Nash: Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles

[Amen316]

More power to Nash look before he came to Phoenix Mark Cuban opted for Jason Terry whom was a 2 trying to convert to a pg. I do not ever recall someone reinventing themselves like Nash did. Yea it is 90pct the system which was taylored for him but the truth is there is maybe one guard out there in Chris Paul that could run the way Nash did.
2 Mvps I shake my head and say wow, whether I wouldve voted for him or not simply wow

[the_warden]

The level of ownage mitchweber is dropping in this thread should not be allowed. It's not fair.

Also: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL @ Marion being a top 5 defender at PF. That's just a preposterous statement.

[CoolD]

Level of ownage.
Dallas Finals appearances without Nash 1.
Dallas had its best regular season record without Nash.
Nash has never been the most efficient player of his team in Phoenix.
He is always behind Marion and Amare, can't remember a guy that gets all the credit, when doing so little.
Amare has pawn Tim Duncan in the Playoffs.
Tony Parker pawns the crap out Nash in the Playoffs.
Meaning, the so called MVP always is the weak link, when supposedly playing the team that has their number.

Chauncy Billups has actually won a title, never has been close to winning a MVP, plays pretty good defense to add. But never has anyone been stupid enough to give him a MVP, because MVP you have to be considered all time great. .
Mike Bibby was also a huge piece for Sacramento Kings, good P.G's with loaded teams, always look better, than they really are. Time after time this pattern is proven in history.

I will enjoy Nash struggle his last years, without D'Antoni. Just hope the coach doesn't ask him to play a little bit of D, might be too hard on the MVP.

[mavfan12]

Cavs - This is really the strongest argument I can find, but even still. The Cavs won 50 games, but in a still pretty weak eastern conference--and Lebron's supporting cast wasn't really all that much worse than Nash's.

Really? LeBron had so little then it's not even funny. If he and Nash switched places there'd be a title in Phoenix.

[the_warden]

Cavs - This is really the strongest argument I can find, but even still. The Cavs won 50 games, but in a still pretty weak eastern conference--and Lebron's supporting cast wasn't really all that much worse than Nash's.

Really? LeBron had so little then it's not even funny. If he and Nash switched places there'd be a title in Phoenix.

In 2006? When Amare was out for the year?

[draft]

If the Suns were in the east, Nash would have had a title by now. The West has been loaded for a while now.

[pillwenney]

Level of ownage.
Dallas Finals appearances without Nash 1.
Dallas had its best regular season record without Nash.

Both things are completely irrelevant.

Nash has never been the most efficient player of his team in Phoenix.
He is always behind Marion and Amare, can't remember a guy that gets all the credit, when doing so little.
Amare has pawn Tim Duncan in the Playoffs.
Tony Parker pawns the crap out Nash in the Playoffs.
Meaning, the so called MVP always is the weak link, when supposedly playing the team that has their number.

Or you could actually look at the context of the situations. Amare and Marion were both greatly helped out by Nash. Neither is particularly great at creating their own shot. Nash was amazing at creating shots for them. Just look at the difference between Amare in 03-04, and then 04-05. Sure you could attribute some of that to maturing, but much more of the credit has to go to Nash. Amare got drastically more efficient and proficient that season without really adding that much to his game.

Chauncy Billups has actually won a title, never has been close to winning a MVP, plays pretty good defense to add. But never has anyone been stupid enough to give him a MVP, because MVP you have to be considered all time great. .
Mike Bibby was also a huge piece for Sacramento Kings, good P.G's with loaded teams, always look better, than they really are. Time after time this pattern is proven in history.

Chauncey was never as important to a very successful team as Nash. Never. Not even close.

And no, to get an MVP you don't have to be considered an all-time great. You have to be one of the most valuable players in the league in a given season. That's why it's called the Most Valuable Player award, and not "One of the guys who should be considered an all-time great in general" award.

I don't know why you continue to completely ignore my main argument about Bibby. He wasn't the one doing most of the playmaking in Sac. Nash has been doing the vast majority of the playmaking in Phoenix and thus is more key to their success than Bibby was in Sac. You can't just keep ignoring this point, as its the key difference between the two situations (other than Nash just being better).

I will enjoy Nash struggle his last years, without D'Antoni. Just hope the coach doesn't ask him to play a little bit of D, might be too hard on the MVP.

Now why would you enjoy somebody struggling? Could it be because you have a bias against them, and thus are unqualified to objectively debate about them?

[druggas]

Look at the players that played with Nash and left. Look at how their stats fell way off.

That's because MVP Nash made these guys look better which is what MVPs do!

[pillwenney]

Cavs - This is really the strongest argument I can find, but even still. The Cavs won 50 games, but in a still pretty weak eastern conference--and Lebron's supporting cast wasn't really all that much worse than Nash's.

Really? LeBron had so little then it's not even funny. If he and Nash switched places there'd be a title in Phoenix.

There are a couple of things to consider. Both had one all-star (not sure if Z was selected that year, but he was likely at least in consideration, and has been selected before). Marion was better than Z, but Z was also a center, which made him quite valuable. Along with that, it's a comparison between Gooden, Hughes, Varejao, Snow, Marshall, and Pavlovic, and the rest of Nash's cast, which was Diaw, Bell, Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, Barbosa, House and James Jones. Nash's group is better--I'm just saying that there isn't a really huge gap.

[TiMVP]

Nash: I'm a loser

[Hitman33]

Nash is right.

And it's not like his legacy would somehow be enhanced if he took the minimum to go ride the pine in LA or Boston or something, ala Gary Payton.


I would have given Nash's first MVP to Shaq, and his second to Dirk.

Exactly. Reading this thread made me remember why I've avoided message boards lately.

Steve Nash said in an interview that he won't view his career as a failure if he fails to win a championship. And people typing from their basement on a message board write that Steve Nash, the two time NBA MVP, olympian, 5 time all star and the greatest basketball player in the history of the entire country of Canada sucks and is not "elite" in their eyes because he played no defense.

These people are idiots and simply ignorant. For three seasons, Steve Nash was one of the top 3 basketball players in the world. Maybe Shaq could have won it in 2005. I thought Dirk should have. In 2006, I thought Dirk definitely should have won it, though Nash did somehow will the Suns to 54 victories, Dirk won 60. Ironically, I thought Nash really deserved it in 2007, but there was no way they could have voted him 3 times in a row. But after winning MVP the first time, Steve Nash actually got better. Way better. At his best he was one of the most skilled players in history, a maestro on the court. It was a beautiful thing to watch. Too bad he never made it to the finals, but they definitely suffered some bad breaks.

Steve Nash is a warrior and all the haters that take time out of their busy days to spread their hate, maybe they should get out of the basement and take a couple of shots or something.

[Hitman33]

I've watched Haslem all his career, he is not a better defender. Kenyon Martin, watching the Denver Nuggets have the worst defense in the league a couple years with Martin Camby, yeah okay.
Gasol is not that good of a defender, he is tall though,
Most of those names are desperate attempts.
Also when Nash left Dallas, they happen to go to the Finals, and had a 67 win season, without Nash.
When Nash came in, also D''Antoni came in. Amare was in his second year, where young players make that leap.

Like I said
Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson
Vlade, Webber, Peja

I would flip a coin on who is better trio to play along with.
Ofcourse the teams are not exactly the same, but in premise they are really close.
Nash didn't look that good in Dallas, because of D'Antoni.
That is what people don't seem to get.
Nash impact was just the perfect place, at the perfect time, similar to Mike Bibby in that sense.
Young studs in Amare and Joe Johnson, diverse unheralded Shawn Marion, and brand new coach, that his system caught the league by surprise.
Nash totally was able to bamboozle his way to his cheap MVP's.

Yes. All of those players are better defenders at the PF position. Easily. Marion, like basically everyone who is 6' 7" 220 lbs, is simply too small to guard other PFs. It's that simple. Put Marion against a good scoring PF and he will do a worse job than all of those defenders.

And just listing the trios is completely misleading for two reasons.
1) That trio played with Q-Rich, an aging Jim Jackson and Barbosa. That was about it. That Kings trio played with Christie, B-Jax, Pollard, Turkoglu and later on, a younger Jim Jackson and Keon Clark. It's also misleading because Johnson wasn't quite the Joe Johnson we would later see in Atlanta.
Christie>QRich
A prime B-Jax>>>>A young Barbosa
young Hedo (and later on, a younger Jim Jackson)>>older Jim Jackson
Pollard (later Keon)>>>>spot minutes from Steven Hunter
2)I have, throughout these posts, been talking primarily of the 05-06 season, when Nash carried that team to 54 wins, and later on, the WCF--with only Marion remaining from that great trio you mentioned.

But no, regardless of this, they are not remotely close in premise for one reason that I have stated multiple times now--the context of the offense. Nash was the center of everything Phoenix did. The team could not function anywhere near the same without Nash. Bibby was not the center of everything the Kings did--Chris and Vlade were. The Kings started the 02-03 season without Bibby, and went 15-5. Thus his value to the Kings was not even remotely close, in any way, to Nash's value to the Suns. There is no similarity in premise here. The Kings went from very good to elite with Bibby. The Suns went from bad to elite with Nash.

And you're also wrong about D'Antoni. He had taken over the year before for them, and went 20-41 3 quarters of a season. When Nash came in, it would take him almost two years to lose another 41 games.

You can bring up Dallas, sure (even though they were a completely different team by the time they made the finals). And I am by no means saying that Nash was the best over all player in those years--but that's not what the MVP award is. If it was called "The best player in the league", you would have a stronger argument. But it's not. It's about which player is the most valuable to their team. Nash absolutely was that for 05-06, and arguably in 04-05. Without him in those two years, the team was 2-8. With him, they were 114-40.

MVP is which is the most Valuable player in the league.
Just because Nash might have been the MVP with in his own team.
Like Billups was MVP to Detroit Pistons, a good team, but Billups is not MVP material.

That is why every multiple MVP has probably has a Championship, and Finals appearances, oddly enough, Nash doesn't have even one finals appearances, none less a title.

Just look at history of some of the list of multiple MVP winners.

Bill Russel, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem Duncan, Moses Malone

Even Shaq, Kobe

don't have multiple MVP's.

While fake fraud never been to a Finals Nash is with the likes of Jordan. What a mockery.

You do realize that the award is given for the 82 game regular season?

Everyone knows why Shaq doesn't have multiple MVPs. He often took the regular season off. Is Steve Nash an unlikely multiple MVP winner? Absolutely. Undeserving? Of course not.

[CoolD]

Let me get this straight. So Nash supposedly coming in an making Phoenix better is important, but him leaving an making Dallas better at the same time is not important.
Also you could make a case for Mo Williams being last years MVP if you use the Nash logic, the year the add him Cavs made the jump into the best regular season team. So the fact that Mo Williams just like Nash is not even the most efficient player of his own team, but the fact he fitted well to a team that is coming along well and the team makes the jump.

Ofcourse is 82 game MVP, but answer why the year Detroit and even Boston had the best record, why none of those teams had the MVP of the league.
Detroit no one thought none of the players were worthy.
Boston the big three took some votes from each other.
Funny part is the reason why the big three take votes from each other, because they are efficient.
Nash was behind Marion and Amare time after time in efficiency. But the media for some reason ignore this, and acted like he was LeBron carrying a team. And the most amazing thing, they did it twice. Sometimes they make the mistake one year, but next year the correct it. Nash has been the total exception. Fraud.

[CoolD]

Look at the players that played with Nash and left. Look at how their stats fell way off.

That's because MVP Nash made these guys look better which is what MVPs do!

Why did Nash also inflated his own stats playing for D'Antoni, and not in Dallas, could it be that the system is inflating stats, not really Nash, just put Tony Parker, and flip Nash to the Spurs where he has to play defense, I put my money on the Suns with Parker beats Spurs with Nash because Parker and Amare usually outplay Nash and Duncan, but because Nash is the weakest link of them all, Phoenix gets eliminated when facing off each other .
Why did Joe Johnson has turn into a top SG after leaving.
Just wait till Amare goes to Finals after he leaves the Suns and Nash, and you will singing a different tune. Kind of like Kobe can't win it without Shaq junk that was proven wrong.

[raptorforlife88]

Why did Nash also inflated his own stats playing for D'Antoni, and not in Dallas, could it be that the system is inflating stats, not really Nash, just put Tony Parker, and flip Nash to the Spurs where he has to play defense, I put my money on the Suns with Parker beats Spurs with Nash because Parker and Amare usually outplay Nash and Duncan, but because Nash is the weakest link of them all, Phoenix gets eliminated when facing off each other .
Why did Joe Johnson has turn into a top SG after leaving.
.

Parker is a great scorer and not a great passer. He wouldn't fit in D'Antoni's system. You act as if you can stick any player in D'Antoni's system and make them better which is both false and stupid. The biggest example of that is Chris Duhon whose stats have stayed exactly the same going from Chicago to D'Antoni.

Why did Joe Johnson turn into a top SG? Well this is going to be interesting. It's because just like Nash, Johnson is talented enough to be a first option and when given the oppurtunity in Atlanta he became a star... Just like freaking Nash!!! Isn't that incredible. Thank you for proving the other sides point there as well.

[CoolD]

Parker is much better player than Duhon, thanks for playing, I see Duhon adding 3.2 assist per game, and having his highest scoring season ever playing with D'antoni, yeah they look exactly the same.
Parker is a much better slasher than Nash, has been a part of 3 time Championship team, but am sure I rather have my fake MVP's to sleep better at night than 3 titles while getting pawn by the guy that has 3 titles.

And right now Knicks have horrible bigs, I bet you Duhon with Amare and Marion, would actually start looking even more impressive.

[raptorforlife88]

Parker is much better player for Duhon, thanks for playing, I see Duhon adding 3.2 assist per game, and having his highest scoring season ever playing with D'antoni, yeah they look exactly the same..

You can't really be serious can you? Ok let's go through this. You can't use he per game stats for Duhon when comparing them to this year because he plays over ten minutes more than he has generally during his career. This is generally what happens when you are made starter. So what we use instead are Per 36. Per 36 shows that Duhon scored a walloping .9 points more and an astounding .5 assists more than his career average. Another helpful stat here is assist percentage which shows the percentage of possessions a player assists on a basket while on the floor. Duhon assisted on 27.9% of his teams possessions. This is lower than his career high of 28.6% in his first year with Chicago. Meaning D'Antoni ball did not allow Duhon to rack up the assists.

Moving from assists did Duhon's offensive efficiency increase at all. No. He had a 111 ORTG which tied his previous career high. Did he do anything at all better really? Not really. D'Antoni ball did nothing for Duhon.

[CoolD]

He also has his best F.G percentage ever, 3 point percentage ever. FT shooter ever

And when you play more minutes is harder to maintain efficiency.
That is why LeBron this year played less minutes, but probably was more efficient per minute.
Nate Robinson another player had career highs under D'Antoni.

[pross]

Look at the players that played with Nash and left. Look at how their stats fell way off.

That's because MVP Nash made these guys look better which is what MVPs do!

Why did Nash also inflated his own stats playing for D'Antoni, and not in Dallas, could it be that the system is inflating stats, not really Nash, just put Tony Parker, and flip Nash to the Spurs where he has to play defense, I put my money on the Suns with Parker beats Spurs with Nash because Parker and Amare usually outplay Nash and Duncan, but because Nash is the weakest link of them all, Phoenix gets eliminated when facing off each other .
Why did Joe Johnson has turn into a top SG after leaving.
Just wait till Amare goes to Finals after he leaves the Suns and Nash, and you will singing a different tune. Kind of like Kobe can't win it without Shaq junk that was proven wrong.

You really aren't that smart are you? There is nothing I can really add that no one else has said. Steve Nash's MVP's were deserved. It could have gone either way with him and Shaq 05 and then the same with Dirk in 06.

[druggas]

I can't believe that I am defending Nash to you. Do you ever watch him play?

If you think that Nash doesn't make his teammates better, then you are either blind or just hate Nash.

And thinking that Parker plays any defense is just as laughable as Nash d'ing up.