to a teams success or lack there of, but what has Lee done to make NY win? Not much, obviously.


I added up the numbers earlier this summer and he's right: Jazz were better last season without Boozer than with him. But that doesn't really answer the question people want to know:

Will the Jazz be better next season with Millsap or Boozer getting the bulk of the PF minutes?

No one, not even almighty David Locke, has the stats to answer that question.
Image
User avatar
QuantumMacgyver
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,453
And1: 42
Joined: Jul 07, 2008

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#15 » by QuantumMacgyver » Tue Sep 8, 2009 8:49 pm

loserX wrote:And what does Lee contribute?


Have you ever seen David Lee play?

I'm not saying that the Jazz keep Lee. I think Lee's contract would be more valuable in trade scenarios than Boozers. Unless there is a restriction on trading "sign-and-trade" players. I don't know much about those details.
hoops4life
General Manager
Posts: 9,121
And1: 31
Joined: May 17, 2005

Re: Boozer for D. Lee? (I know...) 

Post#16 » by hoops4life » Tue Sep 8, 2009 8:53 pm

We an incredibly boring and terrible offseason. I only check this board maybe once a week, if that these days.

Return to Utah Jazz