Championships: Won by Hall of Famers & Defensive Superstars

[Danimals]

Championships: Won by Hall of Famers(coaches and players) and Defensive Superstars.

As fans of the Timberwolves we have been having endless discussions about what "we" need to do in order to contend for a championship. As I see it, the Timberwolves have truly been contenders in one season. We lost in the Western Conference Finals. I would like to discuss true contenders and how they are built. Then apply these ideas to the Timberwolves future.

I'm going to look at 1989 -2009, a 20 year period.

Coaches:
In the past 20 years only Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Greg Popovich, Chuck Daly, Rudy Tomjanovich,Larry Brown, and Doc Rivers have won. Thats 7 guys over 20 years. In that same time 9 other coaches made the Finals but did not win. I think its safe to say there is a such thing as a championship caliber coach. Is Rambis one? We are hoping.

Hall of Fame Players:
89&90 Piston- Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars
91-93 Bulls- Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen
94-95 Rockets- Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler
96-98 Bulls- Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen
99 Spurs- David Robinson
03 Spurs- David Robinson

Future Hall of Fame Players:
99 Spurs- Tim Duncan
00-02 Lakers- Shaquille Oneal and Kobe Bryant
03 Spurs- Tim Duncan
04 Pistons- ?????
05 Spurs- Tim Duncan
06 Heat- Shaquille Oneal
07 Spurs- Tim Duncan
08 Celtics- Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen
09 Lakers- Kobe Bryant

Every team but the 04 Pistons(one of those guys could still get in) to win a championship in the past 20 years has had aleast one hall of fame player and usually two. There is no other way to win it all.

Defensive Superstars:
Every team to win has had a defensive beast or two on the court, besides their hall of famers, such as: Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, Bruce Bowen, Ben Wallace, James Posey, and Trevor Ariza to name just a few. You can not win without defense. Period.

So how do I apply this to our Timberwolves?
When I look at our roster, I am not convinced we have any future hall of fame players. Jefferson has the offensive potential to be a hall of famer, but he never will be unless he dramatically improves his defense and passing. I think Brewer has the potential to be a defensive superstar, but he is far from realizing it.

On another note, I think we posses two other potential players who are needed on championship teams. I think Flynn has the leadership ability to take a team to the top. He needs to combine that with consistent play on the court. I think Love is the glue guy. The guy who does all the little things and raises the level of team hustle. He needs to show consistent improvement. I also think we have some championship level bench players.

What does it all mean?
None of our players should be untouchable. We need to do everything we can to get hall of fame caliber players if we ever want to win a championship. We had one once, KG and we were true contenders one year. The problem was that KG had to fill every role. He was our leader, our defensive superstar, our go to scorer, etc. He just didn't have enough help.

The problem with McHale was that he did not realize you can only win it all with the best players. All the good players in the league won't get you a championship. I hope Kahn knows this. I think he does, but can he make it happen?

I didn't even mention luck...

What say you?



Also, check out this article:
http://www.82games.com/dennis.htm
its a little old, but its good.

[revprodeji]

One of the first things Rambis said when he took over was that Jefferson is a #2 and love a #4 on a championship team. I think Flynn could be the #3 but we are missing that #1 wing player. Maybe that is Rubio? Who knows. right now we bring in talent and hope something sticks.

The dominate dynasties of the past are done. I think the superstars of today are not as super. 40% of building a good team is getting lucky in draft/trade.


part of what made those HoF players HoF was winning. plenty of similar skilled players have not won. (malone/stockton/payton/r.miller/barkley/ewing/zo/mullen/)

Who would we consider the elite among under 26?

[B Calrissian]

Didn't Zo and Payton win with the Heat?

[revprodeji]

If they did, it does not count (Adam Morrison rule)

[Klomp]

I think Flynn could be the #3 but we are missing that #1 wing player. Maybe that is Rubio? Who knows.

I think we will use Rubio as trade bait.

Rubio for:
NY #1? (They loved Rubio, and might not want to commit to a higher salary for a top rookie pick.)
(LAC) Gordon/Jordan

Those are the best two ideas I can come up with.

[Klomp]

If they did, it does not count (Adam Morrison rule)

True but you did say future HOFers, and yes they did both win one in Miami

[Danimals]

I remember what Kahn said about Al being a #2 and Love a #4, and I agree. I also agree Flynn has the potential to be our #3. I also think Brewer could be our number #5. So I guess we need to ask who we consider to be the young elite(#1 option) wings? I don't think there are many: Lebron, Wade, Melo, Roy, and Durant. So there it is, we must get one of these 5 or wait for someone else to develop to their level. Maybe we should plan for the free agency period of 2011 and make a hard run at Melo or Durant...

[Klomp]

Does Evan Turner have the potential to be a number one option?

[revprodeji]

Just as much as Roy.

Durant==most overrated player in the league.

Here is my issue. Lets say Den wins a ship. Is Melo now a HoF? What if Lebron never does? What if oRlando? does that mean howard is an Hof? Sometimes the chip comes before the HoF status.

(klomp---NY does not have their #1. Utah does. Which is why we want NY to win games so Utah does not get a stud)

[Klomp]

(klomp---NY does not have their #1. Utah does. Which is why we want NY to win games so Utah does not get a stud)

Dangit, I forgot.

[revprodeji]

if they had their #1 then maybe a deal could have been done at draft time. But that was a big factor.

[Wolves2011]

We had one once, KG and we were true contenders one year. The problem was that KG had to fill every role. He was our leader, our defensive superstar, our go to scorer, etc. He just didn't have enough help.The problem with McHale was that he did not realize you can only win it all with the best players.

I agree with much of what you said. But McHale had one underlying problem. McHale gave KG that first HUGE contract. I forget the year but Luxury taxes were negotiated as soon as possible after KG's payday. With KG making such a huge portion of the salary cap, peaking at 64% it was very hard to surround him with suitable talent. The only way to do it was to get them young, like Marbury or to get good players as they got older and willing to give a discount. But in both cases it really didn't work because other teammates got jealous of KG's huge salary and wanted to "share the riches".

98-99 14 million
99-00 16.8
00-01 19.6
01-02 22.4
02-03 25.2
03-04 28.0

NBA salary cap & KG's percentage

98-99 30 m - 47%
99-00 34 m - 49%
00-01 35.3 - 56%
01-02 42.5 - 53%
02-03 40.3 - 63%
03-04 43.8 - 64%

luxury tax

02-03 52.9 m
03-04 54.6 m


*** By the way, I'm not saying that McHale and crew didn't make lots of other mistakes..Joe Smith being a tragic attempt to circumvent the salary cap rules....giving up Ray Allen and Chauncy Billups, Foye & Roy being an important one, and of course others. But if McHale hadn't tied his hands using such a huge portion of his cap on KG, he could have brought in "high capability free agents" to complement KG. We see what KG can do when he is playing with other allstars and they are happy [rather than complaining about their salaries.] If McHale hadn't given KG so a large contract McHale could have gotten a couple of "happy" allstars in Minnesota. But could McHale have "kept" KG in Minnesota if he hadn't given him that huge contract? We'll never know.

[Wolves2011]

I remember what Kahn said about Al being a #2 and Love a #4, and I agree. I also agree Flynn has the potential to be our #3. I also think Brewer could be our number #5. So I guess we need to ask who we consider to be the young elite(#1 option) wings? I don't think there are many: Lebron, Wade, Melo, Roy, and Durant. So there it is, we must get one of these 5 or wait for someone else to develop to their level. Maybe we should plan for the free agency period of 2011 and make a hard run at Melo or Durant...

I'd add Chris Paul to your list of young superstars. He has all the stats and he also hits clutch shots. It means trading out Flynn and {other things} for Chris Paul, but Chris Paul might be the most "getable" of the great players in my view. New Orleans isn't going to win a championship with their current lineup. If we gave them Flynn, our #1 and Utah pick that possibly could get Chris Paul.

If we had Chris Paul he is our #1, Jefferson as a #2, no #3 (but Love could be good enough for #3), Love at #4 and still need #5. But it much easier to finds #3's or #5's than #1's, if you consider Chris Paul to be a #1 like me.

We still have Rubio and Pekovic rights plus Charlotte pick to get one or two more wings. We also still have much of our salary cap space, since we don't need to pay a high lottery pick, nor Flynn and late 1st round pick. [I'm estimating over $12 million in available cap space. Correct me if I'm wrong.]

We should be able to turn Rubio into a #3 level wing. We might even be able to get a #5 level wing with Charlotte pick, or lets hope Brewer or Ellington pans out for #5 spot.

[casey]

98-99 14 million
99-00 16.8
00-01 19.6
01-02 22.4
02-03 25.2
03-04 28.0

98-99 $15.0
99-00 $17.1
00-01 $19.3
01-02 $21.4
02-03 $23.6
03-04 $26.5

That got 3 championships.

[Wolves2011]

98-99 $15.0
99-00 $17.1
00-01 $19.3
01-02 $21.4
02-03 $23.6
03-04 $26.5

That got 3 championships.

All the Wolves had to attract free agents was the MLE (about same as avg player salary):

98-99 $3.0 m
99-00 $3.6
00-01 $4.2
01-02 $4.5
02-03 $4.5
03-04 $4.9


Yes, but shaq already had his Tonto.... and a good one in Bryant. They didn't have to "attract Bryant", but not be able to pay him, because they didn't have CAP SPACE. Could Los Angeles have attracted a Bryant when he was a star player with the MLE, NO!! If Marbury hadn't left and had played up to his hype, maybe KG would have had his partner. [Or if McHale had been smart enough to keep Ray Allen or Chancy Billups] But with KG in his prime, Minnesota was "too good" get get high draft picks, and couldn't attract free agents because we were OVER THE SALARY CAP.

It is also easier to attract role players to Los Angeles than Minnesota, because of the other fringe benefits, sun, surf, lots of "snuggles", and the flair of Hollywood..... ....sad but true!

[Calinks]

One of the first things Rambis said when he took over was that Jefferson is a #2 and love a #4 on a championship team. I think Flynn could be the #3 but we are missing that #1 wing player. Maybe that is Rubio? Who knows. right now we bring in talent and hope something sticks.

The dominate dynasties of the past are done. I think the superstars of today are not as super. 40% of building a good team is getting lucky in draft/trade.


part of what made those HoF players HoF was winning. plenty of similar skilled players have not won. (malone/stockton/payton/r.miller/barkley/ewing/zo/mullen/)

Who would we consider the elite among under 26?

You mean Kahn.

[john2jer]

Paul Pierce, that is all. Now I'll go back and actually read the thread.

[Devilzsidewalk]

no doubt, you need the best to win. Kahn is correct at the moment in saying Jefferson is a #2 guy because right now when the Wolves step on the court and you ask "wheres the big point differential in our favor coming from?", Big Al is our guy over the season, but on a specific night if a guy like Brook Lopez - damn good center no doubt - can outplay Al or even just cancel out Al, then what do you really have? You have one of the many good players in the NBA, so nothing is setting you apart. You can try to get several of those kind of guys like the '04 Pistons and if they can capture that kind of team swagger, maybe you can pull it off.
Otherwise you need to have at least 1 guy where you know that although the other team has a good player, an allstar, our guy is gonna be even better. We can't say that about any of our guys yet, it's yet to be proven on the court consistently.

[Danimals]

I want to respond to a couple things and add a bit more.

First off I do consider Chris Paul a #1. I didn't mention him because I was strictly speaking of wings.

I personally feel there are about 2 or 3 young players at each position who have hall of fame POTENTIAL, maybe more.
1- Paul and Williams (Rose?)
2- Wade and Roy (?)
3- Lebron and Carmelo (Durant?)
4- Amare and Bosh (?)
5- Dwight and Big Al (?)
I feel 100% sure of only 2 of these guys making the hall of fame. Everyone else has a lot to prove to make it to the hall.

Secondly, Yes winning a ring has a huge effect on weather or not a player gets in the hall. You need hall of fame caliber players to contend and if you have the coach, the defensive superstar, the chemistry, and just a bit of luck; you can win the championship and that potential probably becomes a reality for those players.

I see three ways to build a champion. Like Boston, trade young assets for proven HOF's. Use your assets to collect young players with the potential. Or get lucky in the draft or a trade.

I think the Wolves are in a great position because we have one young player with all the potential.

If I had my way, we would do everything possible to get Carmelo Anthony. I know he still has a lot to prove on defense and as a leader, but I think he fits us perfectly. Hopefully the Nuggets fall off significantly this year. I would trade Rubio, Pekovic, draft picks, prospects and cap space to get him.

I'd like to see this roster:
1- Flynn -Sessions
2- Brewer -a vet two way wing, who can space the floor and get nasty (a Raja Bell type)
3- Melo -Gomes
4- Love -Hollins
5- Al -a vet big, who is a winner and prides himself on Defense (a Ben Wallace type)

So now you know what I want...

[Steve_Holiday]

[Or if McHale had been smart enough to keep Ray Allen or Chancy Billups]

I know this is off-topic, but seeing this stuff is frustrating...

These were not McHale blunders. Stephon > Ray at draft time and for several years afterwards. No one knew he was crazy.

Healthy Terrell Brandon > Chauncey Billups in 2000-2001. Playing time was the issue for Billups, not a lack of $ in the offer from the Ostrich.

McHale gambled and lost, but his bets were good.