Min - Mem

[shrink]

Well, I certainly hope you find the time to continue posting, because you're one of the most valuable posters here. You have continually provided insight on internal areas of the game that don't get the media they deserve, and add a more "real" perspective to RealGM.

[Wolves2011]

Wolves2011 clearly has an agenda and should be banned from this forum until he actually wants to debate the merits of Dave Berri's material rather than spitting it out as if it were facts. There's a reason NBA teams don't use win's produced.

What makes you think NBA teams don't use wins produced?

I debated berri's material last week and the week before, on the wolves and celtics sites.....read some of the older posts. If you want to debate it again have at it.

[mnWI]

Wolves2011 clearly has an agenda and should be banned from this forum until he actually wants to debate the merits of Dave Berri's material rather than spitting it out as if it were facts. There's a reason NBA teams don't use win's produced.

What makes you think NBA teams don't use wins produced?

I debated berri's material last week and the week before, on the wolves and celtics sites.....read some of the older posts. If you want to debate it again have at it.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=949117&start=45

[Wolves2011]

Wolves2011 clearly has an agenda and should be banned from this forum until he actually wants to debate the merits of Dave Berri's material rather than spitting it out as if it were facts. There's a reason NBA teams don't use win's produced.

What makes you think NBA teams don't use wins produced?

I debated berri's material last week and the week before, on the wolves and celtics sites.....read some of the older posts. If you want to debate it again have at it.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=949117&start=45

If you want to debate something make your argument.

I'll be happy to respond... was in the middle of some long drawn out discussions on Rondo last week, so sorry didn't see your postings.

Make your argument.....why do you think berri stats material, [and I'm assuming others that are somewhat similar like PER, win share, efficiency rating etc] don't work.

[By the way, I'm not saying any of these methods are the be all and end all, either. But they are the best method available when combined with other information. ]

Looking at things like wins produced is better than just looking at scoring averages, which is all many fans look at....but these statistical methods like all models of real performance are not "perfect". They have flaws....

Now tell me whats wrong with wins produced....and more importantly .... whats BETTER?

If you can't give me something thats better, you make my point for me....

[mnWI]

The reason I keep linking you to that thread is that I have made an argument against Wins Produced and gave a better system (adjusted plus minus) which every NBA front office uses in some form (if you're wondering, I deal with NBA front offices daily and nobody I know uses wins produced). You damn well know who I am since we got into the argument about the shooting of JR Giddens, and you have been ignoring my posts in the linked thread for the past 3 weeks. You know damn well that you've been ignoring it too.

[GopherIt!]

YOU KNOW DAMN RIGHT!

[Esohny]

From Yahoo:

After making some progress in negotiations in recent days, the Memphis Grizzlies must submit a final proposal to Rudy Gay’s(notes) representatives on Monday for a chance to reach an agreement on a contract extension, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Gay, a 6-foot-9 forward, has been seeking an extension comparable to the five-year, $60 million deal the Indiana Pacers gave Danny Granger(notes) last year. Memphis has offered $50 million over five years in recent days, sources said, but will still need to close the gap before the NBA’s deadline on Monday.

This is the obvious problem with acquiring Gay via trade. 12 million/year is a heck of a lot to gamble on his talent without giving up assets as well.

[cpfsf]

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/62519/20091102/mayo_rudy_gay_have_to_be_separated/

Memphis teammates O.J. Mayo and Rudy Gay got into a shouting match near the end of the team's loss to Denver on Sunday night. The incident took place during a timeout late in the fourth quarter. Gay took exception when Mayo made a strong comment about his teammates not getting back on defense, according to the Memphis Commercial Appeal. Grizzlies coach Lionel Hollins and a number of players stepped in to separate the two players. "I told them to shut up so we can get on with the rest of the game," Hollins said. "It's not about you. It's about us trying to win a game. We can't stand here with you guys going back and forth. It was a heat-of-the-moment incident. They get along. They're just competitors. They both want to succeed." After the game both Mayo and Gay said that the incident was "nothing."

I think Gay would be a good fit on this team if we DIDN'T already have Jefferson.

Agreed. I think with Jefferson and Love in the frontcourt, we need a SF that can score AND play defense.

Gay, Jefferson, Flynn. I would hate that if all 3 started and I think only Rubio could make it work.

[karch34]

I like Gay, but have to agree with Esohny that $12million per is high and a huge gamble.

As far as statistics, some posters like to use them more than others. I was on a Cubs board that drove me nuts with the Billy Beane wannabes that used that as their only argument because you could tell they'd never seen the player(s) play. Not saying that is the case with anyone on this board. I will say with most of these debates all your going to accomplish is using up a lot of your time.

[Dewey]

A player averages 17 and 7 and we're suppose to believe he does not have good work ethic?

He can't play defense? No one is daying he's a good defender, but I'd like to know bad he is compared to the average NBA SF ... this topic seems mostly based on personal opinions and that's fine. I'm not sold on Gay for the money, but he is likely better than our current alternatives at SF.

Gomes is an average NBA forward (tweener), mediocre athleticism, suspect defense, and his intensity lacks consistency ... I gotta think he's looking over his shoulder as much as any Wolves player. His only saving grace is his reasonable contract.

[Worm Guts]

If Memphis is going to pay him 12 million dollars, I'd assume they have little interest in trading him.

[shrink]

If Gay can get 5 years, $50 mil deal from MEM, he better grab it.

Gay's stats went down last year when Mayo arrived, and the addition of Zach and Iverson this year probably means he'll get the ball even less. I can't imagine this will improve his attitude. Next Summer, I think teams with money will want to spend it on more reliable talent, and Gay will be waiting and waiting as this money dries up. I think he could end up like Sessions, and have to accept a deal in the $7-8 mil starting range if he's not careful.

[Wolves2011]

The reason I keep linking you to that thread is that I have made an argument against Wins Produced and gave a better system (adjusted plus minus) which every NBA front office uses in some form (if you're wondering, I deal with NBA front offices daily and nobody I know uses wins produced). You damn well know who I am since we got into the argument about the shooting of JR Giddens, and you have been ignoring my posts in the linked thread for the past 3 weeks. You know damn well that you've been ignoring it too.

JR Giddens, with me? Don't remember ever posting about JR Giddens, but I've had over 400 posts in the last month, so don't take that personally.

I've set up a link, for a debate if you want one.

Let me just say, that I like plus minus in some instances but it hard to use when comparing players across teams. It also produces many funky results.

From 82 games:
Telfair in 2008-9 vs Telfair in 2007-8 "on court vs off court"

plus 6.5 vs Minus 6.1 - he had that big a swing in one season?
The stat can sometimes be flaky, at least in my view.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708MIN.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809MIN.HTM

[Esohny]

Rudy Gay will be a RFA.

This of course opens the door for a recreation of the end of the sappy football/reach for the stars movie "Rudy," with Rudy Gay in the role of Samwise Gamgee. When as Gay gets inserted into the lineup late in the 2nd game in a back to back with the Los Angeles Clippers, Al Jefferson starts up a chant of "Ru-dee! Ru-dee!" with the target center crowd gradually joining in. Rudy Gay then makes a 3 as time expires, and although the Wolves were already up by 15 pts, his teammates carry him off the floor. His estranged brother, Bartimus Gay, gives him a thumbs up from the stands.

[shrink]

Esohny, I like the way you think. I don't understand it, but I like it.

Here's the straight poop from no better a source for it.

We’ve agreed to not agree,” Austin said. “It will not happen. We looked at different ways we might try to get something done and we weren’t able to agree.”

Austin wouldn’t say how far apart the sides are but re-iterated that his client is comfortable with the outcome.

“We didn’t make a deal. Whether you’re $10 off or $100 million off, if you can’t make a deal it’s irrelevant,” Austin said. “We never agreed on a deal so obviously we weren’t close.”

Austin disputed the salary figures that have been reported. He called some of the speculation “absurd” as it relates to what Gay asked for.

“A lot of numbers I’ve read I’m trying to figure out where they come from,” Austin said of reports that Gay sought a five-year deal worth $50-$60 million.

I don't think 5 years at $50 mil was ever on the table.

If it was and Austin told Rudy to try for more, then I think they both really messed up