Warriors @ Kings, 11/8

[Smills91]

100% agree with this, and Cruel_Ruin, the assist numbers aren't telling the whole story. You rather should be looking at the points numbers of our guys, which looks more balanced across the roster, and you only have to physically look at one or two possessions to see how much better the ball's moving. It doesn't take a tremendous amount of basketball knowledge to see how much more fluid the offense has looked without Martin.

Well of course the scoring is more balanced! Find me a team who's scoring doesn't become more balanced when their leading scorer is out.

But again, this isn't addressing the main point I've been making. The team relied on Kevin in the first few games because it wasn't clear what else they had. To act like Kevin is just normally a ball-stopping player is to have a poor memory. He has been this way out of necessity.

It's just not more balanced, there's just more scoring from everybody in general to the point where we didn't even noticed Martin was missing. Martin taking 20+ shots per game was killing any chance of any sort of offensive chemistry developing. I knew all along our team was capable of this, and now that Martin's out and Westphal has organized us a bit, lo and behold what happens? Truth is that this team doesn't need Martin as much as some like to think. Maybe that wasn't true in the past, but it's certainly more true now. We've got options, so what's the harm in at least looking into them?

Kings were better without Chris Webber too...

[ICMTM]

To OGS's balanced attack theory:

I'd agree with it if it wasn't Kevin Martin. When Kevin has the ball he's going to throw it up. He's not looking to pass. He's not looking to get other people involved. It's Kevin and the rim. Furthermore I think the way Evans attacks the rim and has the ability to drive and dish players are playing off of that. Evans dishes A LOT. It doesn't always result in a shot either but it's movement. As Evans is looking more comfortable people are playing off of him. I don't think Kevin's teammates are looking to play off of him, but rather watch him.

Martin may be a good scorer, but he's not going to carry a team through a bad game on his own. He doesn't draw double teams either. Martin isn't a dynamic player. He's a very good scorer who does not get people involved.

[darkadun]

Martin may be a good scorer, but he's not going to carry a team through a bad game on his own. He doesn't draw double teams either. Martin isn't a dynamic player. He's a very good scorer who does not get people involved.

I don't totally disagree with you on this. It's true.

However, that can be worked on, and its not like Kev has this massive ego trip where he is going to do things his way to get "his points".

....also, there are times when the tide seems to be turning against us and its KMart who keeps us in the game. I think Kev has the right mentality this year and wants to become a better player. We'll see when he comes back, but having a too much talent is rarely a bad thing

[ICMTM]

Martin may be a good scorer, but he's not going to carry a team through a bad game on his own. He doesn't draw double teams either. Martin isn't a dynamic player. He's a very good scorer who does not get people involved.

I don't totally disagree with you on this. It's true.

However, that can be worked on, and its not like Kev has this massive ego trip where he is going to do things his way to get "his points".

....also, there are times when the tide seems to be turning against us and its KMart who keeps us in the game. I think Kev has the right mentality this year and wants to become a better player. We'll see when he comes back, but having a too much talent is rarely a bad thing

Given Kevin's age and years in the league I think this is who he is! I like Kevin Martin to a certain degree, but as the lead scorer it's not his role. When Martin tries to get 30 on his own, which that has been his game since Artest left, he isn't the same player as when he gets his points in the flow of the offense.

[darkadun]

Martin may be a good scorer, but he's not going to carry a team through a bad game on his own. He doesn't draw double teams either. Martin isn't a dynamic player. He's a very good scorer who does not get people involved.

I don't totally disagree with you on this. It's true.

However, that can be worked on, and its not like Kev has this massive ego trip where he is going to do things his way to get "his points".

....also, there are times when the tide seems to be turning against us and its KMart who keeps us in the game. I think Kev has the right mentality this year and wants to become a better player. We'll see when he comes back, but having a too much talent is rarely a bad thing

Given Kevin's age and years in the league I think this is who he is! I like Kevin Martin to a certain degree, but as the lead scorer it's not his role. When Martin tries to get 30 on his own, which that has been his game since Artest left, he isn't the same player as when he gets his points in the flow of the offense.

I get what your saying, but past year or two he's had to do it on his own. Now that we have good coaching and players who can contribute, lets see if Martin can play within the team. If he doesn't then it will be worrysome.

[Wolfay]

Kings were better without Chris Webber too...

Jeez, if you're going to come up with fallacious arguments and not anything constructive, than I rather you not say anything at all Smills.

Anyway, I've made my position clear. Martin has been a ball-stopper and it's been killing us. We seem to be developing some chemistry so I hope when Martin comes back, he doesn't ruin it. If he can prove that he can work into the offense, than I'll gladly take back what I said, but so far he hasn't shown me anything to believe otherwise.

[pillwenney]

Given Kevin's age and years in the league I think this is who he is! I like Kevin Martin to a certain degree, but as the lead scorer it's not his role. When Martin tries to get 30 on his own, which that has been his game since Artest left, he isn't the same player as when he gets his points in the flow of the offense.

I'm not even disagreeing with this. What I am saying is that he has been doing this out of necessity. We saw when we had Ron, and to a degree Brad, that Kevin is more than capable of playing within an offense. This hasn't been how things have gone in the past year because the team hasn't had any other options that it has known of.

This isn't who Kevin is--it is who he has had to be. He's not a playmaker, he's essentially a finisher. I think of him as kind of an Amare of SGs. He is at his best when things are running through other players, and then because of that, his defender is off balance. In that situation, he is an extremely useful, efficient, and dynamic scorer.

Anyway, I've made my position clear. Martin has been a ball-stopper and it's been killing us. We seem to be developing some chemistry so I hope when Martin comes back, he doesn't ruin it. If he can prove that he can work into the offense, than I'll gladly take back what I said, but so far he hasn't shown me anything to believe otherwise.

You mean other than his entire career before last year?

[Wolfay]

Given Kevin's age and years in the league I think this is who he is! I like Kevin Martin to a certain degree, but as the lead scorer it's not his role. When Martin tries to get 30 on his own, which that has been his game since Artest left, he isn't the same player as when he gets his points in the flow of the offense.

I'm not even disagreeing with this. What I am saying is that he has been doing this out of necessity. We saw when we had Ron, and to a degree Brad, that Kevin is more than capable of playing within an offense. This hasn't been how things have gone in the past year because the team hasn't had any other options that it has known of.

This isn't who Kevin is--it is who he has had to be. He's not a playmaker, he's essentially a finisher. I think of him as kind of an Amare of SGs. He is at his best when things are running through other players, and then because of that, his defender is off balance. In that situation, he is an extremely useful, efficient, and dynamic scorer.

Anyway, I've made my position clear. Martin has been a ball-stopper and it's been killing us. We seem to be developing some chemistry so I hope when Martin comes back, he doesn't ruin it. If he can prove that he can work into the offense, than I'll gladly take back what I said, but so far he hasn't shown me anything to believe otherwise.

You mean other than his entire career before last year?

You mean lose games? Did we even have a system and any sense of chemistry since Adelman left? If he works when he comes back, fine. If he doesn't work, that's fine too. I've already said this.

I don't know what else to say to stop this Martin man-crush people have.

[Nicky Nix Nook]

Given Kevin's age and years in the league I think this is who he is! I like Kevin Martin to a certain degree, but as the lead scorer it's not his role. When Martin tries to get 30 on his own, which that has been his game since Artest left, he isn't the same player as when he gets his points in the flow of the offense.

I'm not even disagreeing with this. What I am saying is that he has been doing this out of necessity. We saw when we had Ron, and to a degree Brad, that Kevin is more than capable of playing within an offense. This hasn't been how things have gone in the past year because the team hasn't had any other options that it has known of.

This isn't who Kevin is--it is who he has had to be. He's not a playmaker, he's essentially a finisher. I think of him as kind of an Amare of SGs. He is at his best when things are running through other players, and then because of that, his defender is off balance. In that situation, he is an extremely useful, efficient, and dynamic scorer.

Anyway, I've made my position clear. Martin has been a ball-stopper and it's been killing us. We seem to be developing some chemistry so I hope when Martin comes back, he doesn't ruin it. If he can prove that he can work into the offense, than I'll gladly take back what I said, but so far he hasn't shown me anything to believe otherwise.

You mean other than his entire career before last year?

You mean lose games? Did we even have a system and any sense of chemistry since Adelman left? If he works when he comes back, fine. If he doesn't work, that's fine too. I've already said this.

I don't know what else to say to stop this Martin man-crush people have.

Martin's the primary reason we even won 17 games last season.

[pillwenney]

You mean lose games? Did we even have a system and any sense of chemistry since Adelman left? If he works when he comes back, fine. If he doesn't work, that's fine too. I've already said this.

I don't know what else to say to stop this Martin man-crush people have.

No, the point is that Kevin was perfectly fine and productive playing off of Ron and Brad. With Ron being the main player through whom the offense was initiated, Kevin found a lot of shots and was still a very productive player. He wasn't just being isolated and stopping the ball. In fact he pretty much never did that. The ball was usually in the hands of Brad, Ron, and Mike/Beno. Kevin fit in despite not being iso'd the way he has been in the last year. That is who Kevin Martin is. He is at his best playing off of a first option and getting the touches that a second option usually gets, while giving you the production of a first option. That is Kevin Martin in a nutshell.

That 07-08 team didn't win only 38 games because Kevin wasn't a good enough second option. In fact you could blame it on pretty much everything but that. You could blame it on the fact that Ron Artest worked fine as a first option, but he just simply didn't have the offensive talent of other first options in the league, or more notably that the team was just bad on the boards and on defense, or that our big man rotation that year was basically an aging Brad Miller, a rookie Spencer Hawes, Mikki freaking Moore, and occasionally included the likes of Shelden Williams, Kenny Thomas, and Justin Williams.

And I don't know what else you want me to say. I think I've responded to all of your points with logic and reason, in a very non-man crushy way.

[Wolfay]

My man-crush comment wasn't specifically at you mitch, it was more to others who seemed to take any criticism of Martin personally. I appreciate you actually taking the time to write out a well-thought post and logically debate with me. Anyway I think both you and I can agree that we can't go much further on this, at least until we see some more games.