Time for a new defensive system

armageddon · Post #1 » by **armageddon** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:38 pm

This team is either old or getting old and they are playing the same defense that was designed for the younger pre-KG team. With Perk and KG often required to hedge screens out near the 3-pt line, they are frequently out of position to rebound.

This defense requires a high level of energy which this team may not have anymore, or may not at least have enough of. Is it time for the so called defensive guiness to come up with a new system. Should we be playing more zone to help our rebounding. Does this require a Bill Belichekian change.

captain green · Post #2 » by **captain green** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:56 pm

Maybe, were still holding teams to 88 points a nite thats 2nd best in the league and our dif is 10.18 thats the top. Plus our steals are 3rd in the league with dif being 2nd.
I don't know we are slower with kg, p but I read somewhere that when your fg% is up your rebounds are down.
We have the highest fg% in the game so far.
Not sure maybe we can do some roaming cheats with same structured d but tighten the lanes a bit, only one doing that right now is perk and williams.
ALL STATS TAKEN FROM: http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_ ... &prd=1#top

Hemingway · Post #3 » by **Hemingway** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Maybe its time for this messageboard to get some new posters.

captain green · Post #4 » by **captain green** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:30 pm

Hemingway wrote:Maybe its time for this messageboard to get some new posters.

Maybe you should post some more of those trades you post. I don't understand your quote are we boring you?

Come on hemingway your better than being bitter...

Post #5 » by **sully00** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:55 pm

I understand the concerns but at the same time Boston has the highest rated defense the 7th highest rated offense and the 2nd strongest strength of schedule in the league. They may not be what they were 2 years ago, at least 1-3 but 4 and 5 are a lot better and 6-10 aren't even comparable. I think at times we forget that this team is actually breaking in 3 new rotation players in the top 8. You also have to remember that especially early in the season teams don't just get up to play Boston they know if they don't they are going to get embarassed, we get everyones best at least in NOV.

I also think that they have changed up some by extending out to the 3 pt line more because teams were really starting to fire away and they were getting hurt by open 3's. Now as you extend out you are going to open up the lane and this requires your guards to do a better job on the glass. As the new saying goes as Rondo goes so goes the Celtics in the three losses Rondo 2, 4, 2 on the glass he is avg over 4 in the wins.

BillessuR6 · Post #6 » by **BillessuR6** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:04 pm

I would just like to see us implement some zone defenses...it would give us a little more diversity on the defensive end and we could surprise a team or two when things are not going well...

We are really starting to get too predictable, IMO. Especially on offensive end but also on defense. Zone is always a nice option when you are down big because you can break and change the rhythm of the opposing team...

Post #7 » by **canman1971** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:30 pm

Maybe it is time our players get their thumbs out of their asses and start playing defense with some frigging intensity!

captain green · Post #8 » by **captain green** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:18 am

yeah, I think were all(most) in the same way of thinking. I wasn't even thinking about the newbies on the team that right there is most of it prolly, and I completly agree with the rondo statement those losses were his worst games at rebounding. but all in all I THINK THATS PROMISING TO HAVE A 9-3 RECORD WITH 3 NEW PLAYERS. it'll get better for sure. Who has the strongest strength of schedule do you know ? ahh I can find out..

sully00 wrote:I understand the concerns but at the same time Boston has the highest rated defense the 7th highest rated offense and the 2nd strongest strength of schedule in the league. They may not be what they were 2 years ago, at least 1-3 but 4 and 5 are a lot better and 6-10 aren't even comparable. I think at times we forget that this team is actually breaking in 3 new rotation players in the top 8. You also have to remember that especially early in the season teams don't just get up to play Boston they know if they don't they are going to get embarassed, we get everyones best at least in NOV.

I also think that they have changed up some by extending out to the 3 pt line more because teams were really starting to fire away and they were getting hurt by open 3's. Now as you extend out you are going to open up the lane and this requires your guards to do a better job on the glass. As the new saying goes as Rondo goes so goes the Celtics in the three losses Rondo 2, 4, 2 on the glass he is avg over 4 in the wins.

Havlicek17 · Post #9 » by **Havlicek17** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:49 am

armageddon wrote:This team is either old or getting old and they are playing the same defense that was designed for the younger pre-KG team. With Perk and KG often required to hedge screens out near the 3-pt line, they are frequently out of position to rebound.

This defense requires a high level of energy which this team may not have anymore, or may not at least have enough of. Is it time for the so called defensive guiness to come up with a new system. Should we be playing more zone to help our rebounding. Does this require a Bill Belichekian change.

I thought Tibs came to the Celtics the same year that Ray and KG came here? It doesn't matter. I think the defensive system we play is fine, we just need to play with more energy. The breakdowns on the perimeter defense are the problem.

Post #10 » by **sully00** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:10 am

captain green wrote:yeah, I think were all(most) in the same way of thinking. I wasn't even thinking about the newbies on the team that right there is most of it prolly, and I completly agree with the rondo statement those losses were his worst games at rebounding. but all in all I THINK THATS PROMISING TO HAVE A 9-3 RECORD WITH 3 NEW PLAYERS. it'll get better for sure. Who has the strongest strength of schedule do you know ? ahh I can find out..

We had the strongest the last I check it is just on the top of the Basketball-Reference Celtics page. That rebounding number and Rondo should be interesting to follow. I wasn't looking at the Rondo thing in a negative way more of a postive at this point Rondo grabs 4 boards and we are 5-1 (we are also undefeated when he makes a FT).

EJay33 · Post #11 » by **EJay33** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:19 am

#1 in the league in defensive efficiency
#2 in the league in oPPG

grow up..

EJay33 · Post #12 » by **EJay33** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:20 am

Also you can't even play zone in the NBA. These guys are actually good. You can't just give up open shots.

BillessuR6 · Post #13 » by **BillessuR6** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:19 am

Godmoney wrote:Also you can't even play zone in the NBA. These guys are actually good. You can't just give up open shots.

If you play zone defense well you aren`t necessarily giving up open shots. Just because this is the NBA you think players can easily beat it? You always have guys like Rondo, Marquis on other teams who can`t shoot. Besides you need a lot more to beat a zone than just shooting the ball well...

PPAW4Life · Post #14 » by **PPAW4Life** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:47 am

We will never play a zone.

Never.

The only way we do play a zone is if half our team get season ending injuries.

Zone defenses are for teams who can't play defense period.

BillessuR6 · Post #15 » by **BillessuR6** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:07 am

That is ridiculous! Great defensive teams can also play great zone defense. Like I said before, it would be nice to have another defensive system we could use if things are not going our way. Sometimes you are down big and the other team is in a great rhythm, you can break that up by going to a zone. I have seen it happen hundreds of times...

GuyClinch · Post #16 » by **GuyClinch** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:25 pm

But as Sully pointed out the OP is off-base. Our defense has been good. You need to look at the pace adjusted numbers at basketball reference. The nice thing about some team statistics is that they are really meaningful and without any real issues.

Pete

MVE85 · Post #17 » by **MVE85** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:49 pm

thebirdman wrote:That is ridiculous! Great defensive teams can also play great zone defense. Like I said before, it would be nice to have another defensive system we could use if things are not going our way. Sometimes you are down big and the other team is in a great rhythm, you can break that up by going to a zone. I have seen it happen hundreds of times...

I dont know if you have ever played competitive basketball but zone defense is for either slow or lazy teams that cant keep up with an offense. Zones can be beat by slashers or swift ball movement....2 things the NBA is full of. The only time I have seen zone work is at syracuse with the 2-3 they run, even then....its not great. This team is has a phenomenal defense as it sits today, they fight over picks and generally dont have issues keeping with their assignments. The numbers dont lie...

BillessuR6 · Post #18 » by **BillessuR6** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:47 pm

MVE85 wrote:I dont know if you have ever played competitive basketball but zone defense is for either slow or lazy teams that cant keep up with an offense. Zones can be beat by slashers or swift ball movement....2 things the NBA is full of. The only time I have seen zone work is at syracuse with the 2-3 they run, even then....its not great. This team is has a phenomenal defense as it sits today, they fight over picks and generally dont have issues keeping with their assignments. The numbers dont lie...

I agree that this team can play the best defense in the league and it is our defense that brought us a ring. But every 10 games a few minutes of zone wouldn`t kill us...I know how zones can be beaten but it is not as easy as it sounds. If teams don`t practice playing against the zone (and most teams in the NBA don`t) it can be a nice surprise tactics...

Post #19 » by **sully00** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:54 pm

Essentially what Boston does is a match up zone with the defensive rotations you can't play a true zone in the NBA, because you can't camp out in the lane. But that isn't the important part of the issue when you play a zone your goal is to force the offense to shoot over it, somehow I don't think Boston desires to force NBA teams to rain open 3's on their heads, that is the biggest problem we have right now. Are you going to extend your zone out to the 3 point arc? If you do I can tell you what the smell you are smelling is toast.

return2glory · Post #20 » by **return2glory** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:24 pm

Hell no. Tom T. is the man. I'm grateful he is on the Celtics. He has made the Celtics what they are defensively over the past 2 seasons and this season. And KG has to get a lot of credit for the improved defense over the past 2 years.

The reason we are struggling a little on defense is because of old legs. KG isn't as dominate on defense right now and Wallace can't play any defense away from the paint. If anyone noticed, Sheed can't move his feet away from the block. He has not lateral quickness away more. And is a bad help defender.

Perkins, Rondo and Pierce are still doing there thing on the defensive end. Daniels is also a very solid defender. JR is very solid on defense as well, but doesn't get any time. Scalabrine is also an underrated defensive player.