Agent Zero Is Back!!!

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NYKnick87
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#21 » by NYKnick87 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:08 pm

tsherkin wrote:Patterns is wrong, here, at least to some extent.

FG% is a valuable measure for evaluating people in some ways. Given the volume of 3s he took, the "efficiency" of his shooting is relative; this is the Iverson argument, only with 3s AND FTAs instead of just FTAs. High-volume, low-raw FG% chuckery is still a problem, especially when the 3P% isn't spectacular.

Look at it this way; in 06-07, he had 32 games where he played 30+ minutes and shot under 40%. He had 21 games over 48%. He was a streaky guy; when he was on, he could shoot you out of a hole, but when he wasn't, he'd put you into one.

In those 32 games, he MISSED an average of 14.2 shots a game while taking an average of 20.4.

Regardless of whether he hit his threes or not (he shot 23.2% from downtown in those games on about 7.7 3PA/g), he was still missing left, right and center. Not all of those misses were rebounded by the Wizards.

When you're primarily a perimeter shooter, raw FG% matters. Arenas drives, and he draws fouls (and because he's played mostly from 04-05 forward, he's drawn fouls very well for a wing), but it would be a mistake to only look at eFG% and TS% to evaluate his efficiency.

BULK FG-missed still represent a problem.


Thank you.

Anyone who evaluates Gil's offensive efficiency using FG% is wrong, as is anybody who evaluates him using TS% and eFG%. The truth is closer to somewhere in the middle.

That aside, I still view Arenas as a chucker :D
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#22 » by Patterns » Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:16 pm

tsherkin wrote:Patterns is wrong, here, at least to some extent.

FG% is a valuable measure for evaluating people in some ways. Given the volume of 3s he took, the "efficiency" of his shooting is relative; this is the Iverson argument, only with 3s AND FTAs instead of just FTAs. High-volume, low-raw FG% chuckery is still a problem, especially when the 3P% isn't spectacular.

Look at it this way; in 06-07, he had 32 games where he played 30+ minutes and shot under 40%. He had 21 games over 48%. He was a streaky guy; when he was on, he could shoot you out of a hole, but when he wasn't, he'd put you into one.

In those 32 games, he MISSED an average of 14.2 shots a game while taking an average of 20.4.

Regardless of whether he hit his threes or not (he shot 23.2% from downtown in those games on about 7.7 3PA/g), he was still missing left, right and center. Not all of those misses were rebounded by the Wizards.

When you're primarily a perimeter shooter, raw FG% matters. Arenas drives, and he draws fouls (and because he's played mostly from 04-05 forward, he's drawn fouls very well for a wing), but it would be a mistake to only look at eFG% and TS% to evaluate his efficiency.

BULK FG-missed still represent a problem.

You are wrong here, to some extent. You know very well what TS% and eFG% represents. When we talk about efficiency, what we want is an average, not streaks. Anyone can go on streaks and slumps but what we want is overall efficiency. If you want to look at streaks, you can look up his stats from game to game but in this context, FG% is pretty much useless.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#23 » by NYKnick87 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:36 pm

Patterns wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Patterns is wrong, here, at least to some extent.

FG% is a valuable measure for evaluating people in some ways. Given the volume of 3s he took, the "efficiency" of his shooting is relative; this is the Iverson argument, only with 3s AND FTAs instead of just FTAs. High-volume, low-raw FG% chuckery is still a problem, especially when the 3P% isn't spectacular.

Look at it this way; in 06-07, he had 32 games where he played 30+ minutes and shot under 40%. He had 21 games over 48%. He was a streaky guy; when he was on, he could shoot you out of a hole, but when he wasn't, he'd put you into one.

In those 32 games, he MISSED an average of 14.2 shots a game while taking an average of 20.4.

Regardless of whether he hit his threes or not (he shot 23.2% from downtown in those games on about 7.7 3PA/g), he was still missing left, right and center. Not all of those misses were rebounded by the Wizards.

When you're primarily a perimeter shooter, raw FG% matters. Arenas drives, and he draws fouls (and because he's played mostly from 04-05 forward, he's drawn fouls very well for a wing), but it would be a mistake to only look at eFG% and TS% to evaluate his efficiency.

BULK FG-missed still represent a problem.

You are wrong here, to some extent. You know very well what TS% and eFG% represents. When we talk about efficiency, what we want is an average, not streaks. Anyone can go on streaks and slumps but what we want is overall efficiency. If you want to look at streaks, you can look up his stats from game to game but in this context, FG% is pretty much useless.


I'm sorry, but in Gilbert's case, the only reason he appears to be efficient is because he masks his shytty games with some exceptional ones. To me, that's not being efficient. He's more or less just covering up his tracks.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#24 » by Malinhion » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:33 pm

No, that's the point. The reliability of FG% is that it represents not only point production, but that it gives you some indication of a player's consistency from night to night. FG% is correlated with similarity in night-to-night point production.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#25 » by Rocky5000 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:55 pm

Good for the NBA and very good for the guy who gave him that gigantic contract.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#26 » by Patterns » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:12 pm

Malinhion wrote:No, that's the point. The reliability of FG% is that it represents not only point production, but that it gives you some indication of a player's consistency from night to night. FG% is correlated with similarity in night-to-night point production.

FG% does not represent any kind of consistency. It's a measure of a player's overall field goal percentage. It indicates as much consistency as eFG% and TS%.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#27 » by montestewart » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:47 pm

Patterns wrote:
Malinhion wrote:No, that's the point. The reliability of FG% is that it represents not only point production, but that it gives you some indication of a player's consistency from night to night. FG% is correlated with similarity in night-to-night point production.

FG% does not represent any kind of consistency. It's a measure of a player's overall field goal percentage. It indicates as much consistency as eFG% and TS%.


If FG% indicates consistency, someone that shoots 13-16 and 3-16 in successive games has indicated greater consistency than someone that shoots 7-16 and 7-16 in successive games. I agree that FG% can be a useful measure (particularly when tracking rebounds and other after shot results), but points per possession and the other measures are being too casually dismissed.

The measures of Arenas’ poor shooting games might be relevant, but only if compared with something: compare his good shooting games with his bad shooting games, and measure the effect on game outcome, for example, or compare the deviations from his average to the deviations of other high scoring players.

Sometimes Arenas is a chucker, but so too are Kobe and Lebron, sometimes. If the Wizards improve greatly this year, that label won’t matter too much.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#28 » by Patterns » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:25 am

montestewart wrote:
Patterns wrote:
Malinhion wrote:No, that's the point. The reliability of FG% is that it represents not only point production, but that it gives you some indication of a player's consistency from night to night. FG% is correlated with similarity in night-to-night point production.

FG% does not represent any kind of consistency. It's a measure of a player's overall field goal percentage. It indicates as much consistency as eFG% and TS%.


If FG% indicates consistency
, someone that shoots 13-16 and 3-16 in successive games has indicated greater consistency than someone that shoots 7-16 and 7-16 in successive games. I agree that FG% can be a useful measure (particularly when tracking rebounds and other after shot results), but points per possession and the other measures are being too casually dismissed.

The measures of Arenas’ poor shooting games might be relevant, but only if compared with something: compare his good shooting games with his bad shooting games, and measure the effect on game outcome, for example, or compare the deviations from his average to the deviations of other high scoring players.

Sometimes Arenas is a chucker, but so too are Kobe and Lebron, sometimes. If the Wizards improve greatly this year, that label won’t matter too much.

FG% does NOT indicate consistency. A player can shoot 10/13 one night and then 4/15 the next night. His FG% would be 50% overall. Tell me, how does that measure consistency?

Once again, FG% indicates as much consistency as TS% and eFG%.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#29 » by RapsBulls4evr » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:41 am

dlts20 wrote:I havent been on here in awhile so I dont know if you guys have saw the 3 part installment on him on NBA.com The 1st two were good vids but the 3rd one is vicious. The kid is back and he looks better then ever. The crazy thing is his hops. I saw vids of Gil in HS and he would dunk with ease but on the Wiz he never dunked and it seemed like a struggle whenever he did dunk. Now he's dunking like he's D-Wade. Here is part 3 and you guys can see the other 2 on there if you want. http://www.nba.com/wizards/video/originals/

Season hasn't started yet, lol. :biggrin:
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#30 » by 20MexicanosIn1Van » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:34 am

montestewart wrote:
Sometimes Arenas is a chucker, but so too are Kobe and Lebron, sometimes. If the Wizards improve greatly this year, that label won’t matter too much.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#31 » by Mamba Venom » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:47 am

MVB

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Lakers are 22-3 in OT last 6 seasons:Kobe best OT closer!
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#32 » by doclinkin » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:34 am

tsherkin wrote:Patterns is wrong, here, at least to some extent.

FG% is a valuable measure for evaluating people in some ways. Given the volume of 3s he took, the "efficiency" of his shooting is relative; this is the Iverson argument, only with 3s AND FTAs instead of just FTAs. High-volume, low-raw FG% chuckery is still a problem, especially when the 3P% isn't spectacular.

Look at it this way; in 06-07, he had 32 games where he played 30+ minutes and shot under 40%. He had 21 games over 48%. He was a streaky guy; when he was on, he could shoot you out of a hole, but when he wasn't, he'd put you into one.

In those 32 games, he MISSED an average of 14.2 shots a game while taking an average of 20.4.

Regardless of whether he hit his threes or not (he shot 23.2% from downtown in those games on about 7.7 3PA/g), he was still missing left, right and center. Not all of those misses were rebounded by the Wizards.

When you're primarily a perimeter shooter, raw FG% matters. Arenas drives, and he draws fouls (and because he's played mostly from 04-05 forward, he's drawn fouls very well for a wing), but it would be a mistake to only look at eFG% and TS% to evaluate his efficiency.

BULK FG-missed still represent a problem.



Eh. Except you blithely skate over the issue of Free Throws.

Fact is Gilbert doesn't simply draw fouls well for a wing player, he draws fouls remarkably well for any player, whatever size. Gilbert consistently ranks in the top ten of all players in Free Throw attempts per 40 minutes (pace adjusted). Healthy or not.

This is a significant portion of his game, and is a method by which a player on offense can play defense as well by softening up opposing frontline Bigs for late game situations. Opposing Bigs get subbed out in late-game situations when they have been dinged with foul trouble. Opposing Wing scorers get switched onto easier match-ups on defense. Gilbert tends to riccochet off the big bodies in the lane, the hand-check issues are a small part of the equation, the clear path and 2.9 second tango under the cylinder are even more important.

Staring myopically at his raw FG% doesn't reflect on how rock-steady that FTA number is. Essentially Gilbert's three point shooting set up his higher percentage shot: the stand-still unguardable fifteen foot round the back three times flatfoot set shot-- that is: the free throw. There's a reason why the Wizards under Eddie Jordan were consistently ranking among the league-best in Free Throw Attempts per game. The system created mismatches on the perimeter and clear lanes to attack, specifically for a guy like Gilbert. The threat that he might catch hot from outside meant opponents were forced to guard him tight, as far out as 30 feet from the basket. The threat that he might drive forced opponents to sag off of proficient shooters Jamsion and Butler. Notice the 3pt percentage of Caron Butler taking a significant bounce after entering the Wiz system.

I showed you the stat before from the Free Darko collective's remarkable book (The Macrophenomenal Guide to Basketball), the chart illustrating Gilbert's "zone of no conscience", where his three point shooting percentage actually increased the further from the basket he was. Scouts quoted in Sports Illustrated said he was effectively the toughest player to guard in the NBA -- most disruptive overall to opponent defensive schemes -- since you had to pick him up so far out and stick him, and he was too quick to stick with out there.

Ask nate33 of the player comparisons board to drag out his player pairs regressions showing Gilbert's eFG% effect on his teammates. Hell -- ask DeShawn Stevenson who shot 19% in the playoffs after Gil first got injured, when he'd shot a raw 50% from the field playing next to Gil. Shoot, check 82games' +/- stats clearly showing that Gilbert has been more valuable to his team's offensive success than any other player on the squad. He shot alot because his squad needed him to do so. The offensive spacing was predicated on his particular skillset.

You can feel free to quibble and nitpick, but by sticking doggedly to that raw FG% stat you're only betraying your confirmation bias, not an astute grasp of statistical analysis. The Wizards under EJ were consistently among the leagues' top offenses, with Gilbert the +/- leader. That would tend to suggest something fairly obvious, axiomatic-- bluntly-- pretty basic to the non-stupid: Gilbert shooting a bunch doesn't hurt the team's offense, because scoring was never a problem.

Now you might be right if you had tried to make the point that low percentage raw FG% numbers forces frontcourt players to commit heavily to the offensive rebound, and long rebounds might seduce rearline players to try for second chance points -- all of which ruins court balance for transition defense. But you didn't even try to make that point so nope, you get no lollipop.

That said. If you take a look at Flip's track record with heavy usage point guards, they tend to get more efficient entering his system. Players like Chauncey, Steph, Sam Cassell put up career years in most categories of PG efficiency. And the defensive scheme tends to allow top third defense even squads with heavy doses of Wally Szerbiak and Fred Hoiberg.

I'm perfectly happy reading the squawking of nono-birds about Gilbert's chances of success. Especially given his propensity for using doubts to drive him. Go ahead, doubt the willpower and ability of the most obsessively driven PG in the league. BY all means, talk about how he's unable to defend, distribute, etc. Spread the common wisdom that he's unable to actually score. Health is the only question mark, that's up to divine powers to sort out, but if the cat is healthy --well, suffice to say I don't suspect their own backcourt scoring is gonna be the roadblock for the success of this year's Wiz.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#33 » by Hyral » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:48 am

My god, doclinkin, that was the best post i've seen on the general board in a long time.

Anyway, as someone who goes to school in DC i'm excited for Arenas' return to the court. Wizards should have the mentality that they can win every game and they will do just fine.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#34 » by INKtastic » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:55 am

doct3r dr3 wrote:
twenty23 wrote:
yungal07 wrote:most exciting player in the league....


No...


Somebody get this whippersnapper a highlight reel.

kthxbye.


you mean like these?

Image

Image

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I went back 2 years, that was about all I could find...
http://www.inktastic.com/ Custom T-Shirts and more
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#35 » by montestewart » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:47 pm

^^^ Great post doclinkin. It's the whole package: drawing fouls and converting, dangerous from deep, opening up space all over the floor to aloow other scorers to flourish.

Some characterize Arenas as a ball hogging chucker, but how then do the Wizards always seem to have two other players scoring at or near 20ppg? It may have been a different system/style, but most Wizards followers know that the efficiency of the Arenas-led offense has never really been a major issue.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#36 » by montestewart » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:54 pm

Patterns wrote:
montestewart wrote:
Patterns wrote:[FG% does not represent any kind of consistency. It's a measure of a player's overall field goal percentage. It indicates as much consistency as eFG% and TS%.


If FG% indicates consistency, someone that shoots 13-16 and 3-16 in successive games has indicated greater consistency than someone that shoots 7-16 and 7-16 in successive games.
I agree that FG% can be a useful measure (particularly when tracking rebounds and other after shot results), but points per possession and the other measures are being too casually dismissed.


FG% does NOT indicate consistency. A player can shoot 10/13 one night and then 4/15 the next night. His FG% would be 50% overall. Tell me, how does that measure consistency?

Once again, FG% indicates as much consistency as TS% and eFG%.

Sorry if that was unclear. The bolded was a rhetorical statement, and I was basically agreeing with you.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#37 » by hourockman » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:29 pm

Nuggets vs Wizards, 2010 Finals. Kenyon, Gilbert, and Antawn have decreed it.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#38 » by Gremz » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:03 pm

I wish Gilbert and the Wizards a healthy season.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#39 » by doclinkin » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:29 pm

hourockman wrote:Nuggets vs Wizards, 2010 Finals. Kenyon, Gilbert, and Antawn have decreed it.


That would be a great series. But no, Gilbert said that the team was a 19 win team and had no business talking about the postseason or saying anything until they proved it on court. Gilbert said he thought they're probably a little too small overall to contend against ultrabig teams like the Cavs, who keep swelling up like Barry Bonds melon. Maybe not the most politic thing to say, but I think most folks out here in internetland would agree with him that the Wiz would be a serious underdog in the betting line against most of the elite teams. Just facts.

'Tawn said (even unhealthy) they compete against anybody (in the regular season) so with everyone healthy he thinks they can contend with anybody, and at this point in his career that's the goal. Win it all. Not bad sentiments coming from your team captain. Contend, he said, not a guarantee or a prediction. Seems to me the right thing to do to aim high.

But yeah teh Nuggs vs teh Wizzers would be sweet action.
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Re: Agent Zero Is Back!!! 

Post#40 » by dlts20 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:00 pm

doclinkin wrote:
hourockman wrote:Nuggets vs Wizards, 2010 Finals. Kenyon, Gilbert, and Antawn have decreed it.


That would be a great series. But no, Gilbert said that the team was a 19 win team and had no business talking about the postseason or saying anything until they proved it on court. Gilbert said he thought they're probably a little too small overall to contend against ultrabig teams like the Cavs, who keep swelling up like Barry Bonds melon. Maybe not the most politic thing to say, but I think most folks out here in internetland would agree with him that the Wiz would be a serious underdog in the betting line against most of the elite teams. Just facts.

'Tawn said (even unhealthy) they compete against anybody (in the regular season) so with everyone healthy he thinks they can contend with anybody, and at this point in his career that's the goal. Win it all. Not bad sentiments coming from your team captain. Contend, he said, not a guarantee or a prediction. Seems to me the right thing to do to aim high.

But yeah teh Nuggs vs teh Wizzers would be sweet action.
Still, I actually dont listen to Gil when it comes to things like that. He says stuff then will change in the very next second. I dont beleive we have to make a trade to beat those teams. Gil dogs everyone all the time then he switches up. He talked down about DS and now he said that he should be our starter. He talked about our young guys not doing anything but now he says that they will be beast with him. Those teams are not truly better then us up front if you ask me. I love our frontcourt of Wood, AJ, Blatche, McGee, and Oberto, espicaly when you add Gil to them. He will make all those guys alot better and alot of our D struggles were due to EJ being a horrible coach

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