Could Sessions be Dealt?

[shrink]

Yep, there's shrink again, trying to mess with our undefeated line-up ..!

OK, if things go as I expect, Kahn will extend Corey Brewer on Saturday for his $3.7 after an impressive pre-season, and let OPec walk .. I mean "earn his next contract" in Carney-speak. However, assuming a $52 mil salary cap, this leaves us only $9.5 mil in raw cap space. I expect MIN is going to shoot for at least $13-14 to be in the conversation if a team wants to sign-and-trade a max deal player, and we do carry several small assets that would make trading with us appealing. To get there, we need to find the cap space somewhere.

Fortunately, I think everyone on the team could bring back expirings at this point. But who fits? And who would have the more trade value on another team, rather than here?

I think the obvious answer is for us to trade our oldest and most productive players for youth with higher upside. Ryan Gomes fits that description perfectly, and we could probably get more for him from a contender than he would be worth in a few more wins this season to us.

Does Sessions fit too? I think he may. Its too early to declare Flynn a success right now, but he doesn't have to be. We need Flynn to have the chance of success (to keep fans interested), and to be able to play big minutes. I'm comfortable he's proven he can do both.

Meanwhile, if Flynn is using up all these minutes, it will only hurt Sessions trade value. Some of you will be surprised to know that Sessions had a PER in Rondo's neighborhood, but it won't stay there if we can't find him minutes on the floor, and his trade value will decrease, regardless of his bargain price. We should dismiss the possibility of trading him now, just because he'd get us some more wins .. that's not out goal.

[shrink]

I began toying with the idea of what the possibilities would be if we put Sessions on the block, and whether we'd get enough back to make trading a good value player with upside worth it to us.

One team that sticks out is BOS. They have been struggling for weeks trying to get Rondo to re-sign, but he and his agent have constantly said "no." Rondo played great for them in the playoffs, and wants a big pay day, but the Celtics have no idea what their team will look like in two years, so they are at an impasse, and they risk losing him next year for nothing. Both sides are frustrated.

I've just been thinking out loud so far, but take a look at this:

BOS GIVES: Rondo + Scalabrine + Walker or Giddens
BOG GETS: Sessions + Gomes

MIN GIVES: Session + Gomes
MIN GETS: ?????? + Scalabrine + Wallker

THIRD TEAM GIVES: ???????????????
THIRD TEAM GETS: Rondo (+ incentives from MIN?)

BOS: A nice save if Rondo is leaving, trading your 18 PER PG for a 17 PER PG and Gomes. SCARY deep compared to last year, with starters from other teams in the second unit, a big plus for an older team to limit minutes and injury risk

Ramon Sessions, Eddie House
Ray Allen, Marquis Daniels
Paul Pierce, Ryan Gomes
Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace
Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace

THIRD TEAM: Adds Rondo with an extension. Can get Rondo without trading production (that BOS would want) and instead trade potential (that MIN would want). Which contender has a young SG-SF lottery pick who doesn't fit their "win-now" approach, and wants to jump ahead of free agency to buy Rondo?

MIN: Gets a young starter at a position of need? I'd be thinking that Rondo at $2 mil salary should warrant a lottery pick level player that would fit from the 2009 or 2008 draft ... plus the VERY valuable cap space. It'd cost us wins, and we might need to wiggle a back-up PG into the equation somewhere (though I could see Flynn playing 34+ mpg), but this is how you prep a team for 2010, in a very Foye/Mike Miller type of move.

[Basti]

Yep, there's shrink again, trying to mess with our undefeated line-up ..!

if it ain't broke, don't fix it

[Esohny]

I don't know that there are a ton of great options out there. Maybe Gordon from the Clippers if Baron self destructs or they find a sucker to take his awful contract, although they love Gordon supposedly. Maybe Deandre Jordan and our pick returned as a basis for a deal?

There aren't a ton of teams with multiple talented wings and a need for a PG, unless we want to get involved with GSW...not a lot of interest in Curry or Monta though.

I suppose we could go for Earl Clark if he shows something , and Sessions injects some youth into the Suns backcourt and maybe becomes the Nash heir apparent, but I'd want more back than just Clark.

[theGreatRC]

Having an above average backup PG is great. I'd rather keep him.

[Wolves2011]

Yep, there's shrink again, trying to mess with our undefeated line-up ..!

OK, if things go as I expect, Kahn will extend Corey Brewer on Saturday for his $3.7 after an impressive pre-season, and let OPec walk .. I mean "earn his next contract" in Carney-speak. However, assuming a $52 mil salary cap, this leaves us only $9.5 mil in raw cap space. I expect MIN is going to shoot for at least $13-14 to be in the conversation if a team wants to sign-and-trade a max deal player, and we do carry several small assets that would make trading with us appealing. To get there, we need to find the cap space somewhere.

Fortunately, I think everyone on the team could bring back expirings at this point. But who fits? And who would have the more trade value on another team, rather than here?

I think the obvious answer is for us to trade our oldest and most productive players for youth with higher upside. Ryan Gomes fits that description perfectly, and we could probably get more for him from a contender than he would be worth in a few more wins this season to us.

Does Sessions fit too? I think he may. Its too early to declare Flynn a success right now, but he doesn't have to be. We need Flynn to have the chance of success (to keep fans interested), and to be able to play big minutes. I'm comfortable he's proven he can do both.

Meanwhile, if Flynn is using up all these minutes, it will only hurt Sessions trade value. Some of you will be surprised to know that Sessions had a PER in Rondo's neighborhood, but it won't stay there if we can't find him minutes on the floor, and his trade value will decrease, regardless of his bargain price. We should dismiss the possibility of trading him now, just because he'd get us some more wins .. that's not out goal.

I agree with you about Sessions, [and said so, in another posting]

IF Flynn is playing well enough.... probably half a season to assess

If Sessions really isn't going to be used Rambis as a SG. He could be our best SG, his numbers last season at Milwaukee were split between PG and SG.

Gomes is another who while a good player, might be overpriced with a $50 million cap to be a bench player. [Said that as well in another string.]

In Theory sessions PER won't be affected by playing time, because PER is time independent... his wins produced and win share would be affected as would his expected value [I think thats what Hollinger calls it] would be however.

We could do something at mid-year....

But I'd like to bring back talent, for Sessions and Gomes..... they are both solid players on "decent" contracts.......if all we get is expiring, I'd at least like to get draft picks..... or something....

[Wolves2011]

I began toying with the idea of what the possibilities would be if we put Sessions on the block, and whether we'd get enough back to make trading a good value player with upside worth it to us.

One team that sticks out is BOS. They have been struggling for weeks trying to get Rondo to re-sign, but he and his agent have constantly said "no." Rondo played great for them in the playoffs, and wants a big pay day, but the Celtics have no idea what their team will look like in two years, so they are at an impasse, and they risk losing him next year for nothing. Both sides are frustrated.

I've just been thinking out loud so far, but take a look at this:

BOS GIVES: Rondo + Scalabrine + Walker or Giddens
BOG GETS: Sessions + Gomes

MIN GIVES: Session + Gomes
MIN GETS: ?????? + Scalabrine + Wallker

THIRD TEAM GIVES: ???????????????
THIRD TEAM GETS: Rondo (+ incentives from MIN?)

BOS: A nice save if Rondo is leaving, trading your 18 PER PG for a 17 PER PG and Gomes. SCARY deep compared to last year, with starters from other teams in the second unit, a big plus for an older team to limit minutes and injury risk

Ramon Sessions, Eddie House
Ray Allen, Marquis Daniels
Paul Pierce, Ryan Gomes
Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace
Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace

THIRD TEAM: Adds Rondo with an extension. Can get Rondo without trading production (that BOS would want) and instead trade potential (that MIN would want). Which contender has a young SG-SF lottery pick who doesn't fit their "win-now" approach, and wants to jump ahead of free agency to buy Rondo?

MIN: Gets a young starter at a position of need? I'd be thinking that Rondo at $2 mil salary should warrant a lottery pick level player that would fit from the 2009 or 2008 draft ... plus the VERY valuable cap space. It'd cost us wins, and we might need to wiggle a back-up PG into the equation somewhere (though I could see Flynn playing 34+ mpg), but this is how you prep a team for 2010, in a very Foye/Mike Miller type of move.

Doubt Celtics want to trade Rondo until the season is over.....

Even if Sessions can play as well as Rondo.......and he definitely isn't as good a defender on a team that prides itself on its defense.

Rondo: defensive win share last season: 5.1
Sessions: defensive win share last season: 2.1


Rondo has chemistry with his team..... and its hard to develop that between the trade deadline and the playoffs....

[The wolves won't trade Sessions until we are sure of Flynn and also sure we can't use him at SG. So the Wolves don't do this deal before the trade deadline at the earliest.]

If we did do this type of deal, we should get more value than just expiring contracts......

Rondo has real value in the trading market.......

If we are essentially getting Rondo [and contracts] for Sessions and Gomes, we need real trade value..... in the form of good players with expiring contract who we can "audition" or good draft picks.....

[Krapinsky]

Sessions cannot be traded until Dec. 15, so by then I imagine he will be very much available. I think Kahn would easily part for him for either a) an expiring and a decent first rounder, or b) as part of a package that brings back a quality wing player.

He would seem like a great fit in Philadelphia as a Miller replacement, since Jrue is most liekly a few years away anyway. Anyway we could pry away Thad Young?

Thad and Greene for Gomes, Sessions and Utah 1st?

[revprodeji]

Unless a legit win (2nd option) can be had for Sessions+exp then I do not move him. I like the idea of having strong pg play.

Seriously, once the rest of the team improves how much of an advantage is having Sessions play Olies minutes?

[cpfsf]

Still not a fan of the Sessions signing. I would elaborate more, but I have to go to work.

[ChazzleDazzle]

Rondo has chemistry with his team..... and its hard to develop that between the trade deadline and the playoffs....

Actually, there was just an article in ESPN the Mag about how Rondo doesn't have chemistry with his team. (As in, Doc Rivers: "Do you think your teammates like playing with you?")

Not that that makes it true. Just sayin... He seems (based only on this one article) to have a hard time fitting in with people.

[Wolves2011]

Sessions cannot be traded until Dec. 15, so by then I imagine he will be very much available. I think Kahn would easily part for him for either a) an expiring and a decent first rounder, or b) as part of a package that brings back a quality wing player.

He would seem like a great fit in Philadelphia as a Miller replacement, since Jrue is most liekly a few years away anyway. Anyway we could pry away Thad Young?

Thad and Greene for Gomes, Sessions and Utah 1st?

Sessions for Young..... not a bad idea... have to think about it more...

Young is a scorer.......but not a great passer (1.1 ast/gm last year) , and his rebounding was down last year (5 reb to 4 reb/gm), his defense was also weak -- 2.5 def. win share, [was 2.0 year before]

Wins Produced 2.2, wp48 0.040 [below average]
PER 15.3 [just above average]

Year before (2007-2008):
Wins Produced: 3.2, wp48 0.099 [average]
PER 16.5

Neither Green nor Young is expiring......

Again its worth considering......after some thought, I think Young is more flash than substance.

[Wolves2011]

Rondo has chemistry with his team..... and its hard to develop that between the trade deadline and the playoffs....

Actually, there was just an article in ESPN the Mag about how Rondo doesn't have chemistry with his team. (As in, Doc Rivers: "Do you think your teammates like playing with you?")

Not that that makes it true. Just sayin... He seems (based only on this one article) to have a hard time fitting in with people.

there have literally been a dozen Rondo threads active on the Celtics realGM site......in the last week...

they discuss Rondo up down and sideways.....

If you are really interested in rondo situation, I recommend reading them.....

Between they answer every Rondo question "under that sun".

[stiles21]

Rondo has chemistry with his team..... and its hard to develop that between the trade deadline and the playoffs....

Actually, there was just an article in ESPN the Mag about how Rondo doesn't have chemistry with his team. (As in, Doc Rivers: "Do you think your teammates like playing with you?")

Not that that makes it true. Just sayin... He seems (based only on this one article) to have a hard time fitting in with people.

I can't tell you whats going on in the Celtics locker room but if you watch their games Rondo definitely has chemistry with the rest of the team on the court and thats all that really matters.

[Krapinsky]

Sessions cannot be traded until Dec. 15, so by then I imagine he will be very much available. I think Kahn would easily part for him for either a) an expiring and a decent first rounder, or b) as part of a package that brings back a quality wing player.

He would seem like a great fit in Philadelphia as a Miller replacement, since Jrue is most liekly a few years away anyway. Anyway we could pry away Thad Young?

Thad and Greene for Gomes, Sessions and Utah 1st?

Sessions for Young..... not a bad idea... have to think about it more...

Young is a scorer.......but not a great passer (1.1 ast/gm last year) , and his rebounding was down last year (5 reb to 4 reb/gm), his defense was also weak -- 2.5 def. win share, [was 2.0 year before]

Wins Produced 2.2, wp48 0.040 [below average]
PER 15.3 [just above average]

I think you're overlooking Young quite a bit here. He was 20 throughout last season; he's added a thee pointer to his game; and, he fits a need. If you're expecting on getting more for a player that recently couldn't get the mid level on the free agent market, than I don't know what to say.

Year before (2007-2008):
Wins Produced: 3.2, wp48 0.099 [average]
PER 16.5

Neither Green nor Young is expiring......

Again its worth considering......after some thought, I think Young is more flash than substance.

[Wolves2011]

Sessions cannot be traded until Dec. 15, so by then I imagine he will be very much available. I think Kahn would easily part for him for either a) an expiring and a decent first rounder, or b) as part of a package that brings back a quality wing player.

He would seem like a great fit in Philadelphia as a Miller replacement, since Jrue is most liekly a few years away anyway. Anyway we could pry away Thad Young?

Thad and Greene for Gomes, Sessions and Utah 1st?

for Young..... not a bad idea... have to think about it more...

Young is a scorer.......but not a great passer (1.1 ast/gm last year) , and his rebounding was down last year (5 reb to 4 reb/gm), his defense was also weak -- 2.5 def. win share, [was 2.0 year before]

Wins Produced 2.2, wp48 0.040 [below average]
PER 15.3 [just above average]

I think you're overlooking Young quite a bit here. He was 20 throughout last season; he's added a thee pointer to his game; and, he fits a need. If you're expecting on getting more for a player that recently couldn't get the mid level on the free agent market, than I don't know what to say.

before (2007-2008):
Wins Produced: 3.2, wp48 0.099 [average]
PER 16.5

Neither Green nor Young is expiring......

Again its worth considering......after some thought, I think Young is more flash than substance.

/quote]

I had to think about it.... I'm not absolutely certain.Even if we are not going to use Sessions, because Rambis won't play him at SG, I'm not sure its the right move. I was thinking, not so much about what we give up Sessions and Gomes, as the "opportunity cost". Could we sign a $15 million free agent next summer, if we have Young and Green? I think not. Moving Sessions & Gomes for expiring contracts lets us get a "top notch" free agent next summer.

Young also slipped in performance last year. I still also have hopes that Sessions can play some Shooting Guard. I just want Rambis to give him playing time there, to give it a try. I like Sessions upside more than Young, if we are going to keep someone.

[John Doe [MIN]]

I like this idea all around.

For the Wolves, if they can't give Sessions 25 minutes a night minimum, they should look to trade him. If two straight teams refuse to give him real minutes, his reputation as a young guy with potential will decline, and he'll quickly lose value.

For Boston, I think Rondo is really overrated. With Sessions, you'd lose a little rebounds (ok.) and maybe steals, but in that system I honestly believe he could put up the exact same points, assists, and scoring efficiency numbers Rondo does now. He's a good defender too. He may have less flash, but with their system, I doubt they'd feel the loss that much.

[Wolves2011]

I like this idea all around.

For the Wolves, if they can't give Sessions 25 minutes a night minimum, they should look to trade him. If two straight teams refuse to give him real minutes, his reputation as a young guy with potential will decline, and he'll quickly lose value.

For Boston, I think Rondo is really overrated. With Sessions, you'd lose a little rebounds (ok.) and maybe steals, but in that system I honestly believe he could put up the exact same points, assists, and scoring efficiency numbers Rondo does now. He's a good defender too. He may have less flash, but with their system, I doubt they'd feel the loss that much.

I'm not debating Rondo's value again......there are many Rondo strings on the Celtics site that have been active in the last week or so. Go there and read those discussions. We covered every possible permutation.

I happen to think Sessions is also a very talented PG and possibly at SG [about half his playing time last year was at SG, when he was ranked 11th (among PG) in PER and about 9th (again among PG) in Wins Produced] Just wish Rambis would give him playing time at SG, so we can see what he can do playing with Sessions.

I think Rambis is worried about the defense of a Flynn/Sessions back court. But Sessions is an above average defender and Flynn has potential as well. They would be on the short side, but they would have a speed advantage.

While Flynn hasn't played without the ball, Sessions has when he played SG to Ridnour's PG. Rambo..... PLAY FLYNN & SESSIONS TOGETHER!!!

[Worm Guts]

Maybe I'm overrating Thad, butI think if we want Thad or Iggy, we'd have to offer Flynn not Sessions. If Kahn is confident that Rubio will be here in two years and Flynn has enough trade value to pull in a top wing, I think it makes sense to trade Flynn and use Sessions as the starter until Rubio gets here.

[revprodeji]

The only reasonable Sessions for Thad deal i saw had us taking Dally's contract also.