Knicks Core vs. Nets Core

[TKF]

tkf--

the two players are more close athletically when considering their ability to defend their respective positions. i don't think lee is particularly good at defending the power forward position while lopez seems pretty good at defending the center position. lee is very slow backpedaling and his lateral quickness is not good. he is the type of guy who can be taken off the dribble on the perimeter but also overpowered down low. lopez may be "herman munster" but as a physical presence in the pivot he is of greater value than david lee.

who has taken lee off the dribble? what PF is doing that? what center?

And lee moves well laterally, he is not a physical presence, but even for their position lee is a better athelte by far. Athletically other than the freak athletic PF's lee is just as good as any... Lopez is not even on the same athletic level as darko... certainly not on the level of a joakim noah? and is not in the same galaxy as dwight... Lee is not a freak athlete, but for a PF, he is just as athletic as 90% of the Pf's in the league.....

One thing people forget about lee. he is no longer scoring his points off put backs and garbage points. He is taking guys to the basket, and running the pick and roll. When you look at the P/R, the big man is usually a good shooter( which lee is just adequate) or the big can move, has good hands and can finish. guys like Karl malone comes to mind. Lee is succesful at the pick and roll because he is a fantastic athlete, can finish with both hands, quick to the hoop, can jump, play above the rim, and beat the defense... If it were this easy for the less athletic players in the league, I am sure there would be many out there doing the same thing... it doesn't work that way...

[K_ick_God]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdpkgDIta5U

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have actually seen Brook play looks mechanical at times yes but he's still learning his footwork. He's much more athletic on his feet then most people give him credit for.

Watch him go baseline at the 22 sec mark. No he's not the most athletic guy he's average but he's not Big Z or Luc Longley come on.

He's got a little athleticism but not a lot. How many scores or defensive plays is he going to get off his athleticism.

[dk7th]

tkf--

the two players are more close athletically when considering their ability to defend their respective positions. i don't think lee is particularly good at defending the power forward position while lopez seems pretty good at defending the center position. lee is very slow backpedaling and his lateral quickness is not good. he is the type of guy who can be taken off the dribble on the perimeter but also overpowered down low. lopez may be "herman munster" but as a physical presence in the pivot he is of greater value than david lee.

who has taken lee off the dribble? what PF is doing that? what center?

And lee moves well laterally, he is not a physical presence, but even for their position lee is a better athelte by far. Athletically other than the freak athletic PF's lee is just as good as any... Lopez is not even on the same athletic level as darko... certainly not on the level of a joakim noah? and is not in the same galaxy as dwight... Lee is not a freak athlete, but for a PF, he is just as athletic as 90% of the Pf's in the league.....

One thing people forget about lee. he is no longer scoring his points off put backs and garbage points. He is taking guys to the basket, and running the pick and roll. When you look at the P/R, the big man is usually a good shooter( which lee is just adequate) or the big can move, has good hands and can finish. guys like Karl malone comes to mind. Lee is succesful at the pick and roll because he is a fantastic athlete, can finish with both hands, quick to the hoop, can jump, play above the rim, and beat the defense... If it were this easy for the less athletic players in the league, I am sure there would be many out there doing the same thing... it doesn't work that way...

you're asking for specific instances on defense. i can't think of any at the moment but obviously my overall impression is that he doesn't do very well at it. perhaps during your "keys" threads i will cite some examples that i saw.

offensively i mostly agree with you regarding lee. i love ambidexterity in players especially point guards but i'm glad lee at least possesses that trait. i like the way he works the pick and roll but i haven't seen too many instances of him taking people off the dribble. i do think he is an improved passer especially when he is converged upon in the lane. lee has pretty good hands but then so does lopez and maybe better than lee's. "play above the rim" is not something i see with either player but i'll be looking for it regarding lee since you are so insistent.

i would also add that athleticism should include peripheral vision, soft hands, hand/eye coordination, and finally the ability to feint.

[TKF]

tkf--

the two players are more close athletically when considering their ability to defend their respective positions. i don't think lee is particularly good at defending the power forward position while lopez seems pretty good at defending the center position. lee is very slow backpedaling and his lateral quickness is not good. he is the type of guy who can be taken off the dribble on the perimeter but also overpowered down low. lopez may be "herman munster" but as a physical presence in the pivot he is of greater value than david lee.

who has taken lee off the dribble? what PF is doing that? what center?

And lee moves well laterally, he is not a physical presence, but even for their position lee is a better athelte by far. Athletically other than the freak athletic PF's lee is just as good as any... Lopez is not even on the same athletic level as darko... certainly not on the level of a joakim noah? and is not in the same galaxy as dwight... Lee is not a freak athlete, but for a PF, he is just as athletic as 90% of the Pf's in the league.....

One thing people forget about lee. he is no longer scoring his points off put backs and garbage points. He is taking guys to the basket, and running the pick and roll. When you look at the P/R, the big man is usually a good shooter( which lee is just adequate) or the big can move, has good hands and can finish. guys like Karl malone comes to mind. Lee is succesful at the pick and roll because he is a fantastic athlete, can finish with both hands, quick to the hoop, can jump, play above the rim, and beat the defense... If it were this easy for the less athletic players in the league, I am sure there would be many out there doing the same thing... it doesn't work that way...

you're asking for specific instances on defense. i can't think of any at the moment but obviously my overall impression is that he doesn't do very well at it. perhaps during your "keys" threads i will cite some examples that i saw.

offensively i mostly agree with you regarding lee. i love ambidexterity in players especially point guards but i'm glad lee at least possesses that trait. i like the way he works the pick and roll but i haven't seen too many instances of him taking people off the dribble. i do think he is an improved passer especially when he is converged upon in the lane. lee has pretty good hands but then so does lopez and maybe better than lee's. "play above the rim" is not something i see with either player but i'll be looking for it regarding lee since you are so insistent.

i would also add that athleticism should include peripheral vision, soft hands, hand/eye coordination, and finally the ability to feint.

I am not asking for specific instances. Rather what I am asking is , how many PF's are going to take him off the dribble. I just don't see many....

lee has pretty good hands but then so does lopez and maybe better than lee's. "play above the rim" is not something i see with either player but i'll be looking for it regarding lee since you are so insistent.

yea, lee plays above the rim, we are talking about finishing and putbacks. lee usually finishes those with dunks, whereas lopez seems content with layups, but again, he is not a quick leaper or a good one, so I don't expect him to... lee usually does....

[K_ick_God]

^One good measure of Lopez's athleticism, or lack thereof, is that he cannot really defend Lee at all. Lee scores on him with relative ease.

[dk7th]

ok tkf "above the rim" on putbacks of course-- when he has a chance to gather himself with two legs under him. on finishes off pick and roll? maybe not so much. he gets arm extension with a neat wrist flip but more of a lunge than a leap so far as i can visualize. this means he can't bound off one leg which is an athletic move. but if he gets a chance to gather himself with two legs under him he's really good and certainly more agile than lopez. one more thing about lee: i have heard many of his detractors say he gets blocked more than anyone. slam dunk contests are one thing but to the degree that this alleged penchant for getting blocked is true then one has to question his athleticism in this regard.

needless to say we'll see about which power forwards will be able to get by him without him fouling.

[Rockice_8]

^^ And so does Lopez on Lee. I'm not saying Lopez is more athletic then Lee I'm just saying he's doesn't have concrete in his shoes he runs the floor well. TKF without looking I'll bet lopez had more dunks then Lee last year. Lopez finishes strong.

[K_ick_God]

^^ And so does Lopez on Lee. I'm not saying Lopez is more athletic then Lee I'm just saying he's doesn't have concrete in his shoes he runs the floor well. TKF without looking I'll bet lopez had more dunks then Lee last year. Lopez finishes strong.

I hate to have it both ways but a guy with 3 inches and a lot of weight on a guy *should* score on him with relative ease in the post. But, a guy who is big *can* defend a smaller guy *if* that bigger player is athletic enough to defend a smaller, quicker player. Lopez cannot guard Lee because he's too quick for him, plain & simple.

And as a footnote, Lopez could not score on a double team, which is another thing that a dominant/athletic big will show signs of doing even at a young age -- if he is a significant athlete. Lopez looked pretty bad against the double team in pre-season and I expect teams to double him often. Without VC, Lopez will have a harder time.

Nobody is saying that he is not a good center. But dominant, and that is the key thing here? I don't see that happening.

[TKF]

^^ And so does Lopez on Lee. I'm not saying Lopez is more athletic then Lee I'm just saying he's doesn't have concrete in his shoes he runs the floor well. TKF without looking I'll bet lopez had more dunks then Lee last year. Lopez finishes strong.

I hate to have it both ways but a guy with 3 inches and a lot of weight on a guy *should* score on him with relative ease in the post. But, a guy who is big *can* defend a smaller guy *if* that bigger player is athletic enough to defend a smaller, quicker player. Lopez cannot guard Lee because he's too quick for him, plain & simple.

And as a footnote, Lopez could not score on a double team, which is another thing that a dominant/athletic big will show signs of doing even at a young age -- if he is a significant athlete. Lopez looked pretty bad against the double team in pre-season and I expect teams to double him often. Without VC, Lopez will have a harder time.

Nobody is saying that he is not a good center. But dominant, and that is the key thing here? I don't see that happening.

yea.. honestly, I can't see why I am even here arguing who is the better athlete.. lee or lopez.. it becomes senseless. One guy is a PF who runs the floor like a deer and finishes with dunks. the other is a plodder, with cement shoes, who seems better at flipping shots off the backboard than power dunks. If lopez was a better athlete, even if he had lee's athleticism, he would have been a much higher pick for sure....

[K_ick_God]

^^ And so does Lopez on Lee. I'm not saying Lopez is more athletic then Lee I'm just saying he's doesn't have concrete in his shoes he runs the floor well. TKF without looking I'll bet lopez had more dunks then Lee last year. Lopez finishes strong.

I hate to have it both ways but a guy with 3 inches and a lot of weight on a guy *should* score on him with relative ease in the post. But, a guy who is big *can* defend a smaller guy *if* that bigger player is athletic enough to defend a smaller, quicker player. Lopez cannot guard Lee because he's too quick for him, plain & simple.

And as a footnote, Lopez could not score on a double team, which is another thing that a dominant/athletic big will show signs of doing even at a young age -- if he is a significant athlete. Lopez looked pretty bad against the double team in pre-season and I expect teams to double him often. Without VC, Lopez will have a harder time.

Nobody is saying that he is not a good center. But dominant, and that is the key thing here? I don't see that happening.

yea.. honestly, I can't see why I am even here arguing who is the better athlete.. lee or lopez.. it becomes senseless. One guy is a PF who runs the floor like a deer and finishes with dunks. the other is a plodder, with cement shoes, who seems better at flipping shots off the backboard than power dunks. If lopez was a better athlete, even if he had lee's athleticism, he would have been a much higher pick for sure....

Lopez is skilled and big enough that if he had Lee's athleticism, he'd be the top pick in most any draft, including his own. A fast Lopez who plays above the rim is a dominant player.

[Rockice_8]

^^ And so does Lopez on Lee. I'm not saying Lopez is more athletic then Lee I'm just saying he's doesn't have concrete in his shoes he runs the floor well. TKF without looking I'll bet lopez had more dunks then Lee last year. Lopez finishes strong.

I hate to have it both ways but a guy with 3 inches and a lot of weight on a guy *should* score on him with relative ease in the post. But, a guy who is big *can* defend a smaller guy *if* that bigger player is athletic enough to defend a smaller, quicker player. Lopez cannot guard Lee because he's too quick for him, plain & simple.

And as a footnote, Lopez could not score on a double team, which is another thing that a dominant/athletic big will show signs of doing even at a young age -- if he is a significant athlete. Lopez looked pretty bad against the double team in pre-season and I expect teams to double him often. Without VC, Lopez will have a harder time.

Nobody is saying that he is not a good center. But dominant, and that is the key thing here? I don't see that happening.

Thank you very much KnicksGod you just made my point. Lopez commands a double team he's too skilled to be guarded by one guy. Lopez struggled a bit yeah but he's 20 and it's his first time being doubled like this he'll learn.

[TKF]

^^ And so does Lopez on Lee. I'm not saying Lopez is more athletic then Lee I'm just saying he's doesn't have concrete in his shoes he runs the floor well. TKF without looking I'll bet lopez had more dunks then Lee last year. Lopez finishes strong.

I hate to have it both ways but a guy with 3 inches and a lot of weight on a guy *should* score on him with relative ease in the post. But, a guy who is big *can* defend a smaller guy *if* that bigger player is athletic enough to defend a smaller, quicker player. Lopez cannot guard Lee because he's too quick for him, plain & simple.

And as a footnote, Lopez could not score on a double team, which is another thing that a dominant/athletic big will show signs of doing even at a young age -- if he is a significant athlete. Lopez looked pretty bad against the double team in pre-season and I expect teams to double him often. Without VC, Lopez will have a harder time.

Nobody is saying that he is not a good center. But dominant, and that is the key thing here? I don't see that happening.

Thank you very much KnicksGod you just made my point. Lopez commands a double team he's too skilled to be guarded by one guy. Lopez struggled a bit yeah but he's 20 and it's his first time being doubled like this he'll learn.

I think you missed that one completely. He is saying that they will double lopez not because he can't be guarded straight up. but because they can get him to turn the ball over, and the options of another scorer that can hurt you like VC isn't present.... Do you honestly believe that lopez will command a double team? really? I mean other than to get him to turn the ball over...

[dk7th]

tkf with all due respect you are not being quite so evenhanded as you customarily are. what if any are robin lopez's positive attributes? i see a basketball player who, while not so athletic as lee, still has a better set of basketball skills coming into the league than david lee possesses. maybe things are evening out but you make lee sound like james worthy and you make lopez seem like a stiff.

with the main thrust of the thread in mind, who in your opinion would make for a better piece of a core, lopez or lee?

[j4remi]

tkf with all due respect you are not being quite so evenhanded as you customarily are. what if any are robin lopez's positive attributes? i see a basketball player who, while not so athletic as lee, still has a better set of basketball skills coming into the league than david lee possesses. maybe things are evening out but you make lee sound like james worthy and you make lopez seem like a stiff.

with the main thrust of the thread in mind, who in your opinion would make for a better piece of a core, lopez or lee?

I think it's more like he thinks Lee is a solid, borderline allstar and Lopez isn't. Depending on your core and the type of team you're working with, you pick which piece. Brook didn't get love from D'antoni because he doesn't fit the system, but if you're the Bulls it's gotta be Brook... and on and on with these picks. Lopez has to get a double this year to honestly say he has a better skillset all around, someone said he's better in almost every facet of the game and that just isn't true.

[K_ick_God]

^^ And so does Lopez on Lee. I'm not saying Lopez is more athletic then Lee I'm just saying he's doesn't have concrete in his shoes he runs the floor well. TKF without looking I'll bet lopez had more dunks then Lee last year. Lopez finishes strong.

I hate to have it both ways but a guy with 3 inches and a lot of weight on a guy *should* score on him with relative ease in the post. But, a guy who is big *can* defend a smaller guy *if* that bigger player is athletic enough to defend a smaller, quicker player. Lopez cannot guard Lee because he's too quick for him, plain & simple.

And as a footnote, Lopez could not score on a double team, which is another thing that a dominant/athletic big will show signs of doing even at a young age -- if he is a significant athlete. Lopez looked pretty bad against the double team in pre-season and I expect teams to double him often. Without VC, Lopez will have a harder time.

Nobody is saying that he is not a good center. But dominant, and that is the key thing here? I don't see that happening.

Thank you very much KnicksGod you just made my point. Lopez commands a double team he's too skilled to be guarded by one guy. Lopez struggled a bit yeah but he's 20 and it's his first time being doubled like this he'll learn.

He's a good scorer but on a team with more than a couple options, he's not really double worthy. If you have the luxury of doubling him, sure -- why not. This season, teams may have that luxury. If the Nets get a couple of good scorers, then you don't have to double Brook and I remain very dubious that he will ever be good enough to carry your offense. He's not a 1 or 2 scorer to me -- he may be a 2nd scorer on a decent team but not a great team. That's my projection. Could be wrong, or could be right. It's what I see in Brook.

So, I don't really agree that Brook "commands" a double team.

Nets' fans have a right to be excited by Brook but let's not get ahead of ourselves. He's a good player whose future is not certain. I mean, the guy averaged 13 PPG. How is that dominant? Wilson Chandler averaged 14 PPG and you don't see many Knick fans saying he's on his way to dominance, commands double teams, etc. It was Wilson's second season but really his first season playing any minutes, just like Brook, and he outscored Lopez. But Chandler is no more the next Wade than Lopez is the next Duncan.

[TheBluest]

Let me show how ridiculous some of you are with picking and choosing and the knick-flopping

Some want to say what has Harris done.... when first of all how is it really relevant to Harris being a good basketball player or not or even a good point guard? Chris Paul didn't make the playoffs first 2yrs in the league. But if we go that route and someone else fires back with well what has so and so player done or would the same apply if so and so player fails this yr.


Case in point Derrick Rose. Exsqueeze Me!....Derrick Rose overrated asss wasn't leading the Bulls anywhere but to another lottery season until Paxson saved him(might as well call anyone overrated here to keep the reputation up LOL) by making a trade with the Kings... let's get that straight not now but RIGHT NOW


I love how much onus we like to put on Harris as the sole responsible one for lack of team success yet I keep hearing these references to Vince and ALL-STAR. Did Vince fail? How can you be an All-Star and fail as bad as the Nets did? Oh wait I guess this proves my point when people mention All-Star how much import does it really carry these days. When we were comparing teams last yr, or the past few yrs in general we weren't referring to Vince as Vince. Matter of fact Knick fans have been calling New Jersey trash for about 3-4yrs now when they had Kidd, R-Gay(no Rudy), Wince(3 ALL-STARS mind you they missed playoffs a couple times, matter of fact were out of the picture before Kidd was traded)....that's right Vince was Wince then or shall we say Vinjury. But fast forward to this current thread when Harris was playing with ALL-STAR Dirk he was simply a footnote until the Playoffs came and they played the Warriors then it's Harris failed(forget the regular season stuff)...Dirk walks away Scott Free league MVP that yr BTW. When Harris is playing with Vince the ALL-STAR he's looked at differently. It's....OH MY GOSH HARRIS WAS PLAYING WITH ALL-STAR VINCE AND HE FAILED TO LEAD THEM ANYWHERE!!!!! Vince walks away Scott Free also... I got it I got it...LOL smiley face


Bottomline is this..... Harris is a very good basketball, maybe slightly above average point guard, still has good upside, will improve as a point guard, is multi-dimensional as a player, more two-way at this point and has more trade value versus any player in the Core comparison.


As far as Brook vs Lee and athleticism Lee wins 1000 times out of 10.

[dk7th]

Thank you very much KnicksGod you just made my point. Lopez commands a double team he's too skilled to be guarded by one guy. Lopez struggled a bit yeah but he's 20 and it's his first time being doubled like this he'll learn.

I think you missed that one completely. He is saying that they will double lopez not because he can't be guarded straight up. but because they can get him to turn the ball over, and the options of another scorer that can hurt you like VC isn't present.... Do you honestly believe that lopez will command a double team? really? I mean other than to get him to turn the ball over...

a good big man will not try to score over doubles only-- he'll try to pass out of doubles that will lead to finding an open man. the pass that leads to the pass that leads to a good shot, or a pass to a cutter. in fact trying to score over two defenders is folly unless you can hit free throws.

if lopez is getting doubled it's not merely because teams expect he will turn the ball over, but also because he has not shown the kind of high-level skilled passing that makes for a solid if not great low post player-- like the player lopez models his game after tim duncan. duncan is not physically dominant like shaquille was but he has just as many titles. and no i am not saying lopez will be as good or as successful as duncan any more than i believe david lee will be as good or as successful as james worthy.

[TheBluest]

tkf with all due respect you are not being quite so evenhanded as you customarily are. what if any are robin lopez's positive attributes? i see a basketball player who, while not so athletic as lee, still has a better set of basketball skills coming into the league than david lee possesses. maybe things are evening out but you make lee sound like james worthy and you make lopez seem like a stiff.

with the main thrust of the thread in mind, who in your opinion would make for a better piece of a core, lopez or lee?

TKF won't give an inch to a lot of players in this league. Players he doesn't think are all that good

Arenas
Iguodola
CDR
Hedo
Dunleavy
Rondo
Harris
Lopez
Monta
A. Randolph
Fernandez
Oden
Josh Smith
Deron Williams
Ariza
Jordan

When your Rap Sheet starts collecting up like this you gotta start wondering what's the angle. Highly critical and suspicious of all these players at one time or another

[stuporman]

Lopez got double teamed when he had a PF who is 3 inches shorter on him...that's not 'commanding double teams' from all the centers of the NBA on him... Talk about spin!

[K_ick_God]

Thank you very much KnicksGod you just made my point. Lopez commands a double team he's too skilled to be guarded by one guy. Lopez struggled a bit yeah but he's 20 and it's his first time being doubled like this he'll learn.

I think you missed that one completely. He is saying that they will double lopez not because he can't be guarded straight up. but because they can get him to turn the ball over, and the options of another scorer that can hurt you like VC isn't present.... Do you honestly believe that lopez will command a double team? really? I mean other than to get him to turn the ball over...

a good big man will not try to score over doubles only-- he'll try to pass out of doubles that will lead to finding an open man. the pass that leads to the pass that leads to a good shot, or a pass to a cutter. in fact trying to score over two defenders is folly unless you can hit free throws.

if lopez is getting doubled it's not merely because teams expect he will turn the ball over, but also because he has not shown the kind of high-level skilled passing that makes for a solid if not great low post player-- like the player lopez models his game after tim duncan. duncan is not physically dominant like shaquille was but he has just as many titles. and no i am not saying lopez will be as good or as successful as duncan any more than i believe david lee will be as good or as successful as james worthy.

I don't really disagree with this. Brook hasn't shown great passing skills yet.