Vernon calls Jays fans hypocrites

[Hoopstarr]

Michael Bradley, the amount of time it took Sabean to reject the offer doesn't necessarily mean he considered it that seriously. Remember, Sabean was haunted at the time by the Liriano/Nathan deals, his Zito signing flopping that year, giving Accardo to those same Jays for Hillenbrand. That's why he was asking for a pitcher along with Rios so he wouldn't get burned again. My read on it was that he was simply doing due diligence since they desperately needed offense but he never seriously considered it as much as he did with Cain. Also, Rios was due to become an FA soon while Lincecum is still in his arbitration years. Bottom line, both GMs made the smart move: JP for offering it and Sabean for rejecting it.

[Schad]

Good god, yes. Pay $20m of Wells' contract if necessary. I don't think I'm even exaggerating to say that this might be our one and only shot to dump him before 2013.

Do you really believe the Cubs are that stupid (or desperate)? I mean really...it's Vernon Wells we are talking about.

Do I really believe it? No. Do I desperately want to believe it? Words cannot express.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Who said anything about chemistry? I'm saying the guy is guaranteed to either miss 30+ games or get suspended, or both. And you're taking the "screw intangibles" thing to an equally absurd extreme as the Griffins of the world take it to the other extreme.

#1. Missing games tells me he's injury prone. It doesn't tell me anything about his character. If you want to make an argument that the Jays shouldn't acquire Bradley for that reason that's fine, but I hate when people make judgments about a player's character without really knowing anything about him.

#2. You still haven't answered my question. What's a "team cancer?" Did that malcontent Barry Bonds count as one? How bad of a teammate do you have to be to become a "team cancer?" Is there a stat that can tell me how bad a teammate the guy is, or are you just going by what you've read in the media?

#3. And yes, by suggesting that Milton Bradley is some kind of cancer, it means you are concerned about team chemistry. And that's funny...because this is baseball. Talent wins games...not happy little team players like David Eckstein.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Michael Bradley, the amount of time it took Sabean to reject the offer doesn't necessarily mean he considered it that seriously. Remember, Sabean was haunted at the time by the Liriano/Nathan deals, his Zito signing flopping that year, giving Accardo to those same Jays for Hillenbrand. That's why he was asking for a pitcher along with Rios so he wouldn't get burned again. My read on it was that he was simply doing due diligence since they desperately needed offense but he never seriously considered it as much as he did with Cain. Also, Rios was due to become an FA soon while Lincecum is still in his arbitration years. Bottom line, both GMs made the smart move: JP for offering it and Sabean for rejecting it.

The fact that he didn't reject the deal on the spot and waited a week to give a response would seem to indicate that he gave it some significant thought. If I'm remembering correctly, he asked all of the main members in the front office what they would do (and most were on the side of keeping Lincecum).

[Duffman100]

Vernon isn't calling the fans hypocrites, he's calling them fickle. And that's exactly what they are. The same people who boo him will be the ones cheering him if he ever turns it around.

Weird that fans would cheer a player who is succeeding and boo a player who is languishing. That's downright confusing.

Once again, this is EVERYWHERE. In every city, in every fan following. Jays fans aren't different. He'd be booed anywhere right now...and if he hit 300, he's be cheered for. That's just professional sports. If Vernon Wells doesn't like it...he can go work at the Gap.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Vernon isn't calling the fans hypocrites, he's calling them fickle. And that's exactly what they are. The same people who boo him will be the ones cheering him if he ever turns it around.

Weird that fans would cheer a player who is succeeding and boo a player who is languishing. That's downright confusing.

Once again, this is EVERYWHERE. In every city, in every fan following. Jays fans aren't different. He'd be booed anywhere right now...and if he hit 300, he's be cheered for. That's just professional sports. If Vernon Wells doesn't like it...he can go work at the Gap.

I didn't say it was unusual.

Sports fans, in general, are a fickle bunch.

[Hoopstarr]

#1. Missing games tells me he's injury prone. It doesn't tell me anything about his character. If you want to make an argument that the Jays shouldn't acquire Bradley for that reason that's fine, but I hate when people make judgments about a player's character without really knowing anything about him.

What? Milton Bradley's Trouble isn't just a board game, you know. He just got suspended by the Cubs, his 8th team, for publicly quitting on his team and you're telling me he doesn't have character issues? His nickname is "Meltdown"! One time he even combined an injury and a meltdown in the same incident when he got injured (and missed games) while losing his head with an ump. You can't just chalk up all those missed games to injuries alone. There had to be some "late scratches" among them, like the day he got suspended when he took himself out of the lineup because of knee pain.

#2. You still haven't answered my question. What's a "team cancer?" Did that malcontent Barry Bonds count as one? How bad of a teammate do you have to be to become a "team cancer?" Is there a stat that can tell me how bad a teammate the guy is, or are you just going by what you've read in the media?

The fact that you're asking for a stat kinda exposes you here--you want to quantify intangibles, which are literally unquantifiable. However, countless studies have shown that work performance suffers with poor work environment, not liking your boss, conflict with co-workers, or any kind of unwanted distraction. Do you really think athletes are any different? If anything, they're more prone to it. Go tell the 2004 Lakers, the 1994 Bulls, the Isiah Thomas Pacers, the 2000 Blazers that they didn't have chemistry issues . You think they were all just talented and got unlucky for multiple years? Put it another way, if you have two teams of equal talent and neutral luck, which one will win, the one with a cohesive team or the one with malcontents?

#3. And yes, by suggesting that Milton Bradley is some kind of cancer, it means you are concerned about team chemistry. And that's funny...because this is baseball. Talent wins games...not happy little team players like David Eckstein.

You know me from other Jays sites so you know how I think intangibles are mostly BS, but you're taking an extreme position on it, making it just as absurd as the points made at the other extreme. I mean, do you think leadership is BS too then?

Anyway, Bradley would miss games with injury, non-injuries, or both, and we might not even have a spot in the OF for him next year, so that's why I said just cut him loose if the trade somehow goes down.

[Mustard_Tiger]

What? Milton Bradley's Trouble isn't just a board game, you know. He just got suspended by the Cubs, his 8th team, for publicly quitting on his team and you're telling me he doesn't have character issues? His nickname is "Meltdown"!

He got suspended for being honest about a fanbase that continually hounded him for slightly underachieving (he still ranks 3rd on their team in OPS). Subsequently, the Cubs' GM decided to make him the scapegoat for their failure of a season. Big surprise there.

One time he even combined an injury and a meltdown in the same incident when he got injured (and missed games) while losing his head with an ump.

That umpire baited him with racist comments and was later suspended. But yeah, totally his fault.

You can't just chalk up all those missed games to injuries alone. There had to be some "late scratches" among them, like the day he got suspended when he took himself out of the lineup because of knee pain.

See...this is what I don't get, and it's exactly the kind of thinking that people should try to avoid. Who are you to make a judgment about why this guy sometimes pulls himself out of games? How do you know he isn't doing it simply because he doesn't feel healthy enough to help the team? You don't have any inner knowledge of what goes on in Milton Bradley's mind. Stop pretending that you do.

The fact that you're asking for a stat kinda exposes you here--you want to quantify intangibles, which are literally unquantifiable.

And the fact that you still haven't been able to give me a definition of what exactly a team cancer is proves my point.

However, countless studies have shown that work performance suffers with poor work environment, not liking your boss, conflict with co-workers, or any kind of unwanted distraction. Do you really think athletes are any different? If anything, they're more prone to it.

This is baseball, dude. Citing intangibles as a reason not to make a move is complete BS. Scott Rolen, a complete malcontent or "team cancer" as you might say, reluctantly played in Toronto for almost 2 years, and the team was better for it. There are countless examples of guys like this who utilize their talent to help their teams without being great teammates (Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens being the main ones). There's absolutely no reason that Milton Bradley couldn't have the same effect in Toronto.

You think they were all just talented and got unlucky for multiple years? Put it another way, if you have two teams of equal talent and neutral luck, which one will win, the one with a cohesive team or the one with malcontents?

This is where basketball is much different than baseball. You need a cohesive team that works well together to consistently win games in that sport. That doesn't, however, mean that you need a bunch of good "teammates." You just need a bunch of guys working towards the same goal...a championship. That's where those basketball teams you named failed....all of those players didn't have that goal.

You know me from other Jays sites so you know how I think intangibles are mostly BS, but you're taking an extreme position on it, making it just as absurd as the points made at the other extreme. I mean, do you think leadership is BS too then?

I'm not taking an extreme position on it. I'm fully aware of how much character matters in sports and I'm a major advocate for the importance of mental toughness (for example, I hate Chris Bosh as a player because he lacks it). I'm just saying that #1. Intangibles don't really matter in the largely individual sport that is baseball and #2. You can't judge Milton Bradley's intangibles based on the things you hear and read in the media. I suspect that if you are able to find a manager that can motivate Milton Bradley in the right way, he could be a contributor on a good team.

Anyway, Bradley would miss games with injury, non-injuries, or both, and we might not even have a spot in the OF for him next year, so that's why I said just cut him loose if the trade somehow goes down.

Bradley would be a cheap .800+ OPS bat that can hit both ways. He's exactly the kind of player the Jays should be looking for next year, and I would have absolutely no problem keeping him on the team if a deal was ever made.

[zilby]

i definitely agree with mustard_tiger (you got my respect this time dude ) except for one thing. a team does need good chemistry and good talent to succeed.

as for the Wells/Bradley deal, i would be reading this website right now if i were JP.

in MLB 2K8, i pulled a Wells for Soriano deal and it payed off for me 0___0 possibilities

[Hoopstarr]

We're getting caught up in semantics here. I think of character in sports as the ability to be a professional. Rolen is a pro on the field but a malcontent off it who has had bitter exits from each of his teams. Bonds is simply a douchebag with the media. Neither of these guys have meltdowns on and off the field like Bradley. So then a cancer is that rare guy who makes an entire career out of it. He says and does things that jeopardize his career. Bradley has been on 8 teams and plays on one year contracts for good reason, and it's not because the media types don't like him.

Your point about a good manager being able to motivate Bradley goes with what I'm saying. The Pistons had players and coaches who were able to handle Rasheed Wallace's personality. In other words, leadership, an intangible, was able to keep Wallace from being a detriment to his team. Here's an example of that with Bradley: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 19QTKM.DTL

[Mustard_Tiger]

So then a cancer is that rare guy who makes an entire career out of it. He says and does things that jeopardize his career. Bradley has been on 8 teams and plays on one year contracts for good reason, and it's not because the media types don't like him.

Unless you know something about him that I don't, one would seemingly be able to attribute his one-year contracts (until the Cubs gave him 30M) to his injury issues/inconsistencies.