Knicks Core vs. Nets Core

[TKF]

Look at Nate in 11 games as as starter -- granted he didn't always run the point and was used more as a SG, esp. when we had a depleted roster. I then want you to look at Devin Harris in 69 games (all as starter) last year.

People can have preferences on a player but I don't get the Hate on Nate, while not understanding why I think Devin Harris is being overrated. If people would say Devin is really more of a 6th man, then I could agree and there would be no need to debate. But if people are saying Harris is "top 10 PG", well let's look at the numbers (very small sample size) from last year ONLY when Nate started.

NATE ROBINSON
Minutes 38.00
FGA 17.10
FG% 44.15%
3FGA 5.36
3FG% 28.81%
FTA 5.36
FT% 81.36%
Reb 5.55
Assts 5.00
TO 2.45
Stls 1.27
Blk 0.18
PF 2.91
Pts 21.00

DEVIN HARRIS
Minutes 36.00
FGA 15.10
FG% 43.80%
3FGA 3.20
3FG% 29.10%
FTA 8.80
FT% 82.00%
Reb 3.40
Assts 6.90
TO 3.10
Stls 1.70
Blk 0.20
PF 2.40
Pts 21.30


These players are much closer than people want to admit...!

I have been reading a lot of these pages, but stutter, you are making some great points, and in the end, i agree, they are much closer than people want to admit. I just hate to hear people say harris is better "by far", or "easily".. that is not the truth, but again, we do have a lot of knicks fans that just love overrating the opposition. For arguments sake, I would love to have devin harris on the knicks and just watch how much the opinion of him changes....

[TKF]

Between that and Lopez is already better than Lee I laughed. Now Lopez is better than Lee at playing a more important position, but that's about it, Lee is a much better PF than Lopez a C, he's a better shooter, rebounder, passer and finisher. I guess if you're talking about who's a better center Lopez wins because he can defend the position but that doesn't make him a better player.

Again I like twill a lot and would've loved to have seen him on the knicks but he has yet to play a single NBA game, just like Jordan Hill and Toney Douglas.

for me, that sums it up pretty well there... If lopez can accomplish close to what lee has, statistically that is, then we can start talking about a comparison here, but as you said, lee is just better at his position than lopez is at his... right now at least....

[StutterStep]

I have been reading a lot of these pages, but stutter, you are making some great points, and in the end, i agree, they are much closer than people want to admit. I just hate to hear people say harris is better "by far", or "easily".. that is not the truth, but again, we do have a lot of knicks fans that just love overrating the opposition. For arguments sake, I would love to have devin harris on the knicks and just watch how much the opinion of him changes....

Thanks, man! I don't think he could run this offense..but that's a whole other story.

Not sure if you remember a game vs GSW when Isiah was running the show - the year Eddy looked good being forcefed. They were blowing us out of the water until Isiah went small with Steph, JC and Nate playing basically like GSW. We caught up but I think we eventually lost. Nate got busy in that game, much like he did last year vs Portland and LAC.

He's one of those players who is always going to be restrained by his coaches and teammates because of his personality, etc...but imagine making him accountable as a starter (PG) in an uptempo system. That's really my argument when it comes to Devin Harris vs Nate in this instance. Put Nate on a team and tell him that he's the primary scorer, distributor, etc...he could fill all the roles, esp. with young ones like Courtney Lee, TWill and CDR on the wings --- bananas!

[TheBluest]

Look at Nate in 11 games as as starter -- granted he didn't always run the point and was used more as a SG, esp. when we had a depleted roster. I then want you to look at Devin Harris in 69 games (all as starter) last year.

People can have preferences on a player but I don't get the Hate on Nate, while not understanding why I think Devin Harris is being overrated. If people would say Devin is really more of a 6th man, then I could agree and there would be no need to debate. But if people are saying Harris is "top 10 PG", well let's look at the numbers (very small sample size) from last year ONLY when Nate started.

NATE ROBINSON
Minutes 38.00
FGA 17.10
FG% 44.15%
3FGA 5.36
3FG% 28.81%
FTA 5.36
FT% 81.36%
Reb 5.55
Assts 5.00
TO 2.45
Stls 1.27
Blk 0.18
PF 2.91
Pts 21.00

DEVIN HARRIS
Minutes 36.00
FGA 15.10
FG% 43.80%
3FGA 3.20
3FG% 29.10%
FTA 8.80
FT% 82.00%
Reb 3.40
Assts 6.90
TO 3.10
Stls 1.70
Blk 0.20
PF 2.40
Pts 21.30


These players are much closer than people want to admit...!

I have been reading a lot of these pages, but stutter, you are making some great points, and in the end, i agree, they are much closer than people want to admit. I just hate to hear people say harris is better "by far", or "easily".. that is not the truth, but again, we do have a lot of knicks fans that just love overrating the opposition. For arguments sake, I would love to have devin harris on the knicks and just watch how much the opinion of him changes....

He'd be one of the more likable players. I'm not disputing if offensively they are on par with each other. What I don't get is the reasons for hating Harris apply to Nate and probably even to a greater degree. Nate is clearly not a point guard any sane Knick fan will admit this. I even admitted Harris needs to be a little less shot happy and distribute but as far as running a team give me him over Nate all day. Plus Harris isn't some loose cannon out on the floor. You can' say you don't like Harris because you don't like the way he runs a team and then co-sign Nate as a point guard for ours....LOL this is what ruins Stutter's argument. Statistically yes Nate is no too shabby but even with stats shown as we can see when Nate started and averaged more minutes than Harris and shot more than Harris HE DISTRIBUTED LESS THAN HARRIS

[NyKnicks1714]

He'd be one of the more likable players. I'm not disputing if offensively they are on par with each other. What I don't get is the reasons for hating Harris apply to Nate and probably even to a greater degree. Nate is clearly not a point guard any sane Knick fan will admit this. I even admitted Harris needs to be a little less shot happy and distribute but as far as running a team give me him over Nate all day. Plus Harris isn't some loose cannon out on the floor. You can' say you don't like Harris because you don't like the way he runs a team and then co-sign Nate as a point guard for ours....LOL this is what ruins Stutter's argument. Statistically yes Nate is no too shabby but even with stats shown as we can see when Nate started and averaged more minutes than Harris and shot more than Harris HE DISTRIBUTED LESS THAN HARRIS

This post is dead on. And you didn't even mention defense and maturity. 2 HUGE things that people are conveniently forgetting in comparing Nate to Harris.

[StutterStep]

He'd be one of the more likable players. I'm not disputing if offensively they are on par with each other. What I don't get is the reasons for hating Harris apply to Nate and probably even to a greater degree. Nate is clearly not a point guard any sane Knick fan will admit this. I even admitted Harris needs to be a little less shot happy and distribute but as far as running a team give me him over Nate all day. Plus Harris isn't some loose cannon out on the floor. You can' say you don't like Harris because you don't like the way he runs a team and then co-sign Nate as a point guard for ours....LOL this is what ruins Stutter's argument. Statistically yes Nate is no too shabby but even with stats shown as we can see when Nate started and averaged more minutes than Harris and shot more than Harris HE DISTRIBUTED LESS THAN HARRIS

Well, I can because when Nate's given the look to run it (3 specific games last year), he went:

@ LAC: 33/15/9
@ GSW: 30/3/6
@POR: 19/4/4

Keep in mind the Assists numbers are down on the last 2 games because Duhon played while injured but Nate was the focal point. Those were the 3 losses right after our "Dream Week" and right before the All-Star game.

@LAC, Free Candy hung on the rim.
@GSW, we came out flat and got demolished because we embarrassed them earlier at home.
@Portland, Jared Jeffries poor defense and MikeD not communicating game situation to the team.

My point is this I have seen Devin Harris run a team in Dallas with tons of talent around him, and he was a major afterthought when he wasn't the focal point. In fact, his getting demolished by Baron and Monta during the playoffs led to the Kidd trade, etc...Now in NJ, he is given a team and though we're not expecting him to be JKidd, look at the FGA and Assists numbers with the same roster for the remainder of the year and following season.

Nate has NEVER been given that chance, partly because of a crowded roster (Steph and JC) and favoritism (Duhon)...

[TheBluest]

He'd be one of the more likable players. I'm not disputing if offensively they are on par with each other. What I don't get is the reasons for hating Harris apply to Nate and probably even to a greater degree. Nate is clearly not a point guard any sane Knick fan will admit this. I even admitted Harris needs to be a little less shot happy and distribute but as far as running a team give me him over Nate all day. Plus Harris isn't some loose cannon out on the floor. You can' say you don't like Harris because you don't like the way he runs a team and then co-sign Nate as a point guard for ours....LOL this is what ruins Stutter's argument. Statistically yes Nate is no too shabby but even with stats shown as we can see when Nate started and averaged more minutes than Harris and shot more than Harris HE DISTRIBUTED LESS THAN HARRIS

This post is dead on. And you didn't even mention defense and maturity. 2 HUGE things that people are conveniently forgetting in comparing Nate to Harris.

True probably tilts more in Harris direction if you look at full body of work and we know they don't have the same trade value....LOL

Now wanting to see Nate as a full time point guard on any team is eye blood vessel popping but rolling with this desire we know for a fact that if a team takes the Pick and Roll away where is Nate's distribution going to come from because his over dribbling with be the death of him. His teammates will not get better. But let's take another comparison Duhon averaged more assist than Harris and shot better than him looking at the %.. FG%(2pt) and FG%(3pt) but who would argue thinking Duhon is on Par with Harris....LOL! Put Harris in our offense where possessions come plentiful and tell me he wouldn't be a better distributor. And if you say he wouldn't be then I got a comeback for that and trust me you don't want to answer differently.

[StutterStep]

Statistically yes Nate is no too shabby but even with stats shown as we can see when Nate started and averaged more minutes than Harris and shot more than Harris HE DISTRIBUTED LESS THAN HARRIS

Actually I bolded FGA and FTA to show that they were attempting shots at the same clip, even with Nate playing more minutes. Can we agree that Harris was getting fouled going to the rim to attempt a shot (on most of his FTAs)?

For every 2FTA, that could be considered ONE shot (or to be fair 75%)...that would show their total FGAs are closer but whereas Nate is taking too many 3pters, Harris is getting a lot of blown whistles. Fair?

[TKF]

I have been reading a lot of these pages, but stutter, you are making some great points, and in the end, i agree, they are much closer than people want to admit. I just hate to hear people say harris is better "by far", or "easily".. that is not the truth, but again, we do have a lot of knicks fans that just love overrating the opposition. For arguments sake, I would love to have devin harris on the knicks and just watch how much the opinion of him changes....

Thanks, man! I don't think he could run this offense..but that's a whole other story.

Not sure if you remember a game vs GSW when Isiah was running the show - the year Eddy looked good being forcefed. They were blowing us out of the water until Isiah went small with Steph, JC and Nate playing basically like GSW. We caught up but I think we eventually lost. Nate got busy in that game, much like he did last year vs Portland and LAC.

He's one of those players who is always going to be restrained by his coaches and teammates because of his personality, etc...but imagine making him accountable as a starter (PG) in an uptempo system. That's really my argument when it comes to Devin Harris vs Nate in this instance. Put Nate on a team and tell him that he's the primary scorer, distributor, etc...he could fill all the roles, esp. with young ones like Courtney Lee, TWill and CDR on the wings --- bananas!

I think back to the games nate had on the road vs the blazers and clippers. I mean teams with some good backcourts and nate just shredded them.. vs portland that year, he had 45/6/6.. I mean lets be real, every coach in NY has tried to harness nate, but if he were given the keys like some of these PG's around the league, I can't promise you wins, but I am sure his stats would be sick. Last year he averaged 17ppg.. I mean that is by no means, stats of a slouch...

Devin harris is a good player in that he is quick, defends, has size and can score, but like nate , he also has his flaws, and I think, some of the same flaws that has kept nate as a 6th man, and what may down the line on a team that wins, may make harris a 6th man.. ala jason terry.. and really that is not a bad thing at all...

[StutterStep]

True probably tilts more in Harris direction if you look at full body of work and we know they don't have the same trade value....LOL

Now wanting to see Nate as a full time point guard on any team is eye blood vessel popping but rolling with this desire we know for a fact that if a team takes the Pick and Roll away where is Nate's distribution going to come from because his over dribbling with be the death of him. His teammates will not get better. But let's take another comparison Duhon averaged more assist than Harris and shot better than him looking at the %.. FG%(2pt) and FG%(3pt) but who would argue thinking Duhon is on Par with Harris....LOL! Put Harris in our offense where possessions come plentiful and tell me he wouldn't be a better distributor. And if you say he wouldn't be then I got a comeback for that and trust me you don't want to answer differently.

Man, this is not figure skating where the judges award the points. The point I was making by bringing Duhon was to shoot down any thought that Harris is in NJ playing PG (not your argument, someone else that had to be shot down). Fact still remains that Duhon is shooting a better clip, right. So if he were to shoot more, would not the % hold up and scoring be in that range.

Duhon's assists are as ir(relevant) as Harris's if that's the argument you're making is: Duhon gets his off a P/R, while Harris is getting his to mainly VC last year. Not sure if that's what you are arguing.

Nate is not getting his assists off P/R because he cannot effectively run the Roll portion because of his height. The offense would be more of a vertical and slashing attack with more penetration-dishing off to Lee -- as we have seen when Nate does run the offense. The problem you are having with Nate is that you are seeing him come in (last season) as the SG or 6th man, and clearly thinking his approach would be the same.

I am telling you it would not be...that's what you are not taking into account. Harris is being told to play PG and is being shot happy. Nate is being told to play SG and 6th man like Barbosa, so being shot happy is justified.

Good debate though / get ready for a long season / still not sure if I'm getting LP though.

[TKF]

He'd be one of the more likable players. I'm not disputing if offensively they are on par with each other. What I don't get is the reasons for hating Harris apply to Nate and probably even to a greater degree. Nate is clearly not a point guard any sane Knick fan will admit this. I even admitted Harris needs to be a little less shot happy and distribute but as far as running a team give me him over Nate all day. Plus Harris isn't some loose cannon out on the floor. You can' say you don't like Harris because you don't like the way he runs a team and then co-sign Nate as a point guard for ours....LOL this is what ruins Stutter's argument. Statistically yes Nate is no too shabby but even with stats shown as we can see when Nate started and averaged more minutes than Harris and shot more than Harris HE DISTRIBUTED LESS THAN HARRIS

Well, I can because when Nate's given the look to run it (3 specific games last year), he went:

@ LAC: 33/15/9
@ GSW: 30/3/6
@POR: 19/4/4
Keep in mind the Assists numbers are down on the last 2 games because Duhon played while injured but Nate was the focal point. Those were the 3 losses right after our "Dream Week" and right before the All-Star game.

@LAC, Free Candy hung on the rim.
@GSW, we came out flat and got demolished because we embarrassed them earlier at home.
@Portland, Jared Jeffries poor defense and MikeD not communicating game situation to the team.

My point is this I have seen Devin Harris run a team in Dallas with tons of talent around him, and he was a major afterthought when he wasn't the focal point. In fact, his getting demolished by Baron and Monta during the playoffs led to the Kidd trade, etc...Now in NJ, he is given a team and though we're not expecting him to be JKidd, look at the FGA and Assists numbers with the same roster for the remainder of the year and following season.

Nate has NEVER been given that chance, partly because of a crowded roster (Steph and JC) and favoritism (Duhon)...

the year before that at portland he went for 45/6/6

[StutterStep]

and I think, some of the same flaws that has kept nate as a 6th man, and what may down the line on a team that wins, may make harris a 6th man.. ala jason terry.. and really that is not a bad thing at all...

[/THREAD]

That is my point. TheBluest can you agree to that?

[TheBluest]

He'd be one of the more likable players. I'm not disputing if offensively they are on par with each other. What I don't get is the reasons for hating Harris apply to Nate and probably even to a greater degree. Nate is clearly not a point guard any sane Knick fan will admit this. I even admitted Harris needs to be a little less shot happy and distribute but as far as running a team give me him over Nate all day. Plus Harris isn't some loose cannon out on the floor. You can' say you don't like Harris because you don't like the way he runs a team and then co-sign Nate as a point guard for ours....LOL this is what ruins Stutter's argument. Statistically yes Nate is no too shabby but even with stats shown as we can see when Nate started and averaged more minutes than Harris and shot more than Harris HE DISTRIBUTED LESS THAN HARRIS

Well, I can because when Nate's given the look to run it (3 specific games last year), he went:

@ LAC: 33/15/9
@ GSW: 30/3/6
@POR: 19/4/4

Keep in mind the Assists numbers are down on the last 2 games because Duhon played while injured but Nate was the focal point. Those were the 3 losses right after our "Dream Week" and right before the All-Star game.

@LAC, Free Candy hung on the rim.
@GSW, we came out flat and got demolished because we embarrassed them earlier at home.
@Portland, Jared Jeffries poor defense and MikeD not communicating game situation to the team.

My point is this I have seen Devin Harris run a team in Dallas with tons of talent around him, and he was a major afterthought when he wasn't the focal point. In fact, his getting demolished by Baron and Monta during the playoffs led to the Kidd trade, etc...Now in NJ, he is given a team and though we're not expecting him to be JKidd, look at the FGA and Assists numbers with the same roster for the remainder of the year and following season.

Nate has NEVER been given that chance, partly because of a crowded roster (Steph and JC) and favoritism (Duhon)...

You rather hang Devin for losing a series against a team who was simply a Buzzsaw that yr? Yet not acknowledge he was also the reason they had the best record in the NBA that yr? The following yr when after 39gms before he was traded they were 27-12. Meanwhile they make the trade and Kidd get's his Arse handed to him by Chris Paul during that season's playoffs. So you want Harris to be judged in the Playoffs not during the regular season when that was his first yr as a full time starter and you want to use a 3gm sample to stick for Nate in which he played 2 awful teams. This is so ridiculous seriously.

[TheBluest]

and I think, some of the same flaws that has kept nate as a 6th man, and what may down the line on a team that wins, may make harris a 6th man.. ala jason terry.. and really that is not a bad thing at all...

[/THREAD]

That is my point. TheBluest can you agree to that?

Devin will never be a 6th Man until his age dictates he should be. If anything he might get moved to play the 2 but he is a sure fire starter. END OF DISCUSSION

[StutterStep]

You rather hang Devin for losing a series against a team who was simply a Buzzsaw that yr? Yet not acknowledge he was also the reason they had the best record in the NBA that yr? The following yr when after 39gms before he was traded they were 27-12. Meanwhile they make the trade and Kidd get's his Arse handed to him by Chris Paul during that season's playoffs. So you want Harris to be judged in the Playoffs not during the regular season when that was his first yr as a full time starter and you want to use a 3gm sample to stick for Nate in which he played 2 awful teams. This is so ridiculous seriously.

No, I am pointing out that those two guards demolished them, while SJax/Harrington took apart Dirk...but we're talking GSW and Dallas. Look at that matchup throughout the year. Dallas has won 50+ games since 2000 and peaked with 67 and got knocked out in the first round by an 8th seed. Next season, Devin Harris traded. The lone major trade they've made to the core. Do I even have to ask what the owner and front office thought...

Kidd was an awful fit in Dallas and I felt that before the trade, etc...so I'm not sure the point.

[StutterStep]

Devin will never be a 6th Man until his age dictates he should be. If anything he might get moved to play the 2 but he is a sure fire starter. END OF DISCUSSION

Moved to SG?

[cgf]

Between that and Lopez is already better than Lee I laughed. Now Lopez is better than Lee at playing a more important position, but that's about it, Lee is a much better PF than Lopez a C, he's a better shooter, rebounder, passer and finisher. I guess if you're talking about who's a better center Lopez wins because he can defend the position but that doesn't make him a better player.

Again I like twill a lot and would've loved to have seen him on the knicks but he has yet to play a single NBA game, just like Jordan Hill and Toney Douglas.

The argument could be made that there are far more good/great PF's than their are C's. If thats the case the respective value of a player at each position needs to be weighted accordingly. I would think that Lopez would have more value on the open market than Lee - just by virtue of their positions.

Oh I don't disagree with that, but to me when I hear the words better I'm thinking more talent or proficient at their given position, and in that sense Lee is clearly the better player since he has more skills that are better. The only thing Lopez is better at is being bigger which when talking about players who aren't under-sized for their position isn't very important.

[wwtsm]

Knicks

Between that and Lopez is already better than Lee I laughed. Now Lopez is better than Lee at playing a more important position, but that's about it, Lee is a much better PF than Lopez a C, he's a better shooter, rebounder, passer and finisher. I guess if you're talking about who's a better center Lopez wins because he can defend the position but that doesn't make him a better player.

Again I like twill a lot and would've loved to have seen him on the knicks but he has yet to play a single NBA game, just like Jordan Hill and Toney Douglas.

People like you give this board a terrible name. Do you think there's a team in the league who would even think about trading Lopez for Lee? OK, Lee is a better shooter than Lopez. Is he a good shooter? Not really. Devin Harris is a top 5 PG in the league and we have no one who comes anywhere near his trade value. Is David Lee really that much better than Troy Murphy? Not really. Compare the stats.

[j4remi]

People like you give this board a terrible name. Do you think there's a team in the league who would even think about trading Lopez for Lee? OK, Lee is a better shooter than Lopez. Is he a good shooter? Not really. Devin Harris is a top 5 PG in the league and we have no one who comes anywhere near his trade value. Is David Lee really that much better than Troy Murphy? Not really. Compare the stats.

Green font right?

[K_ick_God]

it is clearly the Knicks if you are able to include Lee and Nate in this. It is still the Knicks if you only include one of them too. I am actually surprised. We have seen Lopez a bunch this pre-season and I don't see ANY improvement from last year. I wonder if he is a player like Bogut who came into the league as a polished prospect who had already reached his potential. I don't like Devon Harris, and I don't see how a ball-dominant average shooting "pg" can work with Lebron.

I don't worry about the Nets. They are the Nets for a reason. I don't worry about Miami either. They have Wade, but Beasley has proved himself to be a SF, and the rest is weak. I worry about Lebron staying with Cleveland, and us having to compete with Chicago for FAs like Bosh, Amare, and Dirk.

I don't know how you can take yourself seriously after writing something like this. Harris is a ball dominant point guard? Nate is ball dominant, is 5'9 and can't play point guard. The only advantage Lee has over Lopez is a few rebounds a game, and Lopez is already far better than him. CDR, T-Will and Lee are all legit, and we don't know if any one of our guys besides Chandler is gonna pan out. Cmon man.

Difference is, Nate is a 6th man on the Knicks. Harris is the main cog on the Nets and therefore he's the reason that all these people say that the Nets' core is so great. But he's pretty badly overrated. I won't say severely overrated because he gets his numbers and plays D, but he's somewhere between moderately to highly overrated. And worst of all, he's a point who doesn't really run the show. That's a significant drawback. Nate is not the Knicks' starting point guard.

I think Rutgers' post is pretty insightful actually. His statement about Lopez coming into the league as a polished player who does not have a lot of room for growth is one that I endorse. I think that's going to be right. Will Lopez improve? Yes. But I don't think he's got a very high ceiling. I think Lopez' ratio of quality to potential is about as close as it could be for any 2nd year player. Lee has improved dramatically since a rookie. Let's see how much Lopez improves in his second, third and fourth seasons. I would not say Lopez is "far better" than Lee. Just to use stats as a baseline analysis, how can you say that a big who goes for 13 and 8 is "far better" than a big who goes for 16 and 11?

Also, you make a statement which is even harder to figure: You call CDR and T-Will "legit" and then say that the only Knick who we know will pan out is Chandler. So CDR and T-Will are more "legit" than Gallinari? What reason do you have to say that exactly?

Sounds like you've got the usual garden-variety anti-Knick analysis. All the prospects on other teams are great, all of the prospects on the Knicks are destined for failure. Players with good numbers on the Knicks should be disregarded, players with decent numbers on other teams are much better than their numbers. The typical anti-Knick bias.