"Captain" Joe

[JoshB914]

I just ran across this quote from Sekou's AJC report on the loss last night from JJ.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks ... 82411.html

"I thought we were past this but I was wrong," said Johnson, who torched the Lakers for 18 points in the first nine minutes of the game and finished with a team-high 27. "We still complain too much. To be honest, we just didn't have the effort needed to do this right. If shots aren't falling we stand around. We think offense more than defense. And you're not going to win in this league like that."

When will Joe learn? He continues to call this team out for being soft and inconsistent. But who is the captain? Why can't Joe be more vocal with his teammates during games and on the practice floor rather than voicing his concerns to the media? If you are going to point fingers for this type of stuff the first thing you must question is the leadership, maybe Joe should take a look in the mirror when calling his team out for being soft.

It is beyond me that our supposed leader continues to publicly call out his teammates, and now he's done it after just third game of the season. Statements like this from your best player captain can kill a team's psyche.

Just to clarify, I'm not ripping Joe the player who was quite good last night. I'm just very frustrated that he continues to show a lack of composure and direction regarding the team as a whole, and those are things we need to get from our best player.

[HoopsGuru25]

That's a dumb thing for the best player on the team to say to the media..but unfortunately he's right. The Hawks are mentally soft/weak. They fold anytime they face adversity on the road and it's gotten pretty old. I just wish he would have said the same thing to the team behind closed doors instead of airing them out to the media.

[tontoz]

I just ran across this quote from Sekou's AJC report on the loss last night from JJ.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks ... 82411.html

"I thought we were past this but I was wrong," said Johnson, who torched the Lakers for 18 points in the first nine minutes of the game and finished with a team-high 27. "We still complain too much. To be honest, we just didn't have the effort needed to do this right. If shots aren't falling we stand around. We think offense more than defense. And you're not going to win in this league like that."

When will Joe learn? He continues to call this team out for being soft and inconsistent. But who is the captain? Why can't Joe be more vocal with his teammates during games and on the practice floor rather than voicing his concerns to the media?

Please clafiy how you know what Joe is saying during games, in the huddle and on the practice floor.

Personally i think this team needs to be called out. He did the same thing in the last preseason game and it obviously didn't hurt. I couldn't count the number of times Jordan publicly called out his teamates.

[parson]

Joe got hot in the 1st, then only scored 9 points the rest of the way, despite continuing to take the largest # of shots. Give me a break, he can't say he manned up in the crunch.

It was a team-wide lay down. When the Lakers started hacking away in the 3rd qtr, we stood around and hoped for the refs to call the fouls.

I still want to see us feed the frontcourt before we condemn them for not raising their game. The guards took the lion's share of shots -- let THEM answer for not manning up.

One more thing: Crawford is going to be hit-or-miss as our version of Vinnie Johnson (Mr. Microwave). As the old poem goes, when Crawford's good, he's very, very good; but when he's bad, he's horrid.

[tontoz]

Joe got hot in the 1st, then only scored 9 points the rest of the way, despite continuing to take the largest # of shots. Give me a break, he can't say he manned up in the crunch.

It was a team-wide lay down. When the Lakers started hacking away in the 3rd qtr, we stood around and hoped for the refs to call the fouls.

I still want to see us feed the frontcourt before we condemn them for not raising their game. The guards took the lion's share of shots -- let THEM answer for not manning up.

One more thing: Crawford is going to be hit-or-miss as our version of Vinnie Johnson (Mr. Microwave). As the old poem goes, when Crawford's good, he's very, very good; but when he's bad, he's horrid.

Smith was 3-10, Marvin 1-6, Horford 3-8. That is a combined 7-24 which doesn't argue for more looks. Smith was settling for outside shots, throwing the ball away (5 turnovers) and as usual didn't hit the boards. Marvin looked scared to do anything and Horford didn't know what to do with Bynum.

The guards are the only ones who showed up. JJ stopped hitting from the field but still got to the line 10 times. If 27 pts (and 9 rebounds) on 16 shot attempts against the champs isn't manning up then i don't know what is. Our frontcourt got clowned.

[FCNATL85]

I can see JJ 's frustration: while he was dealing with a top 3 MVP candidate, the front court could have been taking advantage of Gasol absence.
Despite of a terrible 3rd quarter (and thanks to a good Teague at the end of the game) we only finished 8 pts behind. That game should have stayed within reach without terrible decision making in the 3rd. I think that's what JJ mean when saying that we are soft.
It can't hurt a team who publically said that they have higher expectations...

[BAMABIRD]

He did say WE, so he's pointing fingers at himself as well. Personally I don't have a problem with the things Joe said. He's been with those young guys long enough to know the best way to get a message across to them.

[parson]

Smith was 3-10, Marvin 1-6, Horford 3-8. That is a combined 7-24 which doesn't argue for more looks. Smith was settling for outside shots, throwing the ball away (5 turnovers) and as usual didn't hit the boards. Marvin looked scared to do anything and Horford didn't know what to do with Bynum.

The guards are the only ones who showed up. JJ stopped hitting from the field but still got to the line 10 times. If 27 pts (and 9 rebounds) on 16 shot attempts against the champs isn't manning up then i don't know what is. Our frontcourt got clowned.

Come on, 'toz, you know I was talking about PASSING the ball down to our frontcourt. What you're talking about is our guards saying, "Here, I'm finished with the ball. YOU take the last-second shot."

Look carefully at your own words: you said Smoove's "was settling for outside shots." Here we see that our PF is having to get the ball out on the perimeter -- not one pass INTO the interior to him.

Our guards do not pass the ball in any type of programmed way; they simply give the other guys "a turn" every once in awhile.

You're telling me that our frontcourt is only shooting 7-24; I'm pointing out that Joe and Bibby control the ball and are ensuring that our frontcourt only shoots those type of lousy shots that create poor percentages such as 7 for 24.

As for Joe manning up, please note I said he scored the bulk of his points in the 1st qtr. You said if his game total "isn't manning up then i don't know what is," ignoring that I said he didn't man up in the clutch. So let me ask you:
Did Joe man up in the 2nd quarter?
Did Joe man up in the 3rd quarter?
Did Joe man up in the 4th quarter?

[johnny878]

the problem with the hawks so far is taht Josh smith is leading the team in assist. the hawks guards have been pretty crap so far at setting up their team mates. marvin has played like **** too

[tontoz]

Smith was 3-10, Marvin 1-6, Horford 3-8. That is a combined 7-24 which doesn't argue for more looks. Smith was settling for outside shots, throwing the ball away (5 turnovers) and as usual didn't hit the boards. Marvin looked scared to do anything and Horford didn't know what to do with Bynum.

The guards are the only ones who showed up. JJ stopped hitting from the field but still got to the line 10 times. If 27 pts (and 9 rebounds) on 16 shot attempts against the champs isn't manning up then i don't know what is. Our frontcourt got clowned.

Come on, 'toz, you know I was talking about PASSING the ball down to our frontcourt. What you're talking about is our guards saying, "Here, I'm finished with the ball. YOU take the last-second shot."

Look carefully at your own words: you said Smoove's "was settling for outside shots." Here we see that our PF is having to get the ball out on the perimeter -- not one pass INTO the interior to him.

Our guards do not pass the ball in any type of programmed way; they simply give the other guys "a turn" every once in awhile.

You're telling me that our frontcourt is only shooting 7-24; I'm pointing out that Joe and Bibby control the ball and are ensuring that our frontcourt only shoots those type of lousy shots that create poor percentages such as 7 for 24.

As for Joe manning up, please note I said he scored the bulk of his points in the 1st qtr. You said if his game total "isn't manning up then i don't know what is," ignoring that I said he didn't man up in the clutch. So let me ask you:
Did Joe man up in the 2nd quarter?
Did Joe man up in the 3rd quarter?
Did Joe man up in the 4th quarter?

JJ was on the bench for nearly half of the second quarter and got extended bench time in the 2nd half as well when the game got out of hand. When he did get in he had Artest on him after lighting up Kobe in the first quarter. JJ has maned up in the clutch time and again but there was no clutch time in this game.

Smith and Horford combined for 9 turnovers, 6 field goals and 1 foul shot attempt. That sucks. If we had fed them the ball much more they might have had as many turnovers as the entire Lakers team. JJ and Bibby combined for only 1 turnover and shot 50% between them. it is pretty clear who should have been handling the ball. JJ got to the line 10 times by himself yet Smith and Horford could only get their once?

LOL @ Smith "having to go to the perimeter" to get the ball. He goes out there because he is too stupid to realize that he can't shoot. he goes out there because he knows the defense won't be guarding him and he will be wide open.

And then there is Woody's "offensive system"...

[MaceCase]

Smith was 3-10, Marvin 1-6, Horford 3-8. That is a combined 7-24 which doesn't argue for more looks. Smith was settling for outside shots, throwing the ball away (5 turnovers) and as usual didn't hit the boards. Marvin looked scared to do anything and Horford didn't know what to do with Bynum.

The guards are the only ones who showed up. JJ stopped hitting from the field but still got to the line 10 times. If 27 pts (and 9 rebounds) on 16 shot attempts against the champs isn't manning up then i don't know what is. Our frontcourt got clowned.

Come on, 'toz, you know I was talking about PASSING the ball down to our frontcourt. What you're talking about is our guards saying, "Here, I'm finished with the ball. YOU take the last-second shot."

Look carefully at your own words: you said Smoove's "was settling for outside shots." Here we see that our PF is having to get the ball out on the perimeter -- not one pass INTO the interior to him.

Our guards do not pass the ball in any type of programmed way; they simply give the other guys "a turn" every once in awhile.

You're telling me that our frontcourt is only shooting 7-24; I'm pointing out that Joe and Bibby control the ball and are ensuring that our frontcourt only shoots those type of lousy shots that create poor percentages such as 7 for 24.

As for Joe manning up, please note I said he scored the bulk of his points in the 1st qtr. You said if his game total "isn't manning up then i don't know what is," ignoring that I said he didn't man up in the clutch. So let me ask you:
Did Joe man up in the 2nd quarter?
Did Joe man up in the 3rd quarter?
Did Joe man up in the 4th quarter?

JJ was on the bench for nearly half of the second quarter and got extended bench time in the 2nd half as well when the game got out of hand. When he did get in he had Artest on him after lighting up Kobe in the first quarter. JJ has maned up in the clutch time and again but there was no clutch time in this game.

Smith and Horford combined for 9 turnovers, 6 field goals and 1 foul shot attempt. That sucks. If we had fed them the ball much more they might have had as many turnovers as the entire Lakers team. JJ and Bibby combined for only 1 turnover and shot 50% between them. it is pretty clear who should have been handling the ball. JJ got to the line 10 times by himself yet Smith and Horford could only get their once?

LOL @ Smith "having to go to the perimeter" to get the ball. He goes out there because he is too stupid to realize that he can't shoot. he goes out there because he knows the defense won't be guarding him and he will be wide open.

And then there is Woody's "offensive system"...

Smoove was receiving the ball in the same spots on Sunday as he did the past two games just that for some reason instead of driving and kicking or going up and getting fouled like before he thought it best to put up a 20 footer......Yea I blame the guards for that.

[JoshB914]

He did say WE, so he's pointing fingers at himself as well. Personally I don't have a problem with the things Joe said. He's been with those young guys long enough to know the best way to get a message across to them.

This is where I disagree. Joe has been having these outbursts for a while now, and absolutely nothing has changed. I think it's quite clear he is not getting the message across, and complaining to the media surely isn't helping matters.

I just think JJ lets his frustrations get the best of him sometimes. I remember his profanity-laced tirade after Game 7 in the C's series, which was a bizarre moment to say the least considering we were totally outmatched and done a great job just to push the future champs as far as they did. In my opinion, his lack of patience and leadership continues to hurt the mental makeup of our team.

That being said, I think Joe and the rest of us should wait and see to see if this team finally "gets it." There were some positives to take out of the LAL game and hopefully we can build on them and put forth a good performance in Portland tonight.

[parson]

By the way, this is an age-old problem in the NBA. The guys who dominate the ball scream at the other guys, "Why can't y'all help some?" when tough times come. Only problem is, the other guys have gotten used to standing back and letting the stars take over.

If Joe wants the others to step up, he'll have to give up the ball sometimes and do it in a way as to help them shine. The 1st game was a great example: Horford was having a monster game, but Joe and Bibby decided at the end that Horford had had enough and now it was their turn. That was a game when they should have just fed the big guy down low and celebrated his success. The defense didn't take the ball away from Horford - his own backcourt did.

[tontoz]

By the way, this is an age-old problem in the NBA. The guys who dominate the ball scream at the other guys, "Why can't y'all help some?" when tough times come. Only problem is, the other guys have gotten used to standing back and letting the stars take over.

If Joe wants the others to step up, he'll have to give up the ball sometimes and do it in a way as to help them shine. The 1st game was a great example: Horford was having a monster game, but Joe and Bibby decided at the end that Horford had had enough and now it was their turn. That was a game when they should have just fed the big guy down low and celebrated his success. The defense didn't take the ball away from Horford - his own backcourt did.

If Horford and Smith weren't getting the ball against LA how did they manage to make 9 turnovers? Were JJ and Bibby forcing them to throw the ball away?

Do you really think JJ is the one calling the plays? Bibby?

JJ did step aside when Smith and Horford were getting off in the first game. But you know Woody is going to go ISO Joe at the end because that is what he always does. If it is a surprise to you then i have to wonder what you have been watching the last few years.

[MaceCase]

By the way, this is an age-old problem in the NBA. The guys who dominate the ball scream at the other guys, "Why can't y'all help some?" when tough times come. Only problem is, the other guys have gotten used to standing back and letting the stars take over.

If Joe wants the others to step up, he'll have to give up the ball sometimes and do it in a way as to help them shine. The 1st game was a great example: Horford was having a monster game, but Joe and Bibby decided at the end that Horford had had enough and now it was their turn. That was a game when they should have just fed the big guy down low and celebrated his success. The defense didn't take the ball away from Horford - his own backcourt did.

Horf took more shots in the second half of that game than he did the first, where exactly did the guards take the ball out of his hands?

[parson]

If Horford and Smith weren't getting the ball against LA how did they manage to make 9 turnovers? Were JJ and Bibby forcing them to throw the ball away?

There's a difference between getting the ball on your own and being fed the ball. Frontcourt players need to be fed. What good is a PG who doesn't get the ball to the big men where they can make plays (and why is T.J. Ford sitting so much on IND's bench? Can't we work something out for him?)?

Do you really think JJ is the one calling the plays? Bibby?

Actually, Bibby is supposedly calling his own plays. Remember Woodson saying just that last year? And when Joe has the ball on isolations, he can pass wherever he pleases. About that, I'm saying if Joe wants them to step up, he needs to get the ball to them in a place where they can do some damage, not just as the clock is running out.

JJ did step aside when Smith and Horford were getting off in the first game. But you know Woody is going to go ISO Joe at the end because that is what he always does. If it is a surprise to you then i have to wonder what you have been watching the last few years.

If you want Woodson to share the blame, I'll agree. I have to -- as I'm on record as saying I think Woodson's offense scheme is about what you'd see at a HS all-star game. But then again, it's Joe who's calling out his teammates.

[tontoz]

There's a difference between getting the ball on your own and being fed the ball. Frontcourt players need to be fed. What good is a PG who doesn't get the ball to the big men where they can make plays (and why is T.J. Ford sitting so much on IND's bench? Can't we work something out for him?)?

So they turned it over 9 times because they weren't being fed right? Man you sure do come up with some lame excuses.

Actually, Bibby is supposedly calling his own plays. Remember Woodson saying just that last year? And when Joe has the ball on isolations, he can pass wherever he pleases. About that, I'm saying if Joe wants them to step up, he needs to get the ball to them in a place where they can do some damage, not just as the clock is running out.

Horford and Smith were doing a lot of damage, to the Hawks. The Hawks have been playing in the same offense for years. It isn't like they suddenly change their offense for the Lakers game. As bad as they were playing i certainly would have been reluctant to pass to Smith and Horford.

If you want Woodson to share the blame, I'll agree. I have to -- as I'm on record as saying I think Woodson's offense scheme is about what you'd see at a HS all-star game. But then again, it's Joe who's calling out his teammates.

Joe said we, not them.

[parson]

So they turned it over 9 times because they weren't being fed right? Man you sure do come up with some lame excuses.

I happen to believe it's quite reasonable to think that giving the ball to big men out of their positions is poor basketball and leads to problems.

Horford and Smith were doing a lot of damage, to the Hawks. The Hawks have been playing in the same offense for years. It isn't like they suddenly change their offense for the Lakers game. As bad as they were playing i certainly would have been reluctant to pass to Smith and Horford.

That's just dumb. Please wait until you have a real argument before you make such an assertion the next time you post. We play some kind of poorly schemed, isolation-based offense almost entirely from the perimeter, putting our center and PF out of their proper positions and you're going to argue that that's the way we do things and that makes it OK?

Joe said we, not them.

Pretty much everyone took him to mean "them."

[tontoz]

That's just dumb. Please wait until you have a real argument before you make such an assertion the next time you post. We play some kind of poorly schemed, isolation-based offense almost entirely from the perimeter, putting our center and PF out of their proper positions and you're going to argue that that's the way we do things and that makes it OK?

So are you trying to say the offense they ran in LA is completely different from the one they ran against Indy and the Wizards? Now THAT is just dumb.

Smith and Horford were getting the ball in the same places they always get it they were just a train wreck. It isn't like Horford was getting the ball in the post all the time when he dropped 24/16. He took 9 midrange jumpers in that game.

Pretty much everyone took him to mean "them."

Funny how you say everyone just because that is the way you took it.

[evildallas]

It seems that Joe overreacts to each win and each loss, but if the result is the effort I saw against Portland on a more consistent basis then I can cope with it.