Knicks Core vs. Nets Core

[TKF]

He averaged 30mi/gm as a starter sorry he gets credit for what he did there during that yr and a half. He should have been a third option it was his first yr as a starter. Kidd is currently a 3rd-5th option. When Nash was there he was a 3rd option behind Dirk and Finley. If Harris was a higher option he would have then been pegged as he is now, an overrated flailing chucker....LOL!

Will O.J. Mayo lead his team to be a winning team as a lead point or 2 guard?

Will Kevin Durant lead his team to be a winning team ditto?

Even if Harris were to do it then the argument is he's Gilbert Arenas and still overrated?

If the Bulls miss the playoffs this yr which they very well could, would this make Derrick Rose overrated?

you are reaching.. why bring up kidd and nash? both guys have proven, year in and year out that as the primary guard/player on their teams, they win. Kid with the suns and nets? nash with the mavs and suns? what is your point here?

Harris starting meant nothing, he was a caretaker for dirk and terry (off the bench). He was not asked to carry anything. Just don't mess things up.. nash and kid are given the keys to the Porsche and they have delivered. So far, as the "man" harris has led the nets nowhere, and until that changes, his game will be looked upon pretty much the way many people look at guys like nate? you keep trying to seperate the two and using smoke and mirrors to prove your argument.. harris was not the go to guy in Dallas, he is now in NJ, and so far, he comes off as a shoot happy PG that is not getting his team involved and the end result is a team that sucks!!

Will O.J. Mayo lead his team to be a winning team as a lead point or 2 guard?

Will Kevin Durant lead his team to be a winning team ditto?

who knows and right now who cares, that is not what this discussion is about...

Even if Harris were to do it then the argument is he's Gilbert Arenas and still overrated?

Honestly his game is similar to that of arenas, which is why i am not high on guards like that... What has arenas done in washington? really, what have the wizards done?

If the Bulls miss the playoffs this yr which they very well could, would this make Derrick Rose overrated?

if the bulls miss the playoffs, it probably would be with a winning record, but rose led his team to the playoffs as a rookie last year and performed like a stud. No one will look down on rose, and his play has led to team success... why even go there, Rose is a better PG than harris, and I won't even bother arguing that one.... And I think rose is a better leader...

[dk7th]

the better teams have more starters with skills corresponding to their respective positions than lesser teams. starters should have skills that one associates with the position, and the two most important positions are point guard and center. if the starting point guard is not capable of orchestrating then the team will not achieve because cohesiveness depends on orchestration. that's why both robinson and harris are not really starter types-- neither is particularly good at orchestrating. why put chris duhon in as a starter if that is not the case. both harris and robinson are by far the better athletes.

but basketball is a game of skill too and if you don't have the skills for the position then over time you must be regarded as "an energy guy off the bench."

by the same reasoning lopez is more valuable to a team's core success than david lee. the former has skills that are well-honed while the latter as has been mentioned is more an "energy guy" except he is on a team that is so mediocre that he has to be a starter. has david lee improved? yes, happily, and i am thinking of his ability to pass and his ability to finish. even his little jump shot is coming along a little bit. is he more athletic than lopez? maybe by just a little. but lopez could be a starter on any title-contending team because of his skills while david lee would be better suited to being a 6th or 7th man off the bench.

by the same reasoning both gallinari or milicic should be starting ahead of jeffries and/or harrington. is jeffries a center? no. is harrington a small forward? sort of. is he a power forward? not really.

who has the better core? right now the nets do because of lopez-- but without a real point guard lopez's value will be squandered.

[StutterStep]

He averaged 30mi/gm as a starter sorry he gets credit for what he did there during that yr and a half. He should have been a third option it was his first yr as a starter. Kidd is currently a 3rd-5th option. When Nash was there he was a 3rd option behind Dirk and Finley. If Harris was a higher option he would have then been pegged as he is now, an overrated flailing chucker....LOL!

Let us be real.

Look at Nash's numbers in Dallas, particularly the last 4 years when Cuban turned that franchise around. He averaged (roughly) 16/7/3 on 47.5FG%, 41% 3ptFG%.

And what's this 3rd option thing when it comes to a PG? Nash only took the 3rd highest number of shots before they got Nick Van Exel...then Walker, Jamison, etc...All other times, Nash (as Kidd) have taken the 4th or 5th most FGAs on those teams.

See that's the confusion you are having. You are thinking that because the squad that Harris was on had firepower like Dirk, Terry, Stack, etc...his not being a "3rd option" gives him a pass.

I am strictly pointing out at his CURRENT FGA and FG%, etc... and showing you the only growth has been on the number of times he gets to the free throw lline.

[TKF]

The likely hood either player improves their game tilts in Lopez's favor over Lee. How much.. is up for debate, but for those using his first yr as a basis for improvement I don't see the fault. If Hill were to do what Lopez did in his rookie yr this season we'd pumped up.

you keep questioning weither or not fans should be happy? that is not what we are saying. the nets can be happy, so would we, but that is not the issue here. right now lee is producing at a level of some of the upper tier PF's in this league.... Lopez is not performing close to the level of a Howard, Duncan, or gasol. those are the benchmark bigs in this league.... lee is still developing a jumper, can you gauge how much better that will make him as opposed to lopez upside? do you honestly see lopez as a 18/12 type player? dude that is a tall order for anyone...

I anticipate Lee's productivity compared with other power forwards... reflects he'll be compensated the adequately to them this off-season? Lopez first yr mind you he was a freaking rookie is comparable to what Howard did, comparable to what Bynum did, comparable to what Biendrins did in their first and second yrs. Lopez is developing his post as much as Lee is developing his jumper. Defensively Lopez is progressing faster than a player of Lee's caliber. Lopez needs to be on Howard's Level ok Is Lee on Garnett's or even say Chris Webber's level.... both perimeter bigs later in their career? Lopez was 13/8/2 as a rook. If Jordan Hill did this would you cap him out? Basically you're boxing him in as peaking in 2yrs yet trying to talk as if Lee has room to grow into improving.

LOL smiley face

comparable in what way? impact? LOL howard's impact was twice that of lopez.. give me a break man...

Lopez needs to be on Howard's Level ok Is Lee on Garnett's or even say Chris Webber's level.... both perimeter bigs later in their career? Lopez was 13/8/2 as a rook. If Jordan Hill did this would you cap him out?

no ,lee is not close to garnett or webber.. but he is closer to their level and output than lopez is to Howard and gasol... and who cares about biendrins and bynum? why do you dabble with irrelevant players? Lopez having the same output of those guys is like trying to defend lee saying he had the same output of malik rose early in his career...

[TKF]

the better teams have more starters with skills corresponding to their respective positions than lesser teams. starters should have skills that one associates with the position, and the two most important positions are point guard and center. if the starting point guard is not capable of orchestrating then the team will not achieve because cohesiveness depends on orchestration. that's why both robinson and harris are not really starter types-- neither is particularly good at orchestrating. why put chris duhon in as a starter if that is not the case. both harris and robinson are by far the better athletes.

but basketball is a game of skill too and if you don't have the skills for the position then over time you must be regarded as "an energy guy off the bench."

by the same reasoning lopez is more valuable to a team's core success than david lee. the former has skills that are well-honed while the latter as has been mentioned is more an "energy guy" except he is on a team that is so mediocre that he has to be a starter. has david lee improved? yes, happily, and i am thinking of his ability to pass and his ability to finish. even his little jump shot is coming along a little bit. is he more athletic than lopez? maybe by just a little. but lopez could be a starter on any title-contending team because of his skills while david lee would be better suited to being a 6th or 7th man off the bench.

by the same reasoning both gallinari or milicic should be starting ahead of jeffries and/or harrington. is jeffries a center? no. is harrington a small forward? sort of. is he a power forward? not really.

who has the better core? right now the nets do because of lopez-- but without a real point guard lopez's value will be squandered.

you just lost me right there. Just a little more athletic? dude, lee runs and jumps like a deer.. lopez moves like Herman munster... are you kidding me?

[TheBluest]

you keep questioning weither or not fans should be happy? that is not what we are saying. the nets can be happy, so would we, but that is not the issue here. right now lee is producing at a level of some of the upper tier PF's in this league.... Lopez is not performing close to the level of a Howard, Duncan, or gasol. those are the benchmark bigs in this league.... lee is still developing a jumper, can you gauge how much better that will make him as opposed to lopez upside? do you honestly see lopez as a 18/12 type player? dude that is a tall order for anyone...

I anticipate Lee's productivity compared with other power forwards... reflects he'll be compensated the adequately to them this off-season? Lopez first yr mind you he was a freaking rookie is comparable to what Howard did, comparable to what Bynum did, comparable to what Biendrins did in their first and second yrs. Lopez is developing his post as much as Lee is developing his jumper. Defensively Lopez is progressing faster than a player of Lee's caliber. Lopez needs to be on Howard's Level ok Is Lee on Garnett's or even say Chris Webber's level.... both perimeter bigs later in their career? Lopez was 13/8/2 as a rook. If Jordan Hill did this would you cap him out? Basically you're boxing him in as peaking in 2yrs yet trying to talk as if Lee has room to grow into improving.

LOL smiley face

comparable in what way? impact? LOL howard's impact was twice that of lopez.. give me a break man...

Lopez needs to be on Howard's Level ok Is Lee on Garnett's or even say Chris Webber's level.... both perimeter bigs later in their career? Lopez was 13/8/2 as a rook. If Jordan Hill did this would you cap him out?

no ,lee is not close to garnett or webber.. but he is closer to their level and output than lopez is to Howard and gasol... and who cares about biendrins and bynum? why do you dabble with irrelevant players? Lopez having the same output of those guys is like trying to defend lee saying he had the same output of malik rose early in his career...

I'm speaking in terms of productivity and progression. Lee will never be a power forward you can anchor a team on whereas Lopez will become a center you can anchor a team on. Will Lopez reach Howard's status who knows. Will Gallo reach Dirk status who knows. Stop using these ridiculous unknowns for comparison.

[j4remi]

Devin was like a third option on that team, heck even terry finished out a lot of those games. When he is a complimentary player, he can do fine, just like guys like nate, crawford, etc.. But when being asked to be the man, to run the team, I think the questions are fair. Can he play the way he plays being the primary scorer and ball handler, and still be effective enough to win... the same knock we have on guys like nate...

He averaged 30mi/gm as a starter sorry he gets credit for what he did there during that yr and a half. He should have been a third option it was his first yr as a starter. Kidd is currently a 3rd-5th option. When Nash was there he was a 3rd option behind Dirk and Finley. If Harris was a higher option he would have then been pegged as he is now, an overrated flailing chucker....LOL!

Will O.J. Mayo lead his team to be a winning team as a lead point or 2 guard?

Will Kevin Durant lead his team to be a winning team ditto?

Even if Harris were to do it then the argument is he's Gilbert Arenas and still overrated?

If the Bulls miss the playoffs this yr which they very well could, would this make Derrick Rose overrated?[/quote]

Mayo and Durant don't have a player like VC. Rose got to the playoffs without a VC but with a better team all around so no faulting there. The key though, is those three are five years younger than Harris and have far less experience than him yet play at the least an equivalent role on their teams. Aside from the Bulls, the other two have far worse teams (at least last year they did). All three also lack the experience and development that Harris has been afforded and they weren't afforded years of relying on Dirk, Howard, Terry or VC. They were thrown into the fire and all have shown at least signs that they will be able to lead a winning team, imho Harris is fast approaching the age of no more improvement and just doesn't seem like he can. In five years if Mayo, Rose and Durant are still not on winning teams I'll say the same thing about them...assuming they get better line-ups around them. Basically, my thesis: You can afford to build around Mayo, Rose or Durant...You shouldn't build around Harris, he's a piece to the puzzle but not a center piece.

[StutterStep]

Harris starting meant nothing, he was a caretaker for dirk and terry (off the bench). He was not asked to carry anything. Just don't mess things up.. nash and kid are given the keys to the Porsche and they have delivered. So far, as the "man" harris has led the nets nowhere, and until that changes, his game will be looked upon pretty much the way many people look at guys like nate? you keep trying to seperate the two and using smoke and mirrors to prove your argument.. harris was not the go to guy in Dallas, he is now in NJ, and so far, he comes off as a shoot happy PG that is not getting his team involved and the end result is a team that sucks!!

As TheBluest would say...BING BANG BOOM

[TKF]

He averaged 30mi/gm as a starter sorry he gets credit for what he did there during that yr and a half. He should have been a third option it was his first yr as a starter. Kidd is currently a 3rd-5th option. When Nash was there he was a 3rd option behind Dirk and Finley. If Harris was a higher option he would have then been pegged as he is now, an overrated flailing chucker....LOL!

Let us be real.

Look at Nash's numbers in Dallas, particularly the last 4 years when Cuban turned that franchise around. He averaged (roughly) 16/7/3 on 47.5FG%, 41% 3ptFG%.

And what's this 3rd option thing when it comes to a PG? Nash only took the 3rd highest number of shots before they got Nick Van Exel...then Walker, Jamison, etc...All other times, Nash (as Kidd) have taken the 4th or 5th most FGAs on those teams.

See that's the confusion you are having. You are thinking that because the squad that Harris was on had firepower like Dirk, Terry, Stack, etc...his not being a "3rd option" gives him a pass.

I am strictly pointing out at his CURRENT FGA and FG%, etc... and showing you the only growth has been on the number of times he gets to the free throw lline.

exactly, and the reason harris started was because the team felt terry would be better off the bench with his scoring. they thought harris would be better at running the team and passing.. But guess what? he wasn't. They found out they had jason terry 2.0.. so what did they do? they traded him for a guy who could run the team, yet remain a part of the offense and not disrupt things, the way nash did.... Now was kidd the right player at this point in his career? that is another story, but they were not a good team because harris was starting. They could have started just about anyone and still won a lot of games, their concern was going to the next level and they just felt, devin, with his style of play, was not ready for that..

[StutterStep]

exactly, and the reason harris started was because the team felt terry would be better off the bench with his scoring. they thought harris would be better at running the team and passing.. But guess what? he wasn't. They found out they had jason terry 2.0.. so what did they do? they traded him for a guy who could run the team, yet remain a part of the offense and not disrupt things, the way nash did.... Now was kidd the right player at this point in his career? that is another story, but they were not a good team because harris was starting. They could have started just about anyone and still won a lot of games, their concern was going to the next level and they just felt, devin, with his style of play, was not ready for that..

The thing with Harris is the eternal AI question, which AI answered early in his career. If you put a surrounding cast of defenders and fundamental players, can you lead them to the playoffs.

ANSWER: Finals and a MVP! True, AI was inefficient but he could get you volume and speed like no other, and dude was HARD like Kane mentioned. When teammates and opponents look at AI, they know they're in for a "fight". With Harris, not really.

So, with Harris the volume shows that he can get to the line, but other than that, what are we looking at: 42% FG, 30% 3pt FG --- and with the 2nd or 3rd most attempts of FGs on the team?

I PASS. Devin might not, but I do.

[TKF]

Mayo and Durant don't have a player like VC. Rose got to the playoffs without a VC but with a better team all around so no faulting there. The key though, is those three are five years younger than Harris and have far less experience than him yet play at the least an equivalent role on their teams. Aside from the Bulls, the other two have far worse teams (at least last year they did). All three also lack the experience and development that Harris has been afforded and they weren't afforded years of relying on Dirk, Howard, Terry or VC. They were thrown into the fire and all have shown at least signs that they will be able to lead a winning team, imho Harris is fast approaching the age of no more improvement and just doesn't seem like he can. In five years if Mayo, Rose and Durant are still not on winning teams I'll say the same thing about them...assuming they get better line-ups around them. Basically, my thesis: You can afford to build around Mayo, Rose or Durant...You shouldn't build around Harris, he's a piece to the puzzle but not a center piece.

very good points. I didn't want to elaborate on durant and mayo because the situations are so different and not really relvant to this discussion, but you did well stating your points. I agree You don't build around guys like harris, like nate, they an be a piece to the puzzle, but until something drastic changes in their games, you have guys that have flaws which hinder the success of a team,if they are the focal point. Tomorrow if Dantoni said: "nate, the team is yours, go out and do your thing".. Nate I am sure can put up 20-22 ppg with 5 dimes and 5 boards easy!.. would the knicks win? I am not sure, actually I don't think so, but they can put up numbers. Both he and harris can do this because they are talented players, but their games at this point are not designed to be leading men, therefore they play other roles, and I think the point stutter is trying to prove here is that they are more similar than they people think. And without nitpicking over similar stats and trying to fool people into thinking that those very small differences with the numbers makes them so different, you will see that really, they are very , very much similar players...

[Rockice_8]

Lee puts up these great numbers yet then why did nobody give him a contract this offseason. He put up 18 and 12. Lee's numbers are good but he is nowhere near any top PF's in the league. When you have guys putting up those kind of numbers there is gonna be interest from other teams but there wasn't for Lee. Every GM knows he's not worth what he's asking for because his D is piss poor and his offensive game is limited to pick and rolls and put backs. He is a great hustle guy thats it stop putting him anywhere near the great PF's in this league I could probably list 20 PF's that are better then Lee. Lopez is only in his second year and is better then Lee in almost every facet of the game.

[K_ick_God]

the better teams have more starters with skills corresponding to their respective positions than lesser teams. starters should have skills that one associates with the position, and the two most important positions are point guard and center. if the starting point guard is not capable of orchestrating then the team will not achieve because cohesiveness depends on orchestration. that's why both robinson and harris are not really starter types-- neither is particularly good at orchestrating. why put chris duhon in as a starter if that is not the case. both harris and robinson are by far the better athletes.

but basketball is a game of skill too and if you don't have the skills for the position then over time you must be regarded as "an energy guy off the bench."

by the same reasoning lopez is more valuable to a team's core success than david lee. the former has skills that are well-honed while the latter as has been mentioned is more an "energy guy" except he is on a team that is so mediocre that he has to be a starter. has david lee improved? yes, happily, and i am thinking of his ability to pass and his ability to finish. even his little jump shot is coming along a little bit. is he more athletic than lopez? maybe by just a little. but lopez could be a starter on any title-contending team because of his skills while david lee would be better suited to being a 6th or 7th man off the bench.

by the same reasoning both gallinari or milicic should be starting ahead of jeffries and/or harrington. is jeffries a center? no. is harrington a small forward? sort of. is he a power forward? not really.

who has the better core? right now the nets do because of lopez-- but without a real point guard lopez's value will be squandered.

I agree with most of what you say but Lee is a lot more athletic than Lopez. If Lopez was as athletic as Lee, he'd be pretty dominant. Actually it's Lopez's lack of mobility or athleticism that makes him limited IMO.

With Lopez, I don't see the athleticism to face up and go around people like many dominant centers can do. I don't see the quickness to spin baseline. I don't see a great face-up jumper though that could develop. Again, I compare his movement on the court to Luc Longley. Yes he's already significantly better than Luc ever was, but that's who his movement/game/basic skill set reminds me of.

[Rockice_8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdpkgDIta5U

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have actually seen Brook play looks mechanical at times yes but he's still learning his footwork. He's much more athletic on his feet then most people give him credit for.

Watch him go baseline at the 22 sec mark. No he's not the most athletic guy he's average but he's not Big Z or Luc Longley come on.

[StutterStep]

Lee puts up these great numbers yet then why did nobody give him a contract this offseason. He put up 18 and 12.

Are you unfamiliar with RFA status, and that Portland wanted him but not at 10mil a year or to tie their money up?

[j4remi]

Lee puts up these great numbers yet then why did nobody give him a contract this offseason. He put up 18 and 12. Lee's numbers are good but he is nowhere near any top PF's in the league. When you have guys putting up those kind of numbers there is gonna be interest from other teams but there wasn't for Lee. Every GM knows he's not worth what he's asking for because his D is piss poor and his offensive game is limited to pick and rolls and put backs. He is a great hustle guy thats it stop putting him anywhere near the great PF's in this league I could probably list 20 PF's that are better then Lee. Lopez is only in his second year and is better then Lee in almost every facet of the game.

I think you'd have trouble listing 15 without having at least debateables on it. Lee has a baby hook that he uses once in a while that actually isn't bad and he has definitely increased his range and hits the jumper with some consistency now. Brook isn't better than Lee across the board though, that's hyperbole...heavy hyperbole. With Lee you have to consider, he was RFA, so it limited team interest in him. Add the economy (no one was interested in Andre Miller who's a damn good and proven PG for instance) and the limited options (not many teams with space or PF need) to his reasons for garnering little interest.

Lee has a number of things going for him though that are inarguable.

A) He's a double double machine, throughout his career when given minutes he's produced.

B) Ambidextrous, this is why he's so effective on those pick and rolls.

C) Consistent improvement, every year he's improved and added something to his game.

For me, Brook hasn't put up better numbers and has yet to show whether he'll improve more and more. I saw little headway in his game this preseason, so I've had doubts. I actually can understand people calling Lopez better, he's a true C and plays defense...but if we talk offensive end, Lee can dribble somewhat, finishes with both hands equally effectively, passes very well and crashes the boards better. I take Lee right now.

[dk7th]

tkf--

the two players are more close athletically when considering their ability to defend their respective positions. i don't think lee is particularly good at defending the power forward position while lopez seems pretty good at defending the center position. lee is very slow backpedaling and his lateral quickness is not good. he is the type of guy who can be taken off the dribble on the perimeter but also overpowered down low. lopez may be "herman munster" but as a physical presence in the pivot he is of greater value than david lee.

[j4remi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdpkgDIta5U

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have actually seen Brook play looks mechanical at times yes but he's still learning his footwork. He's much more athletic on his feet then most people give him credit for.

Watch him go baseline at the 22 sec mark. No he's not the most athletic guy he's average but he's not Big Z or Luc Longley come on.

He's an average athlete, Lee is a damn good athlete. People sleep on his vertical leap, running the floor, and overall athleticism for some reason. Lee won a dunk contest and gets up and down the floor well. No one's calling Brook a bad athlete, but he's not as athletic as Lee.

[stuporman]

Lopez put up similar numbers to Frye in their respective rookie years. How'd that work out for Frye? He had the stupendous upside Lopez has, right?

Not every rookie after a decent season only has up to go stat wise. Lee has proven he improves every year. Lopez hasn't yet. Let's see if he does before he's anointed the next great center.

Harris has yet to prove he can lead any team to winning. He's only been a complimentary player to a team already a winning one.

[TKF]

Lee puts up these great numbers yet then why did nobody give him a contract this offseason. He put up 18 and 12. Lee's numbers are good but he is nowhere near any top PF's in the league. When you have guys putting up those kind of numbers there is gonna be interest from other teams but there wasn't for Lee. Every GM knows he's not worth what he's asking for because his D is piss poor and his offensive game is limited to pick and rolls and put backs. He is a great hustle guy thats it stop putting him anywhere near the great PF's in this league I could probably list 20 PF's that are better then Lee. Lopez is only in his second year and is better then Lee in almost every facet of the game.

Lee was a RFA.. some teams didn't want to risk that... portland was interested for sure..