Defense: Scottie Pippen vs Michael Jordan

[Barstool Blues]

Honestly for me, the fact that this is even in doubt baffles my mind. There is no doubt in my mind that Scottie Pippen was the better defensive player and (no question) the greatest defensive perimeter player of all time...and I actually find Jordan UNDERRATED DEFENSIVELY...at least in the fact that a lot of people say he is overrated when while not up to Pippen's level he is still the greatest defensive player of all time at sg. I'll say now, that all the perimeter players who have won DPOY Year...did not deserve it...may it have been Jordan in 88 (Hakeem deserved it that year), Payton (wasn't even the most important defensive player on this team...Kemp was), Artest (look at Payton but replace Kemp with Jermaine O'neal) etc, etc. The fact of the matter is big men just are a lot more important and make more of an impact on defense, period. If you don't (or can't) understand that, then you seriously know nothing about this sport.

Now to the point of that. Scottie Pippen in 1995 actually DESERVED the DPOY award. Jordan leaves in 94 (2nd best defensive player during first threepeat), Grant in 95 season (3rd best defensive player during first threepeat) and Pippen leads the league in steals with 2.9, leads the league in drating (the only perimeter player to ever do that), and has the Bulls at 2ND in defense with that line up of defensive holes and what does the media do? Gives the DPOY to Mutombo because he averaged 4bpg. Last I heard a steal was a definite turnover while a block shot could easily land back in the other teams hand...and thats with out mentioning that Pippen averaged 1.1bpg along with those 2.9spg. Stats don't even tell a whole story either, what Pippen did defensively goes way beyond stats. Scottie was effecting the game defensively like a great defensive big man in the 94 and especially the 95 seasons. Hell they were even saying how he looked like he didn't have enough left in the tank offensively during that season because of how much energy he used up defensively. How many super stars have they ever said that about other then Pippen? None.

As I said before, I actually think jordan is somewhat underrated defensively, but it seriously makes me cringe when people actually say he was a better defensive player then Pippen was...that is just a joke in my eyes.

[Jordan23Forever]

Thanks for sharing your uninformed opinion. A legitimate case can be made for Pippen being better than Jordan defensively peak vs. peak. To act like it's a "joke" to compare them shows that you're clearly biased. Jordan was:

- a 9 time defensive first team member (despite retiring twice and being robbed in 1987), tops all time
- DPOY and top 6 in DPOY voting for like a decade straight
- the only player until that time to record 200+ steals/100+ blocks in the same season...and he did it twice in consecutive years
- considered by many to be the best defensive player in the league until his retirement in 1993.

They each had advantages on the other defensively, and both were elite in every defensive area (individual/team/help/off the ball defense; the exception being Pippen's post defense, where he wasn't as stellar as elsewhere). Their defensive primes did not coincide exactly, either, which is why younger fans tend to spout this "Pippen is worlds better than Jordan defensively" -- they tend to only have been fans from '95 onward. Jordan's defensive prime was from '88-'93, and Pippen's was from '92-'97.

How was Hakeem more deserving than Jordan in '88 when Jordan's team had a better DRtg (3rd vs. 4th), and Jordan had less help defensively than Hakeem, who had a fellow defensive first team member in Rodney McCray (Jordan had Oakley, who was a solid, not spectacular at that point, post defender; and a foul-prone, bech-warming 20 mpg Pippen/Grant). Jordan also finished 5th in DRtg that year among all players, and recorded 259 steals/131 blocks, which is absolutely unheard of; his disruptive defense was THE reason why Chicago ranked as highly defensively as they did. Tell me again how he was undeserving? While you're at it, tell my why that's a bigger injustice than him being ROBBED of even a second team selection in 1987, when he became the first player to ever record 200+ stl/100+ blks in the same season along with excellent man to man defense.

[kaiiu2324]

One huge advantage for Pippen defensively over Jordan was that he got to gaurd Jordan. If you guard Jordan everyday at practice, then im sure guarding other wings in the 90s was a piece of cake in comparison.

[Jordan23Forever]

One huge advantage for Pippen defensively over Jordan was that he got to gaurd Jordan. If you guard Jordan everyday at practice, then im sure guarding other wings in the 90s was a piece of cake in comparison.

Phil Jackson and Tex Winter actually made that point in a book I read. They said that the theory behind putting Pippen on MJ in practice was that if he could guard MJ, he could guard anybody.

[ronnymac2]

To the OP: I agree that many wings didn't actually deserve DPOY. Actually, no wing ever does as long as there are all-time great defensive bigs in the league. That includes Scottie. Scottie not winning DPOY in 95 isn't an injustice.

I do believe Scottie is the best perimeter defender in NBA history, but Jordan is close. An argument can be made for MJ, too. I'd argue for Scottie, but choosing MJ isn't crazy.


To J23F: You always say Pippen's post d wasn't up to par with everything else. I don't think that's true. He actually shut down Charles Barkley in a game in 1995 (so no Grant, Rodman, or Jordan providing help). Barkley. One of the most dominant interior scorers ever. And in other games I've seen/remember, he actually looks very good defending his man in the post. He fronts well, feels where the defender is going quickly and reacts accordingly, gets steals, strips the ball a la Karl Malone, pokes the ball away, etc. He also boxes out for defensive boards well (I consider it an aspect of post d). Why do you think that's a relative weakness?

[Jordan23Forever]

Several players (e.g., Mashburn, Penny) abused Pippen in the post pretty frequently. It simply wasn't his strongest area. He wasn't "weak" there, per se, but he wasn't nearly as good as he was in other defensive areas. Jordan was a far superior post defender, actually; it's one of the clearest differences defensively between the two of them (i.e., the area where there's the biggest gap between their respective abilities).

[BrutallyHonest]

To the OP: I agree that many wings didn't actually deserve DPOY. Actually, no wing ever does as long as there are all-time great defensive bigs in the league. That includes Scottie. Scottie not winning DPOY in 95 isn't an injustice.

I do believe Scottie is the best perimeter defender in NBA history, but Jordan is close. An argument can be made for MJ, too. I'd argue for Scottie, but choosing MJ isn't crazy.


To J23F: You always say Pippen's post d wasn't up to par with everything else. I don't think that's true. He actually shut down Charles Barkley in a game in 1995 (so no Grant, Rodman, or Jordan providing help). Barkley. One of the most dominant interior scorers ever. And in other games I've seen/remember, he actually looks very good defending his man in the post. He fronts well, feels where the defender is going quickly and reacts accordingly, gets steals, strips the ball a la Karl Malone, pokes the ball away, etc. He also boxes out for defensive boards well (I consider it an aspect of post d). Why do you think that's a relative weakness?

I disagree. 1995 was the year Pippen definitely deserved DPOY. A SF leading the league in defensive rating (and having his team as the 2nd best defensive team in the league) with Will Perdue as his starting center and a rookie Dickey Simpkins at PF is flat out ridiculous. The fact is the DPOY is a media-driven award and Pippen was never popular with the media. The coaches knew better. From 1994 thru 1997 who was the leading vote-getter every year for All-Defensive first team? Scottie Pippen. Even in 1996 when Payton won DPOY Pippen was the only player with unanimous first place votes for first team All-defense.

This is just a glimpse of what he had to do in '95. Look at how weak that interior defense is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

[Mamba Venom]

Pip overall

but if Jordan wasnt busy scoring all those points it might have been different

[bastillon]

How was Hakeem more deserving than Jordan in '88 when Jordan's team had a better DRtg (3rd vs. 4th), and Jordan had less help defensively than Hakeem, who had a fellow defensive first team member in Rodney McCray (Jordan had Oakley, who was a solid, not spectacular at that point, post defender; and a foul-prone, bech-warming 20 mpg Pippen/Grant). Jordan also finished 5th in DRtg that year among all players, and recorded 259 steals/131 blocks, which is absolutely unheard of; his disruptive defense was THE reason why Chicago ranked as highly defensively as they did. Tell me again how he was undeserving? While you're at it, tell my why that's a bigger injustice than him being ROBBED of even a second team selection in 1987, when he became the first player to ever record 200+ stl/100+ blks in the same season along with excellent man to man defense.

nice manipulating, lemme try to tell you all what REALLY happened there.
Bulls were 3rd in DRtg in '88, the year Jordan got the award. the next year, Oakley left and they were 11th... and Oakley was replaced by good to very good defensive player in H.Grant.

I had an argument with this guy once and he was an MJ fan. he argued that Krause stopped MJ from winning ~10 titles, because of the Oakley trade. he told me numerous times how Oakley was great player defensively and how long they had to wait to regain the team defense they had with Oakley playing instead of Grant.

so Oakley wasn't just solid as what you're trying to tell us. he was a key to Bulls' success defensively that year and after he left they weren't that great defensive team. Oakley was a tough mofo and during his Bulls days he was busy rebounding at GOAT level with 21.2, 20.4 and 21.7 rebounding rate. he was GOAT level defensive rebounder with ~30 DRB%. I'm thinking millionaire man's Chuck Hayes. he was a game changer defensively, not just a solid player.

you better explain how Bulls IMPROVED without MJ defensively in '94. MJ was a very good defender for his size and position, just not a DPOTY level.

Pippen easily in this comparison. if any small was capable of anchoring the defense, it was Pippen.

[NO-KG-AI]

I think Jordan was better by a clear margin, even with carrying a much heavier offensive duty.

[Harison]

I pretty much have them on the same level (maybe slight edge to Jordan), but as NO-KG-AI mentioned, when you are THAT good defensively and still doing everything offensively, MJ gets extra points.

[magicman1978]

I give the slight edge to Jordan. There were certain players Pippen was better and defending and vice versa. However, I always seem to remember Jordan being the one who made most of the key defensive stops / plays.

I remember the play where a rookie Allen Iverson crossed over a 34 year old Michael Jordan for a long jumper. That play was being replayed over and over on ESPN. It's even on NBA.com as Iverson's top moment. He crossed over a 34 year old Jordan for a jumper. He was carrying the ball and he didn't even shake him that bad. And the only reason people make a big deal out of it is because the person getting crossed over was Jordan. That shows me what kind of defensive reputation that Jordan had. A 34 year old well past his prime Jordan at that.

[jazzfan1971]

Pippen was one of a handful of players that I ever thought gave John Stockton trouble defensively. Him and Payton really.

He was like playing underneath an 8ft sticky tarp. Jordan was a good defender, but, nowhere near Pippen IMHO.

[Jordan23Forever]

nice manipulating, lemme try to tell you all what REALLY happened there.
Bulls were 3rd in DRtg in '88, the year Jordan got the award. the next year, Oakley left and they were 11th... and Oakley was replaced by good to very good defensive player in H.Grant.

I had an argument with this guy once and he was an MJ fan. he argued that Krause stopped MJ from winning ~10 titles, because of the Oakley trade. he told me numerous times how Oakley was great player defensively and how long they had to wait to regain the team defense they had with Oakley playing instead of Grant.

so Oakley wasn't just solid as what you're trying to tell us. he was a key to Bulls' success defensively that year and after he left they weren't that great defensive team. Oakley was a tough mofo and during his Bulls days he was busy rebounding at GOAT level with 21.2, 20.4 and 21.7 rebounding rate. he was GOAT level defensive rebounder with ~30 DRB%. I'm thinking millionaire man's Chuck Hayes. he was a game changer defensively, not just a solid player.

you better explain how Bulls IMPROVED without MJ defensively in '94. MJ was a very good defender for his size and position, just not a DPOTY level.

Pippen easily in this comparison. if any small was capable of anchoring the defense, it was Pippen.

Nice manipulation, but no. Anyone who watched Oakley in 1988 knows that he was just solid. He would later (early 90's) become a very good post defender. He was never any kind of defensive force. As for the team's drop off defensively in '89, did you notice the drop off in Jordan's disruptive defense? (259 stl/131 blk to 234/65) There's your answer.

lol @ calling Oakley a "game changer" defensively - what a joke. Double lol @ calling MJ "a very good defender for his position."

[JordansBulls]

Source: GoogleBooks

Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link

“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”

“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”

[Barstool Blues]

One huge advantage for Pippen defensively over Jordan was that he got to gaurd Jordan. If you guard Jordan everyday at practice, then im sure guarding other wings in the 90s was a piece of cake in comparison.

Phil Jackson and Tex Winter actually made that point in a book I read. They said that the theory behind putting Pippen on MJ in practice was that if he could guard MJ, he could guard anybody.

That goes both ways...when you are already playing against the best defensive perimeter player in the league everyone else is bound to be pie. Their pick up games during practice are supposed to be legendary.

[Joseph17]

Thanks for sharing your uninformed opinion. A legitimate case can be made for Pippen being better than Jordan defensively peak vs. peak. To act like it's a "joke" to compare them shows that you're clearly biased. Jordan was:

- a 9 time defensive first team member (despite retiring twice and being robbed in 1987), tops all time
- DPOY and top 6 in DPOY voting for like a decade straight
- the only player until that time to record 200+ steals/100+ blocks in the same season...and he did it twice in consecutive years
- considered by many to be the best defensive player in the league until his retirement in 1993.

I hate when people do this. It's not only you. Plenty of people on realgm do this. Player A is better than player B because he was on the all NBA first team more times and he won more MVP awards. That does nothing for your argument. There were plenty of times when guys didn't deserve the awards they got.

[GreenDreamer]

This is Pippen, and really by a significant margin. Mike was great, one of the best I've ever seen in the back court, but Pippen was the best I've ever seen, period. He did everything at a high level.

1. Exceptional man defender who was able to stay in front of just about anyone.

2. Tremendous at ball denial. The best way to shut a guy down is to never let him touch the ball to begin with. Rodman was the best at this when he was at his peak.

3. Drew many, many charges. The best I've ever seen at doing this. As great as blocks and steals are, charges are the numero uno "mindf***" in the game. You can get a guy doubting that he can even move with the ball without picking up a foul. You get a guy doing that, and you can stick a fork in him. He's done.

4. Extremely long and athletic. Played MUCH bigger than Jordan. I always thought that Pip was a much better ingame dunker than Jordan. Mike had great ups and body control, but he would kind of go around people, more often than not. Scottie just tomahawked his right over anyone. This carried over on the defense end. Taller, longer, bigger, a better leaper in my opinion. He was just hell on wheels athletically.

5. Super high BBIQ. Studied his guy inside and out. Always seemed to know where to be.

6. Could guard anyone on the court, in short doses, which made their switches very effective.

7. Had a knack for big steals and blocks that few players have ever had, IMO. Extremely adept at doing this straight up and on blindside help. Youtube has a two part video called "Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender" Watching that will almost bring a tear to your eye. They were talking about this on the Bulls board. Nasty, nasty stuff in there.


People have seemed to have forgotten how crazy good Scottie was. I am a diehard Celtic fan, but he is one of my all-time favorite players.

[Frosty]

Tough call, Jordan and Pippen were 2 of the top perimeter players I've ever seen.

GD listed Pippen's strengths

Jordan was cat quick, read the passing lanes very well. Was extremely dangerous as a help blocker. Is overlooked as a dangerous on the ball defender (lots of players stated how they were forced to protect the ball at all times vs him)

He could gamble and recover like no one I've seen. He also came up with so many game changing plays that I give him a big edge over Pippen here.

Overall they were a treat to watch and Phil's nickname of his "dobermans" was very appropriate. These guys could demoralize a team like no perimeter players I've seen,

[Time for Change]

http://www.vimeo.com/7161677