LV-Suns wrote:RunDogGun wrote:Well please describe those games where the engine ran better with Nash on the bench. I seem to remember the opposite. Further, follow that up with telling me that it ran better when Nash was on the bench, and Amare was on the floor, and I'll proudly buy you a Suns cookie.
Until then, Nash is our best player. How many other players went 50/40/90 for three years in a row?
Well, when Nash went down for 3 games at the end of February, we went 2-1. One win against the Lakers and Raptors. As soon as Nash returned from the injury, we went on a 6 game losing streak last year. Amare had a TS% of 65% in 08 and he is currently the league leader among active players for a single season. He beat the record that was held by Nash from the 07 season, well 65% also.
The same season, Amare had an efficiency rating of 27.8, better than anything Nash ever had.
RunDogGun wrote:As far as LB and Amare, I can see your point, and maybe I thought too highly of LB's efforts when Amare went down. Let's see: Feb 20th, the day after Amare went down, LB was put into the starting lineup against a young quick team OKC. He played 41 mins that game, and lets look at his stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 00PHO.htmlHe did fairly well, don't you think? 41 pts, 7 rbds, 7 asts, 6 stls, and only 1 TO. 16 for 21, 5-7 from three, and 4-4 from the line. I still feel that if LB hadn't have been injured and played while still injured, we could have won at least three more games despite Amare being out. I really don't see how that is assuming too much.
I am a huge fan of LB, but if we are counting LB to be the x-factor to win games, we are in trouble. We actually did decent when LB went down(5-3), expecting to go undefeated from that Suns team was asking quite a lot. Did we really have to rely on LB to beat the Kings?
Two games before Amare went down, on Feb 17th, the Suns played LAC.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290217021LB out scored, out rebounded, out assisted, out stole, a very small team. LAC had almost no bigmen, which Amare should have shredded. Well to his defense, he did make two stupid fouls within 13 seconds in the first quarter, which forced him to the bench. Later he causes an offensive foul to pick up his third near the end of the second quarter. So he had less time on the court, but it was his own fault.
Again I really don't see the huge leap of thinking we could have won three more games while having a
HEALTHY LB and an
injured Amare.
I honestly don't see how Amare didn't get his way in that game. He played a total of 20 mins and and put up 23/5/3 in a complete blowout. We never know what we are going to get out LB every night. Sometimes he will come out dominating while some nights he struggles to find any kind of rhythm to his game. Honestly, I doubt this team could have went undefeated(8-0) if LB was healthy with our current mentality.
I based my thoughts of Amare on his actions. He continues to act like a child in the interviews, and his play on the court. The difference between his ability and effort to achieve that ability are like that of a child. All flash and no dirt. I doubt I could find a player of his ability who sucked as bad as he does on defensive positioning and boxing out. To top it off, he goes to the media, and hypes himself up, only to show us nothing new. What ever happened to the, "I want to be like Ron Artest on defense' ? I am sorry, but I am done with people apologizing for Amare. If he wants max money, he has to man up! Play both ends of the court, the whole time he is in the game. I have never heard Nash say he wants to be known like Ron on D. I have seen guards boxout Amare better than he boxes out anyone. Watch defensive freethrows...Amare gets shoved under the basket everytime. Watch players beat Amare to the position to rebound and to the post. Nash is older and slower, Amare just isn't smart enough/ or doesn't care enough to get there.
I agree Amare is not exactly the smartest guy when dealing with the media. Nothing Amare says can be taken like grain and salt.
As strong as Amare is, his lower body is build like a guard. Amare simply is not strong enough to hold position amongst many bigs in the league and part of the reason, he is not smart enough.
Amare is a great assisted finisher, and a decent outside shooter, which are skills that don't take a bunch of brains to do. I guess when people start cheering him for getting a rebound like they do when he dunks, maybe he will care enough to learn how to do it.
If they don't take much skill to do, I don't see why more bigs turns to the same offensive scheme and produce the same efficient way. Everyone cheered and cried when Marion bought down double digit rebounds. I am going to pick the last season Amare and Marion played together, 2007. Even though Amare did not have the same volume on the stat sheet as Marion, he was as good or even better than Marion. Amare collected a total of 17% of our total rebounds that season while Marion got 15%. Marion managed to get a total of 1 less rebound than Amare while playing more than 400 mins that season.
Amare has a playoff avg of 25/10/2, 52% shooting. Amare is one of the better bigs in the league who puts up great numbers with impressive %'s.
But those great %s are because of Nash and where he delivers those passes, hence the comment "assisted finishers". Again, if you want to put the fate of this team in the hands of a gifted child, so be it. But with the game on the line, when you put the ball in Amare's hands, and he is to bring us to the promised land, he will charge over Kurt Thomas and foul out of the game. Or he will jump out of his seat like a little school girl and hop halfway down the court (but not in the game at the time) and get himself kicked out of the next game, while claiming (in the press conference) that he was reporting to the scorer's table. Or he will fail to notice that his man picks LB leaving a wide open Finley to nail a three to tie the game, while Amare stands next to Oberto watching an uncontested three. Holy crap, the KT thing and the Finley thing was the same darn game!!! When(if) he grows up, he could make a fine player, worthy of all the praise that his fans give him. But I'm a Suns' fan, not an Amare fan, and I have seen enough of his bull, and want to see him walk his talk. I have followed this team for almost thirty years now, and I haven't seen many guys with Amare's ability, but with almost no idea how to use it. Iso plays for Amare seem to end with him doing a spin move towards the basket. It hasn't been hard for aggressive guards to wait for that spin move, and steal the ball right out of his hands. Or the big guarding him, just stands their ground, and Amare charges right over them. I'm just not impressed anymore.
Amare's numbers are just as good as anyone who faces him. And the season he was out, it was Diaw and KT making those easy baskets set up by our true leader. Amare gives up just as many rebounds as he gets. I will agree that he has become better at shooting, which I did in my post. But a whole year of doing nothing but shooting with Phil Webber, and I think many professional athletes with the athleticism of Amare could improve at shooting. And while you post great numbers, your info does not show that Marion leaked out for fast break points often (which was our system) leaving Amare the only one back. Again please give me information that my eyes haven't witnessed to be misleading.
LAC only had Zach Randolf that game as their only big besides Jordan, who was stuck guarding Shaq and Zach was kicked out of the game for hitting Lou 11 mins in. Amare should have had a monster night, but he made stupid errors which forced him to the bench. LB is inconsistent, definitely, but you can't tell me he doesn't give it his all every game that he is healthy. And with that effort, you can't honestly tell me that we could not have won three more games with a healthy LB. When Amare went down, we called on LB to start, and he proved himself. When we put him back on the bench, he still did a good job. How many games has Amare come off the bench to score 30+ pts? The inconsistent play of LB goes hand and hand with his inconsistent role on the team.
I am so tired of the the body size story, and because of that lame story, I added the guard boxingout Amare. Size means squat to one who has great position. Please view this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH1LnAQp4cMIt is not a new concept. Amare has the ability to do this with ease. The problem is he either won't, or can't. I can't put the game in his hands, so why give him the money. I can boxout guys twice my size, it is just a matter of beating a man to the spot and gaining leverage. Most children turn their head when a shot goes up, and if you watch Amare, he does it almost everytime. Most men, find the nearest guy (hopefully the guy they are guarding) and put a body on them. Maybe Amare is afraid of getting injured, maybe he is just not smart enough to figure out simple basketball skills that don't relate to shooting, who knows? All I know is he wants a full paycheck for half the work, and while that might seem like the American way, it was not how I was raised. It wouldn't piss me off so bad if it wasn't for his lame comments to the press about him doing the contrary or if he didn't have the ability. Either do it already, or shut up about it.
The comments of Nash coming off an injury, and the Suns losing games because of this, is supposed to shock me? He is coming off an injury. Am I supposed to use the three games Amare played after knee surgery to show how bad Amare played, or screwed up our chemistry? Fact is we played better as a team and were better defensively the year Amare was out. Overall, the games played when Nash is out, does not bode well for the Suns. And you never showed that in those three games (only last year, because you couldn't go back the last few years which would refute your whole point), that Amare lead this team to victory. In fact it was LB, Hill, and Shaq who stepped up in Nash's absence not Amare, who didn't even play those games, so please give relevant information.
I really don't feel like talking about this anymore. If he can do what he says, I have no problem with Amare. But if he continues to act like a child (on and off the court) I will continue to rip him and call him a child. When he can lead this team with Nash on the bench, I will gladly eat crow. But again, I don't think I will have to pull out my Edger Allen Poe cookbook anytime soon.
Sorry that I was all over the place, but I thought I had answered your questions the first time, and I didn't want to leave stuff out.
Even Nash and Hill had an attitude last year which is saying something about the state of affairs in Phoenix's front office.
